Burning CD-R with a BluRay Burner

[Deleted]

Anybody with a BluRay Burner tried burning CD-Rs with it ?
The attached was a recent post in DIYAudio.

SandyK


TerryO []
diyAudio Member

Online
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle,Wash.


New Burning Technique Post #125
I actually think this could be a separate topic, however it also fits in with this one.

Recently (last Thursday) a member of our Audio Club gave a demo of some of his lastest projects. He is the owner of a SOTA mastering lab, and as such, trys out different methodologies, techniques and gear on a regular basis.

One thing he came up with that relates to burning cd-r's is that after running everything through EAC, ect., he burns the cd-r with a:

Blue Ray Burner

As he's an Anethesialogist in his other life, he took two disks (one done with regular cd burner, the other Blue Ray) with him to work at the U of W Medical Center where he examined both under an electron microscope.

He noted that the Pits burned into the diskwith the Blue Ray burner had very precise, clean edges, while the regular cd burner left ragged, rough edges.

He then played both discs, without mentioning which was which. I can say that they did not sound identical, and as it turned out most (99%) of the members liked the Blue Ray burned disc.

Just to make it clear: the Blue Ray burner was used to burn a regular CD-R , not a Blue Ray Disc!

The B-R burners are somewhat expensive at this time, but evidently have the potential to allow us to turn out even better cds for our audio collection.

Best Regards,
TerryO

www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1686208#post1686208

[Deleted]

Follow up.
I recently received the BluRay Burner information from TerryO :

"I just received a reply to an e-mail I sent about the Blue Ray burner.
Here's what he used, but please note that Fry's also has it for the same price:
www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...N82E16827136137

Best Regards,
TerryO"

The BluRay Burner mentioned is the LG GGW-H20L, and sells in the U.S.A. for typically US$249.99.
By coincidence, the same model burner is available from Fluidtek in Sydney for AU$255 at the moment.
SandyK
P.S. I expect that the far greater precision of the burning, would be due to the much shorter wavelength of the Blue Laser.

[XTRProf]

Sandy,

At USD 250, the Bluray burner is really expensive now. So let us see the price drop first before ........................

[Deleted]

At USD 250, the Bluray burner is really expensive now. So let us see the price drop first before ........................XTRprof

Exactly what I am waiting for. Next generation burners should appear shortly ?

[Sol]

Ahhh but will second gen bluray burners be as good .. you know that the accounts will have been at the designs by then!

[Deleted]

Sol
I think as competition between manufacturers hots up, they will have to do better, at least for a few years. In any case, if they still use the Blue Laser for burning CD and DVD, the precision from the smaller wavelength of Blue light will still be there.
Alex
P.S. At least one manufacturer is about to release a 4th generation player.

[XTRProf]

Ha, Ha, I again concur with Alex. During the introduction stage, there will be lots of nitty gritty teething problems to be ironed out. The best products will be along the growth stage before cost cutting comes in nearer the maturity stage.

[rickcr42]

Ha, Ha, I again concur with Alex. During the introduction stage, there will be lots of nitty gritty teething problems to be ironed out

it has been my experience the first generation devices no matter the format are usually about as good as it gets both in performance AND build quality with each suceeding generation,if the format takes hold,being more and more compact due to new chip fabrication (all-in-one rather than specialized chips for each section),less "beefy" in the actual mechanicals but updated in style points AND with "features" that no one actually uses or if they do rarely just because they are there added to justift choosing that particular brand name.

Not a new thing having been the case all the way back to the original compact cassette player as a hi-fi source which all used commercial grade transports mated to discrete electronics later followed by plastic mechanicls and LSI chips for everything,video cassettes that once were top loading MONSTERS built like a tank and that rarely if ever te a video cassette to drawer loading tape sucking but STACKABLE (and costly to repair once the tape wrapped around the drum head ) disposable player plus the original redbook CD players that even though 14 bits (as were the professional PCM recorders many of the current superdiscs are made from ) were complete players with good sonics unlike many modern players (unless you pay through the nose) which need both internal and external help to be even considered as a high fidelity player which may be fine for "tinkerers" but is hardly fair to the average consumer who gets a machine that is pretty much a joke when it is compared to what went before.

so yes.Prices WILL come down but they will also go UP if you want the better player making the MOR (Middle Of The Road ) price of this generation maybe the only real bargain you will get once the format becomes more common and the mass assembly ramps up.

