pagan
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Post by pagan on Mar 11, 2009 11:08:22 GMT
Alex Could you compare the size of the files? One copied EAC bit perfect of the BluRay, and one copied EAC bit perfect of the DVD/CD Rom. Preferably 16/44k1 Same track or album used. Same uncompressed wav file. If the BluRay has more detail in sound, the amount of data it's extracting may be more? or maybe there is less error correcting or the error correction has different math equation. allan Allan Sorry to disappoint you, but size is identical . e.g. Track1 =65,566,748 bytes on both versions. Alex Alex Then I would like to know where the extra detail is coming from? allan |
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 11, 2009 11:14:09 GMT
Hey Alex, What are the Blu specs Jap CD titles you are refering to? I'm interested in any jazz vocal and jazz stuffs. Where did you buy them from in Japan? Thanks. XTRProf The link is below. They also have a Jazz sampler, which I ordered today. Also, there are complete CDs from the artists on the samplers, but they are more expensive. The Blu-spec CDs should be better because their masters are more accurately burned. SandyK www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=SICP-20048#I saw the titles available now and only the jazz sampler is of some musical and sonic interest. It will be great if they have the Time Out Dave Brubeck but now only as one of the the songs in the jazz sampler. Also, it will be great if they have Muddy Water Folk Singer as well. The Mofi gold disc is a stunner for the last title as well as a collector item now at very very high price.  How much you paid for shipping? Thanks. |
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robertkd
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Post by robertkd on Mar 11, 2009 11:22:17 GMT
Allan Sorry to disappoint you, but size is identical . e.g. Track1 =65,566,748 bytes on both versions. Alex Alex Then I would like to know where the extra detail is coming from? allan my only observation here is that the data came from symbol tables from the original CD, converted to a bite stream saved off carefully (with attention to big endian/little endian constraints) read back, converted to symbol tables and written with more definition optically thus reducing eyehight error due to skinny light VS fat light recording techniques. I can only surmise poorer subsequent decoding and error correction processing is able to cope better because of the better data slice rate compared to say fat light recorded symbol tables ,....    Robert |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 11:23:55 GMT
Allan
It's probably there all already. Most likely that the majority of affordable players aren't capable of extracting an accurate stream without jitter,reflections affecting the reading, and PSU modulation, due to transport motor tracking requirements etc. Don't forget that with most players a 24K Gold CD-R copy from the HDD usually sounds better than the original, but the data on the disc is identical. Most likely the readability of these discs is markedly better due to their precision, as well as different disc formulation.
Alex
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 11, 2009 11:31:29 GMT
Actually, this whole thing about better sound from Bluspec cds is already well said by the qoute from cdjapan and that is: Compared to the conventional laser beam used for the manufacturing of standard CD, the blue laser beam used for the manufacturing of Blu-spec CD has a shorter wavelength, allowing more accurate encoding of the data. The use of the laser also eliminates the need to use cooling fans that cause vibrations. Furthermore, polycarbonate plastic optimized for Blu-ray is used to ensure accurate reading of the data. Better reading of data and, hence, lesser correction by the Solomon Reed. So what the end result we are hearing is from a less overworked corrector. |
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Mar 11, 2009 11:31:50 GMT
Alex Then I would like to know where the extra detail is coming from? allan my only observation here is that the data came from symbol tables from the original CD, converted to a bite stream saved off carefully (with attention to big endian/little endian constraints) read back, converted to symbol tables and written with more definition optically thus reducing eyehight error due to skinny light VS fat light recording techniques. I can only surmise poorer subsequent decoding and error correction processing is able to cope better because of the better data slice rate compared to say fat light recorded symbol tables ,.... Robert Ok then For cdplayers with internal error corection yes but these were read of disc with EAC Alex were the crc no's the same in EAC? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 11:40:59 GMT
XTRProf
Mine cost me AU$20 for registerd post, and arrived in well under a week. Total was around AU$42
SandyK
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 11, 2009 11:41:06 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 11:46:50 GMT
Allan
I would expect so. I didn't save the EAC reports.
If I get a chance tomorrow, I will listen to some selected tracks off the HDD for comparison. However, like TG , I don't expect any audible difference.
Alex
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 11, 2009 11:48:30 GMT
my only observation here is that the data came from symbol tables from the original CD, converted to a bite stream saved off carefully (with attention to big endian/little endian constraints) read back, converted to symbol tables and written with more definition optically thus reducing eyehight error due to skinny light VS fat light recording techniques. I can only surmise poorer subsequent decoding and error correction processing is able to cope better because of the better data slice rate compared to say fat light recorded symbol tables ,.... Robert Ok then For cdplayers with internal error corection yes but these were read of disc with EAC But we are talking of reading data from a CD on a cd player and not from EAC. All cd players have Solomon Reed. I don't think anyone has HEARD a read direct from EAC. That may be even better than Bluspec CDs. Maybe the wav sound from EAC is that "perfect" sound we are looking for. But then do we have the PERFECT software player to play it? |
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Mar 11, 2009 11:51:21 GMT
Allan I would expect so. I didn't save the EAC reports. If I get a chance tomorrow, I will listen to some selected tracks off the HDD for comparison. However, like TG , I don't expect any audible difference. Alex Alex I'd be interested in CD audio disc's ripped 16/44k1 EAC between BluRay and Normal player. To see any data difference. allan |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 12:00:18 GMT
Shit !!!  They do sound quite different when played from the HDD using Creative Media Source player.! (Sexual Healing-Marvin Gaye) despite identical file sizes. The voice isn't as prominent in the BD copy either, as if it's less diffused, like with higher channel separation, for example. Because of time constraints, I did copy the normal CD using the faster Pioneer writer and EAC to give Allan a quick answer. Both were reported by EAC as accurate copies. SandyK |
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Post by jeffc on Mar 11, 2009 12:02:09 GMT
Will,
Thanks for the offer, might take you up on this if I have no luck in my search for black CD-Rs locally or somewhere that will ship internationally from the UK.
