New Hybrid Class A / Tube amp kit coming soon!

[Deleted]

First Impression:

The Sunrise arrived from Mike, as usual, expertly packed. So well packed that I didn't see the power supply in there at first. (I get too excited)

This is one of the first so some changes may have been made to the one that Jeremy is sending to Mike for me.

This version is:



I'm using the Beyer DT990 and the first thing that hits you is the sheer power of the bass. My first thought was whether the power supply was man enough - 24v but not yer Little Pinkie type of thing.

This amp is warm with a huge bass quantity and attack. It also goes extremely loud and makes the V8 seem underpowered by comparison. It has a very big presentation to say the least.

I tried some YELLO. (Touch)

The Expert (TRack 1)
Here's the thing - the amp has lots of bass weight and yet on the opening sequence where you hear some 'scat' singing, there is no lift on the mail voices which is normally a sign of mid bass boost. There is a bass 'thump' which you can follow (in pitch) as it goes down! It goes very low.

Once the song gets going, everything seems very clearly separated so that enormous bass isn't wiping everything out at all. There is a closed cymbal in this track that is portayed really naturally so treble response seems good with no artificial sizzling (which I hate). It's not over-emphasised and yet is really clearly defined above the bass weight.

Even very low rumbles seem to be placed in the stereo mix which is something that you rarely hear on speakers (Unless they're really good ones). You literally spot where the rumbles are coming from whereas on most 'normal' speakers, you would hear the rumble but placing it can be problematic.

You'd Better Hide

The opening really 'sucks' your ears into the mix and you feel as though the sounds are surrounding you. When the bass and lower drums enter, you can almost 'feel' it. In fact, the bass plays really low melodies at the end of vocal phrases which are easily distinguished and pitch in the low frequencies are extremely clearly defined. There are extremely low thuds in this music and the Beyers throw the thuds out with ease on this amp. I reckon it's down in sub-woofer areas.

You can hear faders going in and out as well, so there's no shortage of clarity above that bass.

Tangier Blue

This has a huge bass riff but you still hear the brush strokes on the drum above it very easily. You can clearly hear the voice humming in unison with a synth as well after the first phrase and you start to become very aware of sounds coming in and out of the whole mix above that bass riff.

There is a guitar solo at the end of the track which is set well back and you can hear that it's in its own acoustic.

So, the Sunrise gives out an enormous bass which must be very quick because of the clarity of what comes through above. It's very involving.

My thoughts about that bass made me reach for some orchestral so I put on Vaughan Williams London Symphony which has a slightly tricky opening in that you just have rumbling noises from double basses creating a 'steamy' or 'fog' like effect but it can be hard to latch on to on recordings.

On the Sunrise - easy. I could clearly follow the quiet double bass line while again, I could easily focus on 'spots', where the woodwind come from (the short 'wake up' phrases from the woodwind and other strings.) Once the orchestra is going full whack, you realise how loud the amp is!! It has an enormous dynamic range. You get the feeling that it goes quieter and louder than other amps so the music grows rapidly in crescendos.

Once the brass go full whack, I always listen for 'aggressive' treble. Brass give it away. This is as smooth as a babies bum. You get the brass 'rasp' but you also get the 'tone' which is very important on brass sound.

This amp has a beautiful 'tone' and is extremely dynamic, even on what I feel is a toy power supply because I've been spoilt in that area. Mike sent a Russian tube with it and the sound is absolutely enormous to say the least. It is a lovely 'tube' sound with amazing clarity above the huge quantities of bass that are obtainable from the DT990.

I love this combo. It is addictive and engaging and there is definitely some kind of synergy with the Beyers. It seems to control that bass amazing well actually, making this huge impact but letting other (often lost) sounds through. I would love a pair of speakers like this actually.

