Headphone amp questions from a first timer :S

[xerxes]

I've found that speaker cables can make a significant difference the the sound. I had a pair and they made my speakers sound quite nasty; the trebble was very pronounced and too bright for me. I swapped them for another pair and the sound was much better. I couldn't tell you which was more accurate or neutral, but I know which cables I liked with my set-up.

My CD player actually has two sets of outputs, so I was able to connect the same CD player to the same amp with two different sets of interconnects and use the remote to flick between two different inputs on the amp so I can do a very quick A-B test. Also, if I cover the indicator light on the amp and go back and forth few times until I forget which is which, I can effectively not know which of the two cables I'm listening to, so that I'm not influenced by which one looks prettier etc.

I found that I could hear the difference between some interconnect cables, but it's generally very slight. Sometimes I've found that the overall tone of the sound may essentially remain unchanged, but there might have been subtle differences in the depth of the image for instance. In any case going through 3 or 4 sets of cables I had, some home made, I was able to put them in order of preference despite the differences being quite small. However, I didn't try any really cheap cables, the sort that you get in the box with a cheap CD player for example. Even my home made ones used good quality parts, decent connectors with some single core OFC copper wire with unbleached cotton insulation.

[chris1967]

@ sandyk
I agree with you, at the moment i have Belden Interconnects (1694a... i needed the shielding, and to c0nnect my left poweramp to the pre at a distance of 5m) which i made myself, and they are a little aggressive.
I prefer the aggression to the cheaper cables (from an old car installation) but this is to prove that there IS a difference, and it IS measurable (due to capacitance/inductance although i do repeat, that i am not technical).

@clausdk

Claus i do not agree. I currently have mid priced speaker cables (Van den Hul The Revelation Hybrid) and it REALLY sounds better than "installation ofc" speaker wire, and this i have repeatedly confirmed with blind test. The other reason i bought them is that i got them at cost price through an old friend in the business...

I have heard many times differences (between cables), and sometimes i haven't (i admit to this and did not claim i hadn't)...

If you claim you have not heard sound differences through headphone cables, i cannot know the reason... if you tell us what exactly you listened (the complete setups) we might find reasons that you did not hear any differences, but yet again this doesn't prove that there aren't.

Sandyk i agree with you once again!

and finally Frans...

My answer is that it is better not to have a religion in these matters, but an open mind.

I believe, you can correct me on this, that if you measure different interconnects you WILL see differences... the more the measured difference the more the sonic difference.

On most i agree... music is the essence of all what we are talking about here so the enjoyment of MUSIC, is the issue, not the means... although the better the tools the more the enjoyment...

[Deleted]

This cables thing has been a hot subject as long as I can remember (probably longer).

I have similar experiences in the demo rooms from my stint in audio.

We also made our own, fron decent, "noiseless" microphone cables, one with standard set up and cheap plugs, the other with extra ground at source and flashy plugs. We couldn't tell the difference between the two but the customers could ;D

I'm sure Alexs and Frans take on this matter are as close to the truth as you need to get. I think we all develop favourites, which may be based on solid ground or placebo, I know I have but then even your faves won't work in every set up.

[clausdk]

Jan 15, 2011 14:27:42 GMT chris1967 said:

@clausdk

Claus i do not agree. I currently have mid priced speaker cables (Van den Hul The Revelation Hybrid) and it REALLY sounds better than "installation ofc" speaker wire, and this i have repeatedly confirmed with blind test. The other reason i bought them is that i got them at cost price through an old friend in the business...

I have heard many times differences (between cables), and sometimes i haven't (i admit to this and did not claim i hadn't)...

If you claim you have not heard sound differences through headphone cables, i cannot know the reason... if you tell us what exactly you listened (the complete setups) we might find reasons that you did not hear any differences, but yet again this doesn't prove that there aren't.

Please read my posts again..
as you did missread them the first time..