At least if the present follows the blueprint of the past which when it comes to AV it usually does ;D

[XTRProf]

Dec 24, 2008 21:55:21 GMT rickcr42 said:

Ha, Ha, I again concur with Alex. During the introduction stage, there will be lots of nitty gritty teething problems to be ironed out

it has been my experience the first generation devices no matter the format are usually about as good as it gets both in performance AND build quality with each suceeding generation,if the format takes hold,being more and more compact due to new chip fabrication (all-in-one rather than specialized chips for each section),less "beefy" in the actual mechanicals but updated in style points AND with "features" that no one actually uses or if they do rarely just because they are there added to justift choosing that particular brand name.

Not a new thing having been the case all the way back to the original compact cassette player as a hi-fi source which all used commercial grade transports mated to discrete electronics later followed by plastic mechanicls and LSI chips for everything,video cassettes that once were top loading MONSTERS built like a tank and that rarely if ever te a video cassette to drawer loading tape sucking but STACKABLE (and costly to repair once the tape wrapped around the drum head ) disposable player plus the original redbook CD players that even though 14 bits (as were the professional PCM recorders many of the current superdiscs are made from ) were complete players with good sonics unlike many modern players (unless you pay through the nose) which need both internal and external help to be even considered as a high fidelity player which may be fine for "tinkerers" but is hardly fair to the average consumer who gets a machine that is pretty much a joke when it is compared to what went before.

so yes.Prices WILL come down but they will also go UP if you want the better player making the MOR (Middle Of The Road ) price of this generation maybe the only real bargain you will get once the format becomes more common and the mass assembly ramps up.

At least if the present follows the blueprint of the past which when it comes to AV it usually does ;D

Err, I'm talking of the best machines will be around version 3 to 4. Versions 1 and 2 obviously will have some flaws as during the Beta tests (sample sizes limited for obvious reasons), those were not revealed until launched into the REAL environment where there will be 101 ways to screw things up. I have been there before during my days making hard disc drives for Seagate, Maxtor, Ministor, etc where there will be a very unusual high return rate to the service centre during versions 1 to 2 with stability coming in around versions 3 to 4 onwards. Well, you had said it right for much later versions where the bloody engineers will be forced to cut costs from the top and I can assure you the engineers don't like that at all as they saw their creations from a "man" turned into a "boy" and more "toy" like. This was on top of other projects they will be given as the older projects matured. ;D That was about 10 years ago. Just before I left, due to cost cutting, the burn in process, which had been for 2 to 4 ORT days depending on which customers, was cut to 0. Yes, 0 burn in ORT day and the products are nowadays unORTed. The mentality is that since customers want them cheap, let the customers do the burn in at home. Only when spoiled then let the customers return to the service centre at the customer downtime inconvenience. I wouldn't be surprise the service centre will be jammed with complaints and return drives instead of at the process in house rework section which is just for the pure purpose of FV and repairing failed drives in the whole manufacturing process including BI before letting them loose to the customers. So that's why at present, there are so many complaints about quality issues and whatever jazz ........ It will the the same for all products as they follow suit for the cost competiveness game. So don't complaint as all will be the same and the service centres will not be able to help much due to the bloody cost cutting process.

[XTRProf]

Hey Alex,

Nowadays, there are Bluray spec sacds just as what the Bluray writer can do to burn cdrs and the claimed advantage technically. Whether we can hear the diffrence will be another issue though. Here's the report of what Sony is releasing. Hmm .............., could it be another last effort ditch to milk the failed sacd format?

www.homecinemachoice.com/features/blu-spec+CD+sounds+better

Also, there are green backing sacds being released in view of what the green marker pen can do also in that report. I'm trying to get both from Emi Fujita.