Once I've got over the amazing sound that I'm getting, I'll bring out the K701. This may be a good match with it as well, I suspect. I can't get past the bass impact and slam that just doesn't get in the way of subtleties - it must have a very fast response. The bass can virtually be felt ..... in a headphone!! (Not to mention the imaging which is also very, very good)

Thank you Mike, I am SO glad you put me on to this, since I hadn't taken a lot of notice being ham fisted so not really a DIY er. Jeremy sells these amps made up if you can't put it together. I had a look at the instructions and they are excellent. The detail in the explanation is brilliant - telling you which way round capacitors go and how to solder as well!! Whoever wrote the book is a genius because they know what people 'unsure' of themselves need to know. It was actually a reassuring read. One thing I didn't easily find though - the power supply orientation. I saw straight away that it's 24v dc but couldn't see which way round the plug should be. (Then, after texting Mike, he told me to calm down ...... he'd sent a power supply - look in the box!!!)

Maybe that needs to be made clearer in case people buy without a power supply and get their own? I'm only saying this because I blew a diode on my Mini Ape through stupidity and it's easily done.

The instructions are SO good, I reckon I could do it and I haven't soldered for 20 years!!! In fact, I quite fancied having a go after I read the book.

I REALLY like this amp. It has powerful dynamics. A fantastic 'clarity' above a warm, fat bass so it has plenty of slam and is fast and I haven't even mentioned much about the sense of space and beautiful tone that it has.

Congratulations Jeremy and Frans. It's a cracker!!! I'm so glad I'm getting one!!!!!

Ian

[PinkFloyd]

Wait until you listen to it at night Ian..... gets even better

[Deleted]

It has an amazing bass, without taking much out elsewhere. Also, the top seems to sound very natural with no 'tizzing' on cymbals. It's quite funny that such a little amp sounds so big!!

Ian

[PinkFloyd]

Yes, just what I found too Ian... a very "grand" quality to it that you normally only experience on "top" quality amps... a sense of scale, a largess of detail and kick arse dynamics.

I could also detect all the individual layers of the sound.... much in the same way as you can see the layers on a vanilla slice, you can hear the layers through the Sunrise... In fact, I would liken the signature to a vanilla slice... most small amps are more of a sponge cake with all the flavours packed into one spongy piece whereas the Sunrise has individual layers... It also has a hint of chocolate, some nuts and candy floss... all the fun of the fair and a listen JAM packed with energy and pizzaz.

Mellifluous in tone yet exciting at the same time, a rare mixture of organic and warmth.... like driving in an open top car on a hot tarmac road with wild nettles at the road side and the wind coursing through your hair... you are hit on the head by a flying bee and you can smell a mixture of exhaust fumes AND sense the nature that is surrounding you.... it's real, it's alive and it is exciting.

Not your usual urban traffic jam sitting inside an air con cabin.... nope, the Sunrise actually takes you out into wild country for a truly magical ride.

Good point on the polarity of the DC socket Ian, a small thing but maybe someone will plug a centre negative PSU into it.... even if they did, though, no probs as the amp has reverse polarity protection.

The SMPS I sent with it is rated @ 5 amps (IIRC) and the Mama Honker ferrite I fitted onto the lead will help things... slide it along the lead to the amp side for maximum effect.

Frans, if we were to go down the regulated / linear route would a 1amp supply be adequate? I am guessing that 500mA would be adequate but 1 amp possibly better.

In this amp, though, the switched mode PSU is ideal because of the "size" of it..... do you really want a power supply the size of a house brick powering such a little cutie? IF a regulated / linear PSU makes the Sunrise sound even better (than it already does) then this will be one HELL of an amp.... not just "astounding" but SUPER astounding!

Question is, will a regulated PSU make a night and day improvement or will the law of diminishing returns kick in..... only one way to find out

Glad you are enjoying it Ian. To my ears it is the perfect partner for the DT-990 and the synergy is just "made to measure"..... if it "does" get any better than this then count me in for a large slice.... I will definitely be experimenting to try and go from roller coaster 3D to "space launch" (with chocolate and nuts) warp drive "4D" type of thing.... "surround sound with added walnut whips floating in their own space and time"

I feel that the valve is at the heart of the Sunrise (set the controls for the heart of the sunrise) and, as well as Frans' fantastic design, contributes to the "end" sound.

