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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 10:48:02 GMT
I agree they are not anywhere near professional quality. They can go loud but do not have a high power rating so the voice coils will burn out when left unattended at high volumes. Prof headphones usually can handle 2 to 4W ! Also the non detachable/non replaceable thin wire does not scream 'professional' I believe they much improved their T50P, but being afraid they could not sell the T50P next to the DT1350 in the portable market. Both are priced and looking quite similar. The T50P sounds MUCH less than DT1350 but the price difference doesn't say so. I believe it was intended as an 'upmarket' hifi phone but because of the analytical trades it has, and the T50P in the home market, shoved it in the 'pro' corner. For me (using it not professionally) this doesn't matter at all, as I handle each headphone with care. They just have to sound excellent, don't look daft or too flashy/obvious and be comfortable. The comfort part is not the greatest, being on-ear, but I can manage several hours without much discomfort. It simply sounds WAY better than any of the portable phones I have/had/heard and is the only important thing to me. Fixing the HD25 pads, so they don't fall off easily and getting a slightly bigger case for it (The DT1350 fits tight in one position only) and the faceplate issue can easily be solved.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Feb 23, 2012 10:50:20 GMT
The 1350 is made in Beyer's own production plant in Heilbronn Germany. This is a bit uncharacteristics of the Germans as they are crazy about quality as the Japs. Perhaps, this shows how different generations of workers look at quality. Really, for about USD 250-300 bucks, I will be very angry.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 10:59:12 GMT
I am not angry at all. disappointed on certain aspects maybe. For me it's ONLY about the sound and comfort. the rest can easily be solved.
I don't care if it's made in Germany, USA, Japan, China or in my own country.
Is the sound quality worth the money ?... I think so. Will it last long if I treat it carefully ? ... I certainly think so. Do I look like a fool wearing it ? ... no more than with most other portable headphones.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Feb 23, 2012 11:05:34 GMT
Really, I still remember a time when some products came with QC tags signed off proudly by the inspectors.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Feb 23, 2012 11:12:27 GMT
I don't care if it's made in Germany, USA, Japan, China or in my own country. I also don't care as long as it don't fall apart at the USD 300 region. But unfortunately this is not the case as traditionally those poor sources are from you know where. Remember the infamous Made In Japan tag eons ago to depict any product that fail or fall apart in a short while?
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Feb 23, 2012 11:55:17 GMT
Prof headphones usually can handle 2 to 4W ! Btw, any idea why pro HPs are made to handle that when people, even the DJs, surely don't want to hear at that?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 12:03:31 GMT
Yes, to me they scream, hi end portable for home. My Beyers can be used as speakers!!
I'm curious about them but also about the K550 because it's a full sized headphone around the same price level. (Maybe a little more) It would be more comfortable to wear and is quite low impedance too.
I see a lot of people using the HD25 on mobile locations. Probably because they are so tough and the Beyers couldn't really replace them because of that.
It sounds as though they have a lot going for them in the sound department though which is what I'm quite curious about. Once you get into £200 and higher though, you wuldn't want to make too many mistakes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 13:09:28 GMT
Prof headphones usually can handle 2 to 4W ! Btw, any idea why pro HPs are made to handle that when people, even the DJs, surely don't want to hear at that? It's because they can also be used as tiny speakers hanging around the neck or on a console and playing loud enough to hear (obviosly you don't hear bass anymore). This is important in studios and for DJ's. The downside is the copper wire is thicker and thus heavier so the frequency range is more limited. The guys using these for their work don't care about nuances e.t.c.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 13:12:05 GMT
Indeed, this is why I audition most headphones when I can. Not always possible though and in that case I sell them and the loss I make I consider 'learning fee'. Wouldn't have bought it without hearing it first at this price level. Most internet shops return funds if bought there so in that case, if you don't like it, it'll only cost you the shipping fee as 'learning fee'. It's even more expensive than my HD650 was and about the maximum I (personally) am WILLING to spend on it. The overall quality of finish, feel, fit and sound is top notch. cable microphony and the fact one faceplate wasn't pressed on there hard enough during assembly (the worker was probably being carefull) doesn't make it a bad product or below par quality. How much quality control does one need to check how well something was stuck on there ? How do you test ? If it doesn't fall off during construction it will pass quality control. It certainly doesn't weigh as heavy as the excellent audio quality and looks/feel.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 13:32:20 GMT
I haven't had much personal synergy with the AKG's I owned and auditioned. Whenever I see one demo-ed somewhere I always have a listen. Very possible some AKG's will surprise me when I least expect it. This might be one of them. Nothing wrong with the brand, but in most cases certain Sennheisers and Beyers suit me better. Have the same with Grado's and most AT's... excellent headphones with excellent qualities but not the ones that suit my personal taste.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 13:47:17 GMT
I can understand that. Me too. The only one I get on with if I'm honest is the K601. Just taking that top edge away from the K701 does it for me.