[Deleted]

Chong
I am not surprised that CDs burned with a Blue Laser ,sound better than those burned with the much larger wavelength RED laser in normal CD/DVD burners, and the resulting higher precision of the pits and lands, but I wonder what all this has to do with Commercial CDs which are stamped from a glass Master.
Surely modern CDs aren't created from an initial burn using a Red Laser,then a glass master made ? I convinced myself that the green pen trick worked with commercial CDs , but I will be interested to see what the green printed surface will do for sound quality. (if anything !)
Alex

[XTRProf]

Dec 29, 2008 2:05:29 GMT @sandyk said:

but I wonder what all this has to do with Commercial CDs which are stamped from a glass Master.
Surely modern CDs aren't created from an initial burn using a Red Laser,then a glass master made ? I convinced myself that the green pen trick worked with commercial CDs , but I will be interested to see what the green printed surface will do for sound quality. (if anything !)
Alex

Yes, you got a point there about the glass master unless it's burned directly and we have the final product just like the LPCD 45 that I'm talking of previously from Hugo. But Hugo doesn't use Bluray burner at present. It will be very worthwhile to try any Bluray spec LPCD45 when they are doing it commercially.

[Deleted]

Dec 29, 2008 1:25:21 GMT XTRProf said:

Hey Alex,

Nowadays, there are Bluray spec sacds just as what the Bluray writer can do to burn cdrs and the claimed advantage technically. Whether we can hear the diffrence will be another issue though. Here's the report of what Sony is releasing. Hmm .............., could it be another last effort ditch to milk the failed sacd format?

www.homecinemachoice.com/features/blu-spec+CD+sounds+better

Also, there are green backing sacds being released in view of what the green marker pen can do also in that report. I'm trying to get both from Emi Fujita.

XTRProf
Attached is a link to a swag of new Blu spec CD releases in Japan.
I'm almost tempted to try a couple.
SandyK

www.cdjapan.co.jp/popular_formats/Blu-spec-CD/index.html?gclid=CO3S8OiM6JcCFQhJagod5QmcDg

[XTRProf]

Dec 30, 2008 10:17:09 GMT @sandyk said:

Dec 29, 2008 1:25:21 GMT XTRProf said:

Hey Alex,

Nowadays, there are Bluray spec sacds just as what the Bluray writer can do to burn cdrs and the claimed advantage technically. Whether we can hear the diffrence will be another issue though. Here's the report of what Sony is releasing. Hmm .............., could it be another last effort ditch to milk the failed sacd format?

www.homecinemachoice.com/features/blu-spec+CD+sounds+better

Also, there are green backing sacds being released in view of what the green marker pen can do also in that report. I'm trying to get both from Emi Fujita.

XTRProf
Attached is a link to a swag of new Blu spec CD releases in Japan.
I'm almost tempted to try a couple.
SandyK

www.cdjapan.co.jp/popular_formats/Blu-spec-CD/index.html?gclid=CO3S8OiM6JcCFQhJagod5QmcDg

Let's wait for the blu-spec SACDs or Bluray Audio DVDs. I'm sure it will turn up there in the hirez medium. In fact, Bluray Audio DVDs should be Blu-spec already, right?

[Deleted]

Hands-on with a BluRay Writer.

On Sunday I purchased an LG GGW-H20L writer for AU$255.
I was spurred on by the impending price rises due to the current economic climate.
Previously, I have posted that a Kodak 24K Gold Preservation
CD-R had revealed quite noticeable improvements over a normal high quality CD-R when my compilation music CD was burned on it. This was when using my Oppo DVD981HD player via SPDIF, into my modified Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3 into a Class A preamp, and then a 15W Ch. Class A Power Amplifier.
This time I decided to use the same type of Kodak Gold CD-R, but find out for myself if the story about the higher quality CD-Rs created using the higher precision, shorter wavelength Blue Laser was true.
Straight off, I felt the need to turn up the attenuator a couple of notches. This is usually a good sign ,as although the peak level is actually the same, it doesn't sound as loud as with a poorer system. The tracks on the test CD sounded cleaner, and with a further improvement in soundstage and the sense of being there,
but is easier to listen to without fatigue.
My cat had been laying quietly under my listening chair, until I came to a track of a thunderstorm, which had been downmixed from a Surround Sound Audiophile sampler disc. This was far too realistic for the poor cat, and she took off ! I must admit that it was the most realistic sounding thunderstorm that I had ever heard from a CD. BTW, the tracks had been previously ripped to a HDD as .wav files, using a recent version of E.A.C.
This time, the claims are not all hype. I read that a CD burned using this model BluRay Writer had been examined under a hospital's Electron Microscope, and the pits and lands of the burned waveform were markedly superior to a normal high quality CD-R using a conventional CD/DVD Writer. The Japanese are also now selling Audiophile CDs created from masters that were created using BluRay, after being sourced from high quality master tapes.