It may be worth investing in something REALLY special for the sunrise.... after all, it only needs "one" so hard to obtain NOS are usually a lot cheaper if the seller only has "one".... pairs are usually more expensive

The Russians are a fantastic valve but I'd love to hear how a bugle boy or a Mullard compares.... will have to wait until you send it back before I can try that Ian

Take your time with it, I'm more of a "winter" headphone listener so as long as it's back tomorrow I'm happy I hear you guys are having a mini "heatwave"? Not up here....17.6C max up here today and generally misty.... I need the Sunrise to keep me warm!

Only kidding, hold onto it for this Month.... I have a couple of other amps to try out (including the Musical Paradise Miguel sent me a few months back).

All the best,

Mike.

[Deleted]

24V / 1A minimum for linear regulated power supply..

It has reverse polarity protection but the fuse (accesable from the open slot in the bottom) will blow and have to be replaced afterwards..

[PinkFloyd]

This is one of the first so some changes may have been made to the one that Jeremy is sending to Mike for me.

Mostly the LED colours.... You can dial in more colours.... AFAIK the "production" kits are identical to the pre-release kits.... maybe the OP impedance "choices" have also been changed?

The Pre-release has been jumpered at 68ohm output impedance (you can easily lower that by moving the jumpers / see manual).... you can also change the valve glow LED colour on the pre-release (red/ green / blue) by shifting the jumpers..... all easy to do and no soldering iron required (pop the top plate off to gain "finger access" to the jumpers.)

[PinkFloyd]

Aug 3, 2011 20:57:06 GMT @solderdude said:

24V / 1A minimum for linear regulated power supply..

It has reverse polarity protection but the fuse (accesable from the open slot in the bottom) will blow and have to be replaced afterwards..

Cheers Frans.

SUPERB design by the way, Jeremy is very lucky to have you on board.....

All the best,

Mike.

[Deleted]

The power supply centre pin thing is just one of those stupid things that I have done so often with disastrous results Mike. (as you know) If it's gonna blow, it'll blow on me!!

I loved your description - spot on!!

I actually read the book as well. You know, I could put this together. It's superbly written. It's just tiny points like the orientation of the plug that would worry a nutter like me 'cos of my bad experiences. Once you've blown something, you feel helpless, like I did with the Mini Ape and it kind of instills a fear of doing it again. (Like electric shocks)

Anyway, I saw the built in 'safety' features in the thread as well and that was nice to see. No pops on switch on and off. (That's rather nice) Protection on the power side. (good move for me!!), two choices of output impedance. (Fantastic)

I think there's a bass lift at 68 ohms but it's nice. It's very low and doesn't seem to manifest itself in the mid bass. (Where mens' voices are)

It's superb. I love the weight that you get from it with the retention of the clarity up top. It also has a lot of slam and goes very low. That's what made me wonder about the supply. I didn't realise that the one you sent was a 5 amper!!

One thing - it is prone to noise. That could be my environment with all that hi tech gear around (ha ha) but there is a hint of mains noise at certain points on the volume control and it also reacts to your touch on the volume knob. Let go and it calms down but I'm getting a 'hump' of electro buzz (Not massive) at about 2 o clock on the pot.

Don't forget - I'm ultra sensitive to fizzes and hum and hiss. I'll move the ferrite tomorrow to see if it helps this. However, that's where a good power supply can also help with these things - lowering noise while increasing the dynamic range. (My gawd if it increases I'll buy two!!!!!!!) Where the 'hum' focuses would be far too loud for listening purposes on rock stuff, but you can get close with orchestral. I was listening to orchestral at 12 o clock today; rock is too loud there though. It has a definite point of buzz focus.

I guess I'm spoilt for good power supply!!

I don't think it would be bad to have a big power supply Mike. It wouldn't matter because it's not a portable and would sit on a table. I thinking also of the 'quality' of the supply since it is quite important on these designs.

I did wonder how I was getting such an enormous dynamic range today though and now you've explained it!! That little power supply isn't so little.

Oh ...... no one has mentioned this and it is often taken for granted. The volume pot tracks superbly at the bottom, so it's a quality one for sure. I love it when there's attention to detail like that. Very important listening late at night when you really don't need it loud. I'm staying up especially to listen late at night Mike. Still wearing the suit and dickie bow.

