New Hybrid Class A / Tube amp kit coming soon!

[Deleted]

Jul 15, 2011 18:22:12 GMT @heliharris said:

Mick,I couldn't help but admire your fine work as shown in your photos of the Project Sunrise. 8-)By the way, I finally, after a long delay, last month finished all the 'Fransifying' mods on my Indeed G2, including the addition of the beautifully made by you aluminium bottom plate. The effort was worth it, but from what I am reading in this thread, Jeremy's/Frans's joint venture new amp promises even higher SQ. I look forward to get my hands on it! :DCheers!

Hi Israel,

Pleased you are happy with your moded G2, and seem to be happy with its sound quality, i still really enjoy mine to!!.

The Hybrid is certainly a nice little Amp and a dream to build, with such comprehensive building instructions, even i found it a breeze.

I haven`t carried out a direct A-B comparison yet with the G2, but my initial impression was, that it seems to have a more revealing clinical sound, but still retains "warmth", a characteristic of the moded G2.

I will allow a few more hours burn in on the Hybrid before i do a direct comparison, it certainly suits the HD800`s very well indeed to my ear.

I am sure you will enjoy building, and be more than happy with your Sunrise, both SQ and general appearance of this bargain Amp are of the highest quality, to my mind.


Mick.

Hi, Mick

Thanks for all the information about the Sunrise! It sounds exciting, and I am eager and anxious to start putting mine together when it arrives, probably Monday.

I have posted some photos of my completed, fully 'Fransified' Indeed G2, sporting the beautifully made aluminum bottom plate that you made for me, on the G2 tweaks and bias adjustment thread, Reply 396. Here is the link:
rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=b&action=display&thread=5213&page=16

I like the SQ of this G2 very much, and to my ears, it has a wider bandwidth than one of my favorite Necos, the Bossfet v2.1, so much so that my HD650's, sound so open and transparent that they do not need the veil lifter filter that Frans helped me make some time ago, when used with the G2 as modded now. But, from what I have been reading here, I think I will like the Sunrise even better!

All the Best!
Israel

[Garage1217]

Hey Mike, so working on my pc and projects I was able to spend around 6 hours per valve and get an initial impression of two of the 3 valves. I have a long ways to go and many hours to go before I form a final opinion but here is where I am at....

Source
- E-MU 0204

Amp
- Project Sunrise

Amp settings
- TC on capacitors
- 6V
- 10ohm

Headphones
- HD-650 Sennheisers / bone stock / white drivers

Tube impressions after around 6 hours...
- Phillips 6922 ECG = Absolutely no offense at all but this tube is simply not for me. To my ears and setup it was dry as a bone, with good but focused midrange and a wide soundstage. I would not call it bright but just focused in the mid range. It was the first tube I tried and I really wanted to like it but it just is not to be. I think it would sound better in a home audio pre-amp because of the dryness as it would sound more... airy in a hifi system and give that hifi sound that some prefer. It would also be a wise choice for those with diminished hearing from its focused midrange.

- 1969 6H23N OTK stamped... Not sure what this is really brand wise other than russian haha. Now mind you, I was a little down before trying this tube out as I was disappointed in the first as I had high hopes. But good god almighty where did you find these things? This tube is fantastic! It was immediately apparent the difference between the phillips and this unit. Strings and midbass were simply magical and the overall bottom end was stunning! It brings out male vocals like no tube I recall hearing in sunrise and also makes female vocals sound much more lifelike. I have not listened in a week to my JJ's so have not done a back to back but I am in love with this OTK tube. I think before I move on to the chrome pin, I am going to spend a few weeks on this one.