SandyK

[toad]

Very interesting stuff Alex. I wonder how the Pioneer BluRay burners would compare. I rate the older Pioneer DVD writers. So much so that I've kept my old 4 speed in case my 8 speed packs in at some point in the future.

[Deleted]

Toad
I chose this particular burner because it was locally available at a good price. It also happened to be the one used where the U.S.A. listening test was carried out, as well as the burned disc checked under the Electron Microscope.
I see no reason why the Pioneer BluRay writer wouldn't perform as well, as it's the shorter
wavelength Blue Laser that enables such precision. I again used a 24K gold Kodak Archival disc, as I really didn't expect much further improvement.
Next test will be to see how good quality Music Videos with 48KHZ LPCM audio, look and sound after being burned by a Blue Laser on a good quality DVD-R.
Alex
P.S. My remaining DVD writer is a Pioneer, as was the SATA writer that the BluRay writer replaced. Unfortunately, I didn't have another SATA port available, hence the swap.

[Deleted]

I asked a while back if the LG model below SandyK's, ie reads Blu but only writes normal DVD would do the same job. That is, is it a blue laser?

Didn't get a reply but it was in the middle of another thread.

Anyone know?

juke


Edited in error.

[Deleted]

Juke
You would need to get the model no. and look at the specifications. It seems highly unlikely that they would fit the more expensive Blue Laser, then not use it for writing BluRay discs.
They would be using the normal "red" laser for writing CD/DVD
SandyK

[Deleted]

SandyK
I looked at thespec but it doesn't mention the laser type. I assumed it needed a blue laser to read the Blu discs so therefore may use the same laser to burn DVD-Rs. juke

[Deleted]

Juke
I have done quite a bit of searching, but I am unable to find further details on how it is implemented. If you are considering buying one, why not email LG or Pioneer to see if their readers use blue laser for CD/DVD burning, or a combo unit with a red laser. It is also possible that they use a cheaper low powered blue laser for reading BluRay.
Alex

[Deleted]

Thanks SandyK. I just thought it might be worth pursuing as the one's I have are a lot cheaper than your model. Didn't cross my mind that there could be lower powered variations of the blu laser.

juke

[jeffc]

Alex,

A question about writing speed. Like most I've collected a few CD/DVD burners over the years and use older CD types for burning CDs as invariably the faster/newer DVD types don't support burning a lowish speeds (4x or 8x). Not sure I can hear any difference, but I've had better reliability with slower burns and consided it just good practice. Does the LG Blu-Ray support writing at low speeds.

Ta.. jeffc

[Deleted]

jeffc
I burned my CDs at 4 x with the LG BluRay writer. That's as low as it goes.
Check out the attached link, and you will see that there are now available many BluRay burned favourites available. I have ordered the one in the link, and it is due for release early next month. It cost me just under AU$40 including Registered Air Mail delivery.
Alex

www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=SICP-20048#

[jeffc]

Thanks Alex,

Interesting compilation and site, you'll have to A/B it against the same disk burned onto a Kodak Gold archival disk. Mates and I did a similar test the other night, original vs Maxwell black vs Kodak archival. Black disk better than original and Kodak better still, cleaner and more detailed. Black disk tone maybe a bit richer so tried the Kodak again with disk edges blackened with a beveled-edge Sharpie pen. Witchcraft stuff but the consensus was that this improved the Kodak further. Mate gave me the Black disk as a favour for the tip, second hand from you . Good find, at ~$3 ea would be nice for some favourites.

And getting interested in Blu-Ray now as a place has them locally for $219 OEM, $229 retail. Any special software needed to get burns at 4x or will something like Nero do it.

cheers.. jeffc