Just had to whack the wick up .... Sanatana - 'Victory is Won' on the Shaman album. The cymbals behind the lead guitar at the start with the closed hi hat in front. No fizz and all placed in different places. That lovely fat string synth sound and when the drums kick off - with that bass ......... Neck hairs big time. It really sounds like humans playing, not a hi fi. The organ solo seems so real because you can hear slight imperfections in the fingers and that solid backing, whacking away with the string pad sound. Stunning on this amp with its drive and power.

Ian

[Garage1217]

Hey Ian, Glad you are enjoying the amp! And for those that have listened to her, I would bet they are all nodding there heads when it comes to your descriptions of the music she produces, especially with one of Mikes select tubes. I could not agree more, especially with my 6n23p / 6h23n "same tube"

The main differences in the current production unit vs. pre are...
- .096 vs .063 FSB board material "a lot thicker on the production board"
- Gloss piano black mask on the pcb with gold wash
- Slight layout changes
- Output impedance on pre-pro was 34 & 68. Production they are 10 and 68.
- A lot of ultra low noise RN resistors were used throughout anyplace that is directly apart of the signal path
- Bias values were changed just recently from 1K / 10K trimmer in the pre to 100R / 20K trimmer in the pro to account for some odd tubes and to make sure the through cap and bypass cap settings worked with both 12v and 6v tubes
- Volume knob diameter was enlarged a few mm / same style as original and has a much better feel to the knob "Mike, Will send you the new knob in the package with Ians parts" And much agreed, the bourns pro audio pot is superb, tracks very tight and is tight tolerance overall.
- Vishay/Roederstein film caps on the input signal side
- A few resistors were changed model wise, not value wise and all are precision tolerance now, even the ones that do not matter that much lol I am just that picky.
- Tube led has individual controls for red, blue and green so you can dial in any color one prefers

On your noise observation, I have only had one other mention it and it turned out to be his particular tube and when he changed it, he has not had any noise since. I know Mikes tubes are darn good so it could be the supply or other equipment? Not sure what to make of it. Mine sits on top of my pc and is dead silent throughout the volume range but we are 115V / 60ish... hz here so that could be the difference with the supply you are using. Just let me know how the full production version / reference design does for you noise wise. Also not sure how Mike has it setup, if input caps are in line or out, or what resistance he has selected and so forth. I will give Mike the recommended reference settings which is the way I set them up out of the box, then you can play around and change things to you liking or keep it the way it is or maybe Mike will set it up the way he likes, up to you guys!

Regards,
Jeremy

[Deleted]

On your noise observation, I have only had one other mention it and it turned out to be his particular tube and when he changed it, he has not had any noise since. I know Mikes tubes are darn good so it could be the supply or other equipment? Not sure what to make of it. Mine sits on top of my pc and is dead silent throughout the volume range but we are 115V / 60ish... hz here so that could be the difference with the supply you are using. Just let me know how the full production version / reference design does for you noise wise. Also not sure how Mike has it setup, if input caps are in line or out, or what resistance he has selected and so forth. I will give Mike the recommended reference settings which is the way I set them up out of the box, then you can play around and change things to you liking or keep it the way it is or maybe Mike will set it up the way he likes, up to you guys!

Yes, the noise is curious. I'll play around moving it today - sometimes with these open designs, it can be a matter of moving them. The Bravo/Indeed/Miridy amps that I had only had to be moved inches to get rid of noise, but in their case, it was there permanently. In this case, it's stronger at about 2 o clock when you're touching the volume pot. 240v 50 hrtz here - I suspect it is the power so I'll play around.

I have a Russian in it and the first thing you notice is the weight and scale of the sound. It's massive!! It also has good clarity and extension without going edgy up top. I really don't like a 'toppy' sound and I feel that this is sometimes interpreted as 'hi fi' and revealing, but it's not for me!!

So far, I've only used the Beyr DT990 with it, but once I have 'tuned in' to its sound, I'll try K701 and Senn HD650 and 600. This could well be an answer for K701 people who suffer from ear bleeding.