[clausdk]

�

It is my 'belief' you better spend your money on better cans, sources, amps, music then on cables.

could not have said it better myself, but if the cables are given to you, one might as well use them, which was the case with my Kimber cable..

I really have not yet decided if I believe in cables, as I have no possebility to prove it, BUT I do think that my Kimber cables made an improvement on the SR 850, I have no way of telling if it is placebo and do not care, I do not mind fooling myself

Just because sceince can not tell the difference does not mean there is none, it just tells us we can not put a number on it and prove it

For many years nobody knew how a bumblebee could fly as all the calculations and knowledge told them they could not, but the bumblebees did not care, they were just flying around doing what bomblebees do.

[Deleted]

Headphones on the other hand, with a few exceptions are normally well over 8 ohms impedance, and more often than not, more than 30 ohms impedance . or as high as 300 ohms.

Alex, you have a fantastic way of explaining why things happen. I wish you were around when I was younger. I needed lessons!!!

We just never think of the impedance differences and the fact that headphones have a very different resistance compared to speakers.

I hear differences with speaker cable but not connections between amp and headphone. If I hear differences, I do suspect I'm imagining it because if there is a difference it's tiny.

I've had two Senn 650's running from one amp on the same music at the same time and I couldn't hear anything different. I was a berk because I paid a lot of money for that cable as well.

I first noticed speaker cable differences when I connected quite a long run of silver flat cable to an old Cyrus 2 years back. The system I had was already too bright and the cable tipped it up even more. At the time, I couldn't believe it and I did think I was hearing things until I changed it back to my old copper really fat wire. The sound changed back.

I can't remember what the cable was, but it was made of silver and was parallel solid core about half an inch apart and the only reason I used it was to run it under a carpet and therefore shorten the amount of wire I'd need by going straight under the carpet rather than round the edges of the room.

However, the sound wasn't as good so I took it out.

I'm really not so sure about headphone cable or wires from an ipod to an amp.

[Deleted]

Jan 15, 2011 14:27:42 GMT chris1967 said:

!

and finally Frans...

My answer is that it is better not to have a religion in these matters, but an open mind.

I believe, you can correct me on this, that if you measure different interconnects you WILL see differences... the more the measured difference the more the sonic difference.

Everyone has a 'religion', even open minded people that claim to have none....

measurements on interconnects have NOT been able to verify claims and there seems to be NO price/performance ratio in independent tests.
Only tests done by the VENDORS seem to reveal theirs is better then those of other manufacturers and theirs sound best too.

Please keep an open mind when reading up on articles/tests about cables and recognise WHO tested it and has something (money) to gain...

[Deleted]

For many years nobody knew how a bumblebee could fly as all the calculations and knowledge told them they could not, but the bumblebees did not care, they were just flying around doing what bomblebees do.

Yep... that's what we call a classic myth..
You watched a certain animation movie too much (I like that movie)

Freebees are always nice, just like certain ultra cheap ebay gems...

Speaker cables: measurable, provable.
But it's not just the cable itself like many believe.
It has to do with the way the power amp is constructed (how stable under certain circumstances), the speaker inmpedance which is all over the place, cable resistance,
HOW MUCH contact is made, solid core has only very tiny contact surface with some connector types and thus high resistance, while soft multiiple strands in the same connector have a much bigger contact surface, the capacitance of the cable and the way the amp reacts to that, the total resistance of the cable, the output reistance of the amp (far below 1 Ohm and for HP amps WAY above it).

If something is on the edge of oscilating/ringing some will prefer this.
Rolled of highs... some will prefer this..
What is 'better'? highly personal and subjective IMHO.
technically there is no disputing it.

regardless of whatever mod is done to gear or cables is swapped it always affects only the subjective realm: tighter bass, more air, voices are better, clearer highs and what not.
Strangely enough there can be seen NO differences in the electrical signal.
Not even the smallest ones in the entire spectrum.
Not just talking about frequency characteristics but ALL kinds of relative tests.