Reference track list initially sampled on each tube. I listen to a unique mix of music when I sample.
AC/DC - Hells Bells
Ace of Bass - Happy Nation
Alabama - Once Upon A Lifetime
Beastie Boys - Sabotage
Black Eyed Peas - Anxiety
Bon Jovi - You Give Love a Bad Name / Remixed off This left feels right blues
Celine Dion - If Walls Could Talk
The Crystal Method - Trip Like I Do
Danzig - She Rides
Debbie Gibson - Foolish Beat
Eminem - Cinderella Man
Enigma - Principals of Lust
Enrique Iglesias - Could I Have This Kiss Forever
Expose - I'll Never Get Over You Getting Over Me
George Michael - Father Figure
Godsmack - I Stand Alone
Gorillaz - Dracula
Gorillaz - Tomorrow Comes Today
Gypsy Soul - Who
Heart - Alone
INXS - Mystify
Kid Rock - Prodigal Son
Kid Rock - All Summer Long
Korn - Twisted Transistor
Lady Gaga - Dance in the Dark
Madonna - Spanish Eyes
Mariah Carey - Hero
Megadeth - Of Mice and Men
Megadeth - Absolution
Metallica - Astronomy
Metallica - The God That Failed
Michael Jackson - Billie Jean
Morgana Lefay - Alley of the Oaks
Motley Crue - Drift Away
NIN - Down in it
No Doubt - Simple Kind of Life
Norah Jones - I've got to see you again
Offspring - A lot like me
Pink - Sober
Plumb - Cut
Queensryche - Bridge
Santana - Maria Maria
Santana / Everlast - Put your lights on
Scorpions - Holiday
Sting - Shape of my Heart
Mr. Mister - Broken Wings
Maxi Priest - Wild World
Muse - Supermassive Black Hole
White Zombie - I'm your boogie man / sex on the rocks mix
White Zombie - Welcome to planet motherlover
Yngwie Malmsteen - Far Beyond the Sun
Yo-yo ma - Various

[Deleted]

My Goodness, thats what I call a thorough listening test - if it sounds good in general across that range I don't think you need worry about anything else.
Now please shut up about this amp, the more I read the more I want one and I can't afford one ;D
Dav.

[Garage1217]

Thanks I try to cover most musical bases when trying something new even if I do not listen to the entire songs.

[PinkFloyd]

Hi Jeremy,

To be "precise" the 1969 (year) 6H23N (6N23P) is from the Reflector Corp, Saratov, Russia.

If you look closely at the valve you will see "V11 1969" stamped on it. This means it was produced in the 7th month of 1969 so can date that to July 1969..... so, 42 years old, PRECISELY!!

The "OTK" marking is basically a quality control stamp.... think of it as "OK" in the US

The other valve I sent you was a 6N23P-EB. Pretty much the same thing BUT the "EB" is generally regarded as "military standard" as EB is a special quality valve.

The "E" equates to "long life" >5000hrs at max specs

The B equates to "mechanically improved"

You will notice that the EB variants have chrome pins and the glass is also a bit thicker than a standard 6N23P..... the EB also had to pass tighter tolerances before they were OTK stamped.

Having said all that, just look at the "quality" of the build on the 1969 valve .... it has the identical "frame" (what I call the EB frame) to the later EB variants.... as soon as they introduced the EB the standard 6N23P adopted a much flimsier internal design.... the "early" 6N23P are, in my opinion, "EB's" without the chrome pins.

I think it is fascinating that somebody put these together by hand back in 1969 (when the space race was at it's peak) and their craftsmanship has been preserved in a "vacuum" for 42 years.... all nice and fresh for you to enjoy in your amp

Current production valves just aren't built to those standards, the people putting them together are relatively new to the medium and this is why NOS is SO desirable.... Valves WERE the technology back in the day and a successful "space mission" and many "lives" were dependent on them performing under the harshest of conditions (G-Force, heat, vibration etc.)...... valves were proven to be more suitable for use in "space" than solid state (to the American's embarrassment) I'll leave it up to Frans / Alex to tell you why that was the case.... they are older than me and will probably remember the time the solid state space ship went bonkers

Anyhoo.... hope this has helped explain a bit about the Russians Jeremy? I don't actually "sell" the 1969 vintage, they are very special to me (the year more than anything) but sent you one as you were kind enough to send me a Project Sunrise..... I only have about 20 of the 1969 vintage left and would like to keep hold of them.