This is a lovely 'tubey' sound with a massive dynamic. It's easy to not realise just how loud you're listening too.

It's a good looking amp as well. I really like its proportions. Deeper and flatter than the Bravos etc., and so it looks sleeker. It's definitely a keeper!!

Ian

[PinkFloyd]

Hi Jeremy,

It's pretty much as stock.... just looked over my notes and said this at the time:

"The parts are top quality Jeremy, just a couple of things I changed (as I knew I'd get the bug eventually and didn't want to desolder such small through hole pads).... I didn't fit the 1uF input caps and went for 3.3uF / 50V WIMA MKS4 instead... I didn't fit the 100pF or 100nF ceramics and went for mini WIMA metallised polyester types. The 47uF electrolytic / fitted an Elna Silmic here.... the rest I have left as stock."

I'll fit the stock ceramics on Ian's amp but will keep the 3.3uF input caps I think.

Mike.

[PinkFloyd]

Ian,

I'll send you one of these with your amp:



Will help to shield the valve from RFI

Mike.

[Deleted]

OK, thanks Mike. I'm not sure it's air-born though. It's constant any any room and at the same place on volume. Going from zero to 12 is fine it builds up to 2 and then fades down where source hiss starts to come in. It has a peak at 2. It sounds like mains noise. (Maybe I have a poor mains supply - that's very possible because of where I live)

If you listened up there, you'd be insane!!

I've tried shifting the power lead around and the headphone lead as well as the lead from the source. No effect. I'll try other headphones today.

Trouble is, you get addicted to its sound and start rediscovering your music again.

Ian

[Deleted]

Ian
Using a DMM on the ohms scale, are you able to get a low resistance reading between the front metal part of the potentiometer and a PCB earth point ?
Alex

[PinkFloyd]

I had it sitting on top of my NAD amp one night and it was doing much the same thing.... I turned the NAD completely off (out of Standby) and the noise disappeared as if by magic

If you sit her directly on top of of another piece of equipment that is turned on it may do this..... try siting it away from other equipment maybe?

[Deleted]

I took a long lead out the bedroom window to the apex of the roof and held it high. Turned to 2 o clock and I've attracted every bee in the neighbourhood. I've become a honey daddy. ;-)

I tried all over the house Mike. You live in a squeaky environment up there Mike! The other thing I checked was any other power supplies connected close by. Flame torch next.

Not a big deal but in my case, if there is some kind of problem, I'll get it!! Alex, I do think it's some kind of 'earthing' prob. because it changes intensity with the volume knob being shifted and at top whack fades out again. It's also aware of me touching it .... (the knob - yew!)

At a normal listening level, you don't reach that point. It'll be interesting to see whether the new one does the same.

I may live in the one place where interference rules.

Ian

[mrarroyo]

Please stop posting on how great this amp sounds. My wallet is in hiding ...

[PinkFloyd]

sounds silly but try flipping the figure of 8 lead the other way round.... she wasn't doing all that with me Ian.. (apart from the NAD episode) and was deadly silent across the range of the pot.... maybe try another 24V supply if you have one handy?

[Deleted]

AHAAAAAA. Found it.

I've had some synths and a computer with sequencer stuff turned on in another room of the house and one of them must be sending something down the mains.

I went back to WW2. Lights out curtains drawn, gas and mains electricity off. There was no hum whatsoever with the mains off - in fact, it ran absolutely silent. I knew I was on to something so I persevered.

Opened the curtains - fine.
Turned on the gas - Fine.
Turned on the electricity ......................... FINE!!!
Turned the synths back on .. bees.

They must be sending something down the mains. I need a mains filter then. Anyone know a good cheap one?

Seriously, it's fine now.

However, it is more susceptible to electrical noise than my other gear. I've only been here six months and that's the first time I've heard it here. Had it in the other place but not here.

I love the sound of this amp. I can't stop listening. I stayed up really late last night just playing music. Fantastic amp.