Oh... I looked for the proof for many years... vigurously... relentlous being a firm believer and could hear it clearly, throwing money and equipment at it as I was the one that was going to prove 'it' existed.... guess what ... now I have become a sceptic, closed minded, bittered non believer with obviously bad hearing.
Myself ? I think otherwise.

I am not going to tell Mick how to use a lathe or fly a chopper, I am not going to tell Mike how he should carve his tree (Briljant), I am not going to tell Ian how to compose, I am not going to tell Chris how to drum, I am not going to tell Claus how Icecream should taste, I am not even going to tell Merton how to paint.
Yet, ....


This thread has drifted and turned into the everlasting yess. no game again.

No matter how one looks at it... it IS as we believe it is... a religion.
Some will have the same religion, others will have another.

[Deleted]

I am not going to tell Ian how to compose,

Oooh ... I don't know..... that could actually help Frans!!!

It originally started because the op was considering a cable from the dap to the amp. We're taking about 6 inches of wire.

However it expanded into interconnects and speaker cables. We all obviously feel the need to discuss what normally starts arguments. Not here though Frans.

I've found it quite interesting; especially when it got to the point of the amplifier changing with a different load could account for it but maybe not consistent with different amplifiers.

That tallies with different experiences of cables.

However, after hearing about your trick, I'll never trust a dealer again!!

[Deleted]

However, after hearing about your trick, I'll never trust a dealer again!!

I don't think there are much techs experimenting with customers this way.
Most sellers believe firmly in what they sell.
Besides ... I never told the guy so he will proudly say to all his friends he CAN her it.
I KNOW he can't... but ofcoarse a single experment proves little about all hifi buffs.

Pulled similar kind of 'tests' more then once so for me there is no doubt anymore.

Built a SS amp once under a tube-amp frame (very basic generally thought of as bad sounding standard 4 transistor Philips design) and left the heaters on and build in a 30 seconds delay to the output.

Fooled audiophiles with it...
It even got mentioned in a Dutch audiomagazine.
Some I told, some I didn't ..
One person didn't like the sound at all... later he said he didn't like tube amps at all.. and I thought he heard

Listen to gear during the day or in bright TL light and in the evening in the dark or dimmed cosy lighting.

the brain remains a funny thing..
If there is anything we know little about it is the brain and EXCACTLY how it works.
We know some of it but that's all.

[Deleted]

Listen to gear during the day or in bright TL light and in the evening in the dark or dimmed cosy lighting.

For me, late night listening is absolutely stunning. I have no idea what is going on, but the same tracks listened to late sound totally different and I know it's in my head.

Absolutely right - your state of mind and mood play a massive part in the experience without a doubt.

After all, it is about 'perception' of sound when it's recorded and our own live experiences of listening compared with recorded versions too. I have noticed that different people have very different ideas of what speakers should sound like...... and we're talking massive differences as well.

[chris1967]

Sorry Claus i didn't understand it correctly...

Frans... what can i say...one thing is for sure... i love the way you talk and explain things...you are the reason (and of course everyone here) that i started using a soldering iron...and messing about, with projects... (i even made myself a regulated ps for my Aune...gosh...me?), on this matter i have to agree not only on the technical explanations but mostly about the psychological effect being very strong and influencing people much in their perception of sound.

[joethearachnid]

Jan 15, 2011 19:40:36 GMT @iancraig10 said:

For me, late night listening is absolutely stunning. I have no idea what is going on, but the same tracks listened to late sound totally different and I know it's in my head.

Absolutely right - your state of mind and mood play a massive part in the experience without a doubt.

After all, it is about 'perception' of sound when it's recorded and our own live experiences of listening compared with recorded versions too. I have noticed that different people have very different ideas of what speakers should sound like...... and we're talking massive differences as well.

I know what you mean about late night listening. I haven't been going to sleep until well after I ought to these past few nights because the Panda combined with that magical moment around midnight is just musical ecstacy. I'd put it down to a complete lack of background noise and everything being warmed up (as well as some vague spacing out on my part) but I also like to think that there's a bit of magic there too.