I have a box of 1961 vintage (year and month I was born) and NO way will I ever sell them.... I haven't even "opened" the box! Yeh, pretty sad (I know)..... Some fekker will probably throw them on a skip (dumpster) when I pop my clogs.... "what's this crap? a box full of penis shaped glass bottles..... he was a weirdo that bloke.... stick them in the bin!"

I also have FOUR 1966 vintage 6N23P (never seen the light of day).... fantastic year! England won the World Cup

Anyways, have a listen to the "EB" I sent you..... I think you will be VERY impressed

All the best,

Mike.

[PinkFloyd]

Jul 17, 2011 17:18:54 GMT Garage1217 said:

Hey Mike, so working on my pc and projects I was able to spend around 6 hours per valve and get an initial impression of two of the 3 valves. I have a long ways to go and many hours to go before I form a final opinion but here is where I am at....

Source
- E-MU 0204

Amp
- Project Sunrise

Amp settings
- TC on capacitors
- 6V
- 10ohm

Headphones
- HD-650 Sennheisers / bone stock / white drivers

Tube impressions after around 6 hours...
- Phillips 6922 ECG = Absolutely no offense at all but this tube is simply not for me. To my ears and setup it was dry as a bone, with good but focused midrange and a wide soundstage. I would not call it bright but just focused in the mid range. It was the first tube I tried and I really wanted to like it but it just is not to be. I think it would sound better in a home audio pre-amp because of the dryness as it would sound more... airy in a hifi system and give that hifi sound that some prefer. It would also be a wise choice for those with diminished hearing from its focused midrange.

- 1969 6H23N OTK stamped... Not sure what this is really brand wise other than russian haha. Now mind you, I was a little down before trying this tube out as I was disappointed in the first as I had high hopes. But good god almighty where did you find these things? This tube is fantastic! It was immediately apparent the difference between the phillips and this unit. Strings and midbass were simply magical and the overall bottom end was stunning! It brings out male vocals like no tube I recall hearing in sunrise and also makes female vocals sound much more lifelike. I have not listened in a week to my JJ's so have not done a back to back but I am in love with this OTK tube. I think before I move on to the chrome pin, I am going to spend a few weeks on this one.

Reference track list initially sampled on each tube. I listen to a unique mix of music when I sample.
AC/DC - Hells Bells
Ace of Bass - Happy Nation
Alabama - Once Upon A Lifetime
Beastie Boys - Sabotage
Black Eyed Peas - Anxiety
Bon Jovi - You Give Love a Bad Name / Remixed off This left feels right blues
Celine Dion - If Walls Could Talk
The Crystal Method - Trip Like I Do
Danzig - She Rides
Debbie Gibson - Foolish Beat
Eminem - Cinderella Man
Enigma - Principals of Lust
Enrique Iglesias - Could I Have This Kiss Forever
Expose - I'll Never Get Over You Getting Over Me
George Michael - Father Figure
Godsmack - I Stand Alone
Gorillaz - Dracula
Gorillaz - Tomorrow Comes Today
Gypsy Soul - Who
Heart - Alone
INXS - Mystify
Kid Rock - Prodigal Son
Kid Rock - All Summer Long
Korn - Twisted Transistor
Lady Gaga - Dance in the Dark
Madonna - Spanish Eyes
Mariah Carey - Hero
Megadeth - Of Mice and Men
Megadeth - Absolution
Metallica - Astronomy
Metallica - The God That Failed
Michael Jackson - Billie Jean
Morgana Lefay - Alley of the Oaks
Motley Crue - Drift Away
NIN - Down in it
No Doubt - Simple Kind of Life
Norah Jones - I've got to see you again
Offspring - A lot like me
Pink - Sober
Plumb - Cut
Queensryche - Bridge
Santana - Maria Maria
Santana / Everlast - Put your lights on
Scorpions - Holiday
Sting - Shape of my Heart
Mr. Mister - Broken Wings
Maxi Priest - Wild World
Muse - Supermassive Black Hole
White Zombie - I'm your boogie man / sex on the rocks mix
White Zombie - Welcome to planet motherlover
Yngwie Malmsteen - Far Beyond the Sun
Yo-yo ma - Various