Mike, do Little Pinkies have built in noise suppression? These amps deserve better imo. I know it's cheap and all that to use the Chinese cracker power supply but imo, it's worth putting a good supply into it. The one you've sent is fine, Mike - in fact, I was really puzzled how such a little cracker was giving the dynamics that this amp can give.

However, it is a little prone to electrical noise and some form of suppression would sort it in many households where it will probably be a difficulty.

IMO this amp is worth it. After all, the supply is almost 50% of what it is really but I feel that this is a gem and it's worth the bother.

It's really obvious how much care has gone into production; down to that superb tracking on the volume knob. I was listening last night at a 'tiny' volume. Insanely tiny actually. The sound stays even down there and just grows as you turn up, but best of all, the tracking is dead on.

You don't get this with a lot of gear. (Even expensive sometimes) The Neco doesn't track at the bottom unless you do what I did and turn the gain right down. This amp is big and loud and tracks to the bottom of the well. Beautiful.

It has to be one of the most 'tweakable' amps around but imo it has even more potential.

If I could get my speakers to sound like this, I would be a happy but poor bunny.

Unfatiguing, solid bass with lots of slam, beautiful shimmering treble with no sizzle - it just sounds natural.

I've been thinking about the price and for us UK people, translate that to pounds and I think it's a bargain. There's a lot of work put into this design and it's worth it. In fact Jeremy - have you tried better power supplies?

I think this is the one to beat at this price frankly. Like all toob amps, they can be touchy and get hot, but this is a top notch sound. It feels natural at low volume as well as high and you don't feel the need to 'focus' the bass. It's very tempting to turn the wick up though because it is no way harsh and just grows.

Anyway - it's a mains thing and I suspect that the Sunrise is susceptible to it. Is the gain very high?

Ian

[Deleted]

It is an open frame amplifier.....
It is bound to pick up things that have 'energy' enough to cause interference.
That is why most amps are encased in a metal (shielded) housing.

Try moving it closer to the synth (hovering over it ?)
If the bees are humming louder it's airborn.
If it stays the same it is the mains (and you need filtering, preferably as close as possible to the synth)
It's always best to filter the source instead of the recipient, unless this is impossible.

Both sides of the PCB have ground planes that minimises influence but since all parts are in the open and the tube impedances are very high it is hard to completely avoid it.

[PinkFloyd]

Clamp the wire between the nut and pot Ian.......

[Deleted]

Ian
If the potentiometer still has a locknut on the front, try striipping enough insulation from a piece of wire to go under the locknut and tighten it up again.
Then try connecting the other end of the wire to an earth point on the PCB.
As Miguel says, even the metal frames of the volume controls/attenuators of SS amplifiers should be connected to a 0Volts/earth point too, for the same reason.

Hi Alex,

I copied your post to here. Bingo, both you and Frans have said the same thing!! (Hi Frans)

Yes, it wouldn't harm to earth the vol pot. It may avoid what I was getting (up to a point).

I tried an experiment - pulled everything except the headphone away and turned up the volume. You get a buzz which is reduced by touching the outside of the headphone plug.

Just useful to know 'cos I reckon others may well get the same as I did.

Ian

[PinkFloyd]

Ian, I will incorporate some axial ferrite inductors into your Sunrise and also ground the pot... should minimise the noise.

Mike.

[Deleted]

Miguel,

Get one, man!! It's a toob lover's dream. Honestly, it has big bass weight and retains clarity because the bass is very quick acting. The slam is beautiful.

That really puzzled me at first because you would have sworn that there was a monster power supply somewhere and when I saw this little adapter that Mike sent, I thought that kind of slam just wouldn't be possible.

I think it would pay to clean up the mains though. (unless a better power supply suppresses this stuff) Listening at the moment to Santana and it's just gob smacking with the bass presence and that gorgeous Carlos tone coming through over the top so etched into the mix. It really produces music. I'm going to treat myself to myself.

It makes the V8 sound a little thin still.

It has a HUGE sound.

Ian

[Deleted]

Hi Alex,I copied your post to here. Bingo, both you and Frans have said the same thing!! (Hi Frans)

Hi Ian
Same problem in 2 different threads, and with 2 different open frame valve amps.
Alex