Another closed headphone I use (but is quite strongly coloured) is the AT A900. Not bad, but I must admit, I haven't yet found the ultimate closed headphone for me. The a900 doesn't quite go deep enough for me, but the DT1350 looks like it really does dig down there.
It's a difficult area with all the reflections going on inside them. Yet, when I was younger, I was addicted to closed headphones - wouold never consider open, although I did use the Senn HD414's a lot mainly because they were modular and tough.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 14:45:26 GMT
The D2000 and D7000 (so probably also D5000) I also found pretty impressive for a closed can. When I can get my hands on a D2000 for less than E 200.- I might buy it.
DT770 was fine at first listen but showed its flaws soon enough. HD250-II I owned for several years until the dip in the mid-lows and slightly peaked highs began to bother me.
I own the DT1350 for a short period and sometimes find it bass-light but on music with real lows in it it is fabulaous. I do tend to listen at higher volume levels with it because of the eaxct same reasons.
The DT990 one can enjoy at low levels. The DT1350 shines at higher powers.
Acc. to Tyll's measurements the distortion becomes lower at higher power levels which seems correct to my ears. This is rarely seen in headphones as the distortion from 10Hz to 10kHz remains below 1% at 90dB and below 0.3% at 100dB These are also more 'prof' values than home audio which is usually listened to at lower SPL.
Something to keep in mind perhaps when considering to buy.
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Post by dalethorn on Feb 23, 2012 16:27:56 GMT
For an example of German -vs- Japanese quality, at least as of 15 years ago, my VW Beetles circa 1970 and 1974, and my Honda Civics circa 1982 and 1987. All 4 cars had mechanical windows, mirrors, etc. The VW parts broke within 2 to 3 years - the Honda parts were still fine after 6 years on the first car, and 18(!) years on the second car. My German Leica X1 was a bit iffy, and many customers reported skins peeling, loose knobs, various other problems. My Japanese cameras (made in Japan) were all perfect, although Panasonic's pockets cameras in the ZS3/TZ7 class felt rather cheap and failed on some users. When it comes to Beyerdynamic, the way they route the wires to the earcups on the DT-48E, the DT-1350, and other similar headphones does not inspire my confidence. Now with the German Maestro 8.35D and the Shure 940 for examples, you don't see any wires at all except the one cord going to the left earcup. Looking closely at the 1350, it would take a very different headband design to hide the wires. Which is one reason I prefer double entry.
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Post by dalethorn on Feb 23, 2012 16:38:57 GMT
I would really like to see a comparison of the Beyer DT-48 series driver assembly to the Tesla drivers. Here's a description of the DT-48 driver construction from Beyer internals:
1. Aluminum driver. No foil like other headphones. 2. Diaphragm embossed with compressed air instead of a stamp. 3. The magnet is also a ring (just like the Tesla drivers). 4. All metal design and construction - nuts and bolts. 5. Diaphragm and magnet are not glued together like the majority of headphones. They are encased in their own metal housing. 6. No plastic or clips. 7. Transducers are hand selected and perfectly matched for optimal balance. (DT48A only**).
"The heart of the DT48 is a heat formed aluminum membrane to which a hand wound moving coil is attached. This assembly is mounted within a housing machined from a solid block of aluminum, which also contains a special high powered magnet assembly held in a machine cut thread. The back cover is also machined from aluminum to such fine tolerances that a perfect hermetic seal is formed. The result of this unprecedented design and construction is a headphone with truly outstanding characteristics."
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Post by dalethorn on Feb 23, 2012 19:47:36 GMT
BTW, if anyone thinks the DT-1350 cord is thin (about 2.1 mm thick), I just checked another high quality $300 product - the B&W P5. The cord on the B&W P5 is approx. 1.8 mm thick, although side by side with the DT-1350 it looks a lot thinner than 1.8 to 2.1. I don't see how they can get a stereo signal through a cord that thin.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 21:56:19 GMT
Why wouldn't a stereo signal 'fit' through thin wires ?
If you have an old headphone you can demolish open it up and take out the membrane. See how THIN the wires are inside the driver. Since wires are in series with the one from the driver the current is always the same. If it can pass through the drivers wires it can pass through anything, even wires thinner than the ones in the headphone. So thickness is NO issue at all.