BTW.... I haven't heard of half of those bands.... then again, have never really taken to Middle of the road "elevator" type music..... I was in a shop the other day "the original factory shop" www.theoriginalfactoryshop.co.uk and I swear they were playing the same set list

I only went in for a look but ended up coming out as "milli vanilli" doing an extended "rap" was getting on my nerves..... just as I was about to have a look at the "underpant" section the "mix" changed to some spurious 90's chart band singing "pump up the jam".....

I would HATE to have to work in one of those factory shops, the music is pure shite!

[Garage1217]

Great writeup on the said valves. I did noticed the EB's have a little different internals but overall they are very, very similar. These reflector valves are stellar, first time I had heard of them. I located several large qtys and after some listening sessions, it may become the standard tube for sunrise, but need to put in some more time on them

[PinkFloyd]

Jul 17, 2011 23:04:17 GMT Garage1217 said:

Great writeup on the said valves. I did noticed the EB's have a little different internals but overall they are very, very similar. These reflector valves are stellar, first time I had heard of them. I located several large qtys and after some listening sessions, it may become the standard tube for sunrise, but need to put in some more time on them

I have PLENTY of "single" valves I have gathered over the years.... ie: valves which have not made a "pair"..... this is a perfect opportunity to find them a new home!

Absolutely PRIME quality 6H23N (1960 - 1990) .... if you don't mind, Jeremy, I'll offer ONE per day (after I have tested them and made sure that both channels are closely matched..... I could test 5 tubes to find one that was close per channel so this will be reflected in the price.

I will only sell Premium Vintage 6H23N and it will be on a "one per day" basis..... I don't have the time to perfectly match more than one per day (I can do it in my spare time)......

They will be 100% guaranteed genuine NOS and will be matched to perfection (or as near as dammit )......

I can do most years from 1966 onward..... let me know the year you were born and I'll do my best to sort you out a genuine (never seen the light of day) Russian 6H23N from that year.....

Mike.

[PinkFloyd]

Jul 12, 2011 14:45:32 GMT texan said:

PS... I would love some free valves... Think of it as a charity case... Imagine, for less than a hundredth of a pence a day, you could send a valve to the needy in Texas. LOL!

Yeh, you could send me some "free" sand for my play pen but I think you'll lose out on the shipping costs.

[texan]

[Garage1217]

That is a really cool looking photo! I dig it!

[PinkFloyd]

LOL! and those measurement mean "what" exactly?

[PinkFloyd]

Jul 24, 2011 22:32:14 GMT PinkFloyd said:

LOL! and those measurement mean "what" exactly?

Are you logging transconductance as "fact" or as a variable?.... PROPER valve matching acounts for many variables;)

No such thing as a direct "Match" to the spec sheet this is one area that requires "experience" to perfect.

No "tube" tester is 100% accurate.... 10% of the results require an EAR to CONFIRM that the valve is "musical"....


Night night,.

[Deleted]

Input caps out of line slightly raise distortion and noise

Are you sure that you don't mean reduce, as that would be more likely with a SS amplifier.

[Deleted]

Another reason I don't like valves !
The grid leak resistance is more than likely reduced by the removal of the capacitors ? (no schematic in front of me)

[PinkFloyd]

Jul 25, 2011 3:23:47 GMT @sandyk said:

Another reason I don't like valves !
The grid leak resistance is more than likely reduced by the removal of the capacitors ? (no schematic in front of me)

Alex.... I think it is time you heard one of these.... I want to ship my personal one over to you..... please PM me your details and I will ship over to OZ aSAP.