Maybe that's my religion?

-JoetheArachnid

[PinkFloyd]

Jan 15, 2011 21:09:15 GMT joethearachnid said:

Jan 15, 2011 19:40:36 GMT @iancraig10 said:

For me, late night listening is absolutely stunning. I have no idea what is going on, but the same tracks listened to late sound totally different and I know it's in my head.

Absolutely right - your state of mind and mood play a massive part in the experience without a doubt.

After all, it is about 'perception' of sound when it's recorded and our own live experiences of listening compared with recorded versions too. I have noticed that different people have very different ideas of what speakers should sound like...... and we're talking massive differences as well.

I know what you mean about late night listening. I haven't been going to sleep until well after I ought to these past few nights because the Panda combined with that magical moment around midnight is just musical ecstacy. I'd put it down to a complete lack of background noise and everything being warmed up (as well as some vague spacing out on my part) but I also like to think that there's a bit of magic there too.

Maybe that's my religion?

-JoetheArachnid

Yes, less background "ambient" noise, you are also more relaxed in the evening and the mains is better as all the factories / industry is shut down for the night.... you are also more responsive to sound in the dark / semi dark.... we are animals (after all) and our senses kick up a notch when we need our wits about us.... ie: if we were in a dark forest at night our senses would be a lot more acute than if we were on a beach in full sunlight.... it's all about yourself being "conditioned", programmed to receive.... unless "you" are in the zone no amount of interconnects or amps will make a difference

[gommer]

Talking about listening to music and the mind, I sometimes have an awful opposite experience.
When after a day's work of concentration, i step in the car and turn on music, i usually (not sometimes, but usually) have a very weird experience as if the music doesn't blend in as it should. At that time, it's almost unbearable to listen, everything sound like garbage, a cacophony, some items of the music stand out in a background of noise, very hard to describe. It lasts 5 to 10 minutes and then everything begins to blend in and only then am i capable of recognising which songs are playing.

[Deleted]

Jan 15, 2011 21:19:21 GMT gommer said:

Talking about listening to music and the mind, I sometimes have an awful opposite experience.
When after a day's work of concentration, i step in the car and turn on music, i usually (not sometimes, but usually) have a very weird experience as if the music doesn't blend in as it should. At that time, it's almost unbearable to listen, everything sound like garbage, a cacophony, some items of the music stand out in a background of noise, very hard to describe. It lasts 5 to 10 minutes and then everything begins to blend in and only then am i capable of recognising which songs are playing.

Marc
Sounds like the audio system in your car is shite, or perhaps something is taking a long while to stabilise.It seems likely that your brain needs to do a lot of hard work too, to reject the majority of the problem initially.
Another possibility is stress, and that can elevate BP.
Why don't you turn on your car radio 10 minutes before you get into the car to drive away (low volume of course) and see if it is the cause.Go do something else for that 10 minutes before getting back into the car. You really need to find out whether it is the car radio or YOU that has a problem ! Frans can tell you all about Stress too !
Alex

[gommer]

No no, it's all in the brain, 100% sure. The audio in the car is fine, all of the time. Its everytime after i've been concentrating for the last 2 to 3 hours before leaving. Its very hard to explain how it sounds at these times.

[Deleted]

Yes, less background "ambient" noise, you are also more relaxed in the evening and the mains is better as all the factories / industry is shut down for the night.... you are also more responsive to sound in the dark / semi dark.... we are animals (after all) and our senses kick up a notch when we need our wits about us.... ie: if we were in a dark forest at night our senses would be a lot more acute than if we were on a beach in full sunlight.... it's all about yourself being "conditioned", programmed to receive.... unless "you" are in the zone no amount of interconnects or amps will make a difference

I agree with Mike.
I also believe the reduction in ambient background noise can be due to atmospheric conditions related to the drop in temperature, and more moisture in the air as a result.Dew on the grass can be evidence of that.