Alex,
Does this "(Black label) I have found so far, where the original recording was well made, it sounds bloody fantastic !" mean you have also tried, and like, the black CD-Rs?
cheers.. jeffc
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Mar 11, 2009 12:06:02 GMT
Shit !!! They do sound quite different when played from the HDD using Creative Media Source player.! (Sexual Healing-Marvin Gaye) despite identical file sizes. The voice isn't as prominent in the BD copy either, as if it's less diffused, like with higher channel separation, for example. Because of time constraints, I did copy the normal CD using the faster Pioneer writer and EAC to give Allan a quick answer. Both were reported by EAC as accurate copies. SandyK Alex So we have it down to same Bit count but difference sound. Must be the same bit's in a different sequence allan |
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tg
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Post by tg on Mar 11, 2009 12:27:59 GMT
Just hold fire there, what we have here is two different discs ripped on two different technology drives - that they sound different means little.
If we had the same disc ripped on two different technology drives giving a different sounding result when played from the HDD then we might have a question or two.
I do not see that an MD5 hash has been calculated over the two files and matched, only that the rips were reported as accurate, they can quite legitimately be so and still differ if the source discs differ.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 12:33:47 GMT
Jeff
Because the BD CD sounded so much better than normal, I hadn't got around to listening to the normal CD version with the black printed label. (I should have made that clearer) I was referring to the quality of the original recording session,age of the recording etc. Because Allan asked a question, I ripped the normal recording a little while ago. I thought I would have to do a critical listening session tomorrow to try and pick any audible differences. With the only track compared (Sexual Healing) it was very obvious.
Alex
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 12:41:21 GMT
Just hold fire there, what we have here is two different discs ripped on two different technology drives - that they sound different means little. If we had the same disc ripped on two different technology drives giving a different sounding result when played from the HDD then we might have a question or two. I do not see that an MD5 hash has been calculated over the two files and matched, only that the rips were reported as accurate, they can quite legitimately be so and still differ if the source discs differ. Tony I fully realise that, and intend doing another rip of the normal CD tomorrow, but using the BD player this time. I only did it this way to give Allan a quick answer about how file sizes compared. Alex |
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tg
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Post by tg on Mar 11, 2009 12:59:12 GMT
Alex,
my response was not so much directed to you as the post immediately preceding.
Which, to me, drew conclusions not supported by the evidence presented.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 22:12:46 GMT
Initial tests this morning, using the LG BluRay writer for both discs with E.A.C. , show that both file sizes and CRC are identical on all tracks from both the Blu-spec CD and the normal CD.
I intend looking at track 17 with Sony Sound Forge 9, after I finish extracting the normal CD files to the HDD, and see if I can come up with either different statistics, or visible differences.
Unfortunately, reading and copying via the Blu Ray writer is VERY slow, in fact almost twice the total track time is needed to complete extraction.
SandyK
P.S. The statistics given by Sound Forge 9 for both versions of track 1 are identical. (Still extracting from normal version)
If anybody has doubts about results so far, I have saved screen grabs of the various results as .jpegs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 23:37:21 GMT
I now have saved both versions to HDD, and so far I am unable to find any irrefutable evidence as to why the Blu-spec version sounds markedly better than the normal CD version after extracting both versions to HDD using E.A.C. and the LG BluRay burner. However, the audible difference is markedly in favour of the Blu-spec version in many respects. The channel separation and localisation is markedly better, Marvin Gaye's voice, as I remarked previously is not so prominent in the mix, but is more pinpoint and natural sounding, everything has more "air" around it. It sounds more like a higher resolution recording from a master source than a normal CD. Any other suggestions as to what to look for, in order to pinpoint why this is so, other than installing other software programs ? SandyK P.S. Further info at : www.homecinemachoice.com/features/blu-spec+CD+sounds+better |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2009 9:36:28 GMT
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Mar 12, 2009 9:44:57 GMT
Alex
so both files are 16/44k1 uncompressed wav's?
same 16/44k1 source disc, just eac copy from different cdrom's.
Can you do a frequency comparison of both playbacks?
preferably range 10Hz to 100kHz
Now the hard part is to find why?
allan
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2009 9:54:05 GMT
Allan
How do you propose that I do that ?
Yes,Both discs are 16 bit 44.1K and meet "red book" standards. They are now on my HDD after EAC copy using the LG BluRay writer for both. Listening results are as posted in reply 69.
Alex
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Mar 12, 2009 10:55:35 GMT
Alex
In the audio software you had for recording/analyzing vinyl material?
allan
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2009 11:35:45 GMT
Alex In the audio software you had for recording/analyzing vinyl material? allan Allan I don't recall having any that could do that. I have emailed you a screen grab from SF9 with a Spectrum Analysis, but the window is too small for good resolution, although you can expand sections and get readings by hovering over it. Even if I knew how to drive it, I think the window is far too small for comparison purposes. I magnified the size in what I sent you. Alex |
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