Mike.

[Deleted]

Mike
The reason I queried the distortion figures was that with most decent SS designs, correctly implemented removal of input, output and feedback capacitors, improves distortion and not the other way around.My own preamp and amplifier are directly coupled for this reason.Even upmarket capacitors like the Auricap, 4.7uF still have a small sound signature, although Frans is unlikely to agree !
Some capacitors even have a fair amount of distortion,especially below 100HZ, and I believe that many have their own unique sound signature.
Perhaps Frans can shed some light on why bypassing the capacitors increases distortion in this particular design ?
The only type of valve amplifier that I have any interest in hearing, would be one that uses "Grounded Grid Triode" type topology ( a VHF technique which also helps extend bandwidth) where the added colouration/warmth due to a higher percentage of even order harmonics is not there.I would be surprised if Miguel's favourite RedWine series doesn't have something like that in their premium range. My understanding is that this type of valve amplifier is up there with the very best of the solid state designs , although well out of my price range.
Alex

[Deleted]

correctly implemented removal of input, output and feedback capacitors, improves distortion and not the other way around.

I'm glad you asked that, I was wondering but don't have the knowledge to second guess such things.

With, for example, the SCHA and the X-CanVn (another hybrid) designs showing improvements with "caps-out" why is this the opposite?

[Deleted]

Like Alex had mentioned before the grid resistance changes (considerably) creating higher noise levels.
The distortion does not increase... the noise level does.
Since the analysing program simply looks at 'levels' to create the distortion figures there is an increase in the figures because of that.
So the increase in numbers does not mean the distortion increases.
Grid currents from triodes are substantial and vary from tube to tube.

The green lines are written 'over' the white ones so you cannot see where the white lines actually are (the distortion artifacts from 2kHz and above) they are (most likely) equally high.

Don't forget the biggest distortion creators are the output caps and the tube itself.
Since there is no feedback also the MOSFET adds it's own distortion but lower (and different) than the tube/valve.

Also note there are considerable 60 and 120 Hz artifacts in the graphs and at the higher part of the spectrum I see some needles occuring that have nothing to do with the amps distortion but everything with switchmode power supplies and HF ground loops (PC/laptop-soundcard)
These artifacts also can make the numbers appear worse than they are in real life.

Using higher amounts of gain (several tubes/valves) and overall feedback also greatly reduces the harmonic distortion and IMO HF techniques are not mandatory to reach good performance.

The Sunrise is non-feedback and thus has lots of even harmonics (and some uneven)
In graphs I was sent the 6H23NEB had the highset amount of 2nd harmonics (10dB more) which are the pleasant sounding ones, but less uneven harmonics (the unpleasant ones)
All the other tested tubes including the 6H23N had about similar behaviour (10dB lower 2nd harmonic).

Alex does not want things 'added' to the original signal, nor do I.
But I can understand that there might be loads of people that do like the added signals.
Just like some prefer vinyl to digital for the same reasons.
Simply because it is more pleasant to hear.

a matter of preference and convictions.

[Garage1217]

Agreed on the "a matter of preference and convictions" and mine are for the fine little glowing glass bottles from a lost era that bring so much joy to my ears vs the alternatives. I could ramble on and on but my love for the little glowing bottles and the music they produce is very set in stone.

[whiteghost]

I just bought a project sunrise kit
It will be reviewed for a french audiophile site, i hope it will drive my cans (k340)

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2011 7:15:40 GMT whiteghost said:

I just bought a project sunrise kit
It will be reviewed for a french audiophile sie, i hope it will drive my cans (k340)

It certainly will!!, and very nicely too!!

[Garage1217]

Hello Roland, Just saw your purchase! Sent you an email with general shipping information. All parts are in stock so going out first thing Monday morning for you. Much appreciated and looking forward to the review!