[Deleted]

Jan 15, 2011 21:53:10 GMT gommer said:

No no, it's all in the brain, 100% sure. The audio in the car is fine, all of the time. Its everytime after i've been concentrating for the last 2 to 3 hours before leaving. Its very hard to explain how it sounds at these times.

Marc
Sounds like you better find a way to reduce that stress before you have a heart attack, or make yourself physically ill. !
Do you gee yourself up with coffees to keep alert ?
Alex

[Deleted]

So interlink cables... religion.. why.. ? .. all the claims that are made cannot be verified with objective tests so you have to belief it will

I do not believe that is quite correct. There have been numerous published tests that reveal very.small measurable differences between different interconnect and loudspeaker cables.
However, more often than not, these differences have been put to one side as inconsequential, due to the probability that human hearing is not capable of discerning those minute differences.
In the vast majority of cases, that conclusion would be close to the mark.

[gommer]

No exessive coffee abuse. Stress, maybe. But if stressed up, i'm usually a bitch, which is not the case.

Could be related to my funny self. Somtimes family members can be talking to me for minutes without me noticing. I'm a real man, literally can only do 1 thing at a time

[PinkFloyd]

I'm a real man, literally can only do 1 thing at a time

Same here, I concentrate on "one" thing at a time, can't do (refuse to do) that "multi tasking" shite..... If I am listening to music I am "listening to music".... I'm not cooking dinner, writing a book and masturbating at the same time

[freddypipsqueek]

A couple of glasses of red wine makes headphones sound better to me. Is that the norm ?. Beer has the oppersite effect !.

[Deleted]

you are also more responsive to sound in the dark / semi dark.... we are animals (after all) and our senses kick up a notch when we need our wits about us.... ie: if we were in a dark forest at night our senses would be a lot more acute than if we were on a beach in full sunlight.... it's all about yourself being "conditioned", programmed to receive....

That's my take on it too.
In the dark we have to rely on our hearing during the day on our eyesight.
At the culmination of the dark the ears work best (around midnight).
Our internal clock works pretty well.
I am very curious about the findings on this from plane travellers with jet-lag, how they perceive sound in their hotel rooms.

I am convinced it has nothing to do with polution of mains as 20 years ago I had everything running on a a few car batteries completely disconnected from mains and the effect was the same.

I used to listen between 22:00 and 1:00 even reserved time for it (no wife at that time )

Physical and mental excertion off the brain can completely f#ck up a lot in your mind.
Well rested with a pair of headphones just before you are dozing off... magical... everything is so sweet.
You can have the same experience in the middle of the day when you had an opportunity to take a nap (when you have to work at night I tend to take a nap around 14:00)

So for me... convinced it is a brain/relaxation thingy.

In case Alex wonders... I did most of my blind A-B experiments between 21:00 and 1:00 because of these reasons.
Fortunately the neighbours NEVER complained !

Added bonus of late night listening... your ears are much more sensitive so you can turn down the volume a notch or few.

Human hearing has a dynamic range of about 60dB (I made a special test gear to check this, will post a pic) during the day this range shifts upwards (why you can't hear a clock ticking during the day but can at night) you can even shift it up much more by going to a disco or (loud) rock concert. When you step out it takes a good hour to hear the street noises again... the AGC in your brain adjusts slowly.

[Deleted]

For me, late night listening is absolutely stunning. I have no idea what is going on, but the same tracks listened to late sound totally different and I know it's in my head.

I have been saying this for years Ian, tried my PS1000 yesterday afternoon, they sounded awful, thought there was something wrong with them, swapped over to my 250`s they sounded awful, changed over to another Amp, that sounded terrible too.

Just tried again, everything back to normal, this happens to me quiet often, not only when using HP`s, but also on my main domestic system.

I think it has a lot to do with the mood your in, however, i don`t think i was in a bad mood yesterday, so perhaps that theory is out of the window, atmospherics!! can that play a part!! possibly.

Mick.