It ONLY may become an issue if the wiring has a common return wire. This is explained in my resistance article.
Just look at in ears and how thin those leads are.
Thick cables simply are only that... thicker with thicker insulation. Thick means sturdy.
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Post by slwiser on Feb 23, 2012 22:14:00 GMT
Moon Audio IEM Silver Dragon wire is 26wg and sound very good to me. Mine are also double entry.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Feb 24, 2012 0:21:36 GMT
Dale as the owner of a 1970 VW Beetle with over 435,000 miles I can not agree with you. My beetle is still on its original transmission.
However, the 2002 Audi TT and 2001 BMW 525 I had were pieces of junk! Yet still have a 2004 Lexus RX330 which has been fantastic and hope to keep for a couple more years.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2012 9:54:05 GMT
I would really like to see a comparison of the Beyer DT-48 series driver assembly to the Tesla drivers. Here's a description of the DT-48 driver construction from Beyer internals: 1. Aluminum driver. No foil like other headphones. 2. Diaphragm embossed with compressed air instead of a stamp. 3. The magnet is also a ring (just like the Tesla drivers). 4. All metal design and construction - nuts and bolts. 5. Diaphragm and magnet are not glued together like the majority of headphones. They are encased in their own metal housing. 6. No plastic or clips. 7. Transducers are hand selected and perfectly matched for optimal balance. (DT48A only**). Perhaps funk1969 could perhaps give his opinion as he is one of the few owners of several DT48's (aside from yourself) in the Grotto. It will have similar traits as the DT1350. Not a real HiFi phone in the sense of presentation but more an honest phone for people who like to analyse things. Hifi phones have a more pleasant coloration/vividnes and can sound better at lower volume levels. This is also a reason to shove the DT1350 in the pro corner. For this headphone to sound good you need to turn it up higher in SPL than most other headphones with lifted lows and highs. Since it is very efficient turning up higher isn't meant as a higher volpot setting. I have to turn down the volume more often when switching songs than with other headphones, also an indication it needs higher SPL to sound 'correct'. The DT1350 sounds very good to people who care about a certain presentation, but will most definitely not be everybody's friend. In fact most might find it lifeless and bass-shy. I personally get lots of enjoyment out of it, just like out of ortho's. I noticed you were banned from head-fi (like so many people these days)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2012 10:58:42 GMT
Any idea how the Beyerdynamic T50 P Headphones differ from the 1350`s Frans, they look and are priced much the same!!.
Mick.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2012 11:47:15 GMT
I haven't heard them side by side but did listen to the T50p for some time and compared it to my own HD650 and HD681 and some other headphones on my own amp/player.
It WAS able to sound reasonable to good, but you had to press the cups on your ears. Still it had a strange 'honky' mids and although it did have 'something' that I found appealing. The fit (couldn't get it to stay on my ears while the headband rested on my head) and the fact you had to pressure them on the ears and also was very sensitive to positioning (MUCH more so than DT1350) and the VFM put me off. They looked nice though.
The T50p did show to have potential but just isn't IT, and certainly wasn't worth the money to me. It doesn't measure evry well either but quite possible it didn't do so because the fit on the artificial head is far from ideal as well.
I thought the DT1350 may be marginally better so when I found one I could audition I did.
The negatives of the T50p, the fit, clamping force, positioning and overall sound, were MUCH improved for my personal usage and instantly liked the sound (did hear the mid lows and mids were slightly accentuated, especilally on direct comparison with DT770, DT990 and HD280 I know well they had hanging around as well but rather liked it. Since I had only about 30 mins with it and swapped headphones the rather high clamping force struck me as fierce though no pain set in. Also perhaps because it is an early version and swapped HP's to compare with different music.
So for me the difference between the 2 is quite obvious and the DT1350 is MUCH better in all aspects. The price difference doesn't say so but for me the VFM of the DT1350 shot upwards so bought it.
regretted it for a short while till playing with pads and clamping force took away the remaining but's.
mechanically the biggest differences are headband (completely different/better in construction though don't look different), pads (the newer T50p's have DT1350 pads), driver seems improved (claimed by Beyer) and certainly sounds MUCH better, DT1350 is single entry, T50p dual entry, color scheme.
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Post by dalethorn on Feb 24, 2012 16:38:05 GMT
I have to turn down the volume more often when switching songs than with other headphones, also an indication it needs higher SPL to sound 'correct'. The DT1350 sounds very good to people who care about a certain presentation, but will most