[whiteghost]

No soucy i probably ask you advice for a good valve (a top notch one) in a while..

[PinkFloyd]

A few of my quotes from another thread

"The Project Sunrise amp + Beyer DT-990 is a STUNNING combination! I fired one of my matched Russians into the Project Sunrise and, whoaaaah!, these things dig really deep. The headstage of the DT-990 via PS is "grand" and the sheer weight and depth of sound is just fantastic.

Like a good real ale, the sound is "chewy".... plenty of flavours, aromas and a good body. Ian, if you think the Neco with water towers sounds good with the DT-990 you will cream your pants when you hear them powered by a Sunrise

The detailing is astounding, the decay of notes just 1st class..... it's an absolute cracker.... give it 20 minutes to warm up and you just won't believe the sound this amp makes.

Would you like to have a listen? If you like it I can build one up for you (if you get Jeremy to send me the kit).... it won't cost anything to build. I just think you should hear this amp with the DT-990.

Mike. "




"In fact, this is not only the best amp I have heard in a long while it is also the best combo I have heard.... for some reason the Project Sunrise SERIOUSLY takes a grip of the DT-990's drivers and totally brings out the best in them.... it's more like listening to speakers with the PS driving the DT-990... in "and" out of the head with bass that, sometimes, you could swear is being felt rather than heard....

That 6922 Philips I had in the Sunrise was obviously no good at all, the 6H23N (1969 vintage) has really opened up the true potential of this amp and has also blown the haze right off the DT-990..... I was enjoying them with the Neco, X-CAN V2 etc. but I am now MARVELLING in the sound they pampering my ears with... truly A1!

To put it quite simply.... without this amp driving them it was pretty much a ride on one of those kiddy "tea cup" things:



With the PS driving them it is a white knuckle ride, PACKED with excitement.... it's in a totally different league and it has got my juices flowing BIG time... this is not another "kiddy ride", this is the real deal, full on, no holds barred, laser show spectacular, strap yourself in to your seat and prepare for the ride type thing!


All the ladies in the house scream "SUNRISE!!"..... wooohoo!"



"

Aug 1, 2011 20:29:51 GMT @iancraig10 said:

Would you like to have a listen? If you like it I can build one up for you (if you get Jeremy to send me the kit).... it won't cost anything to build. I just think you should hear this amp with the DT-990.

There's an offer I can't turn down, Mike. I had a look and I'm not sure what options to ask for!! There are so many.

It certainly looks good and believe it or not, my Bravo died of crackle and my Indeed burned itself to death!! I bought another version on Ebay which was awful so I threw it as far as I could, so the opportunity to get an improved version is very attractive.

What options should I choose on that list?

Ian

The Indeed and Bravo (all versions) are SHITE compared with the Sunrise Ian.... I'm sorry, but, there is no other way of saying it. Don't even think of comparing them to the Sunrise.... they are "good" amps but the Sunrise is a LOT LOT better (and I mean a LOT LOT better).... it will blow your mind (guaranteed).

Jeremy (very kindly) sent me one of the latest boards over (the black and gold one) and it's yours (free of charge)..... I have no plans for it as I am more than happy with the "one" Sunrise amp I already have so just ask Jeremy for all the parts required to populate it PLUS the top and bottom plates.

I don't want to fit my own parts just in case I mess the balance up.... this is an amp that doesn't need tweaking, it's perfect in stock kit form.... so ask him to send EVERYTHING required to populate the board (volco, valve socket, resistors, caps, sinks, THE WORKS)

I have a few 24V PSU's so will give you one of them PLUS the PCB. I'll get my Sunrise in the post to you tomorrow (hopefully) Via special delivery so you can get an idea of just how good it is with the DT-990

Please remind me of your details... I STILL haven't written them down

Mike. "
Taken from the [url=http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=review&action=display&thread=6755&page=6"just joined the Beyer club[/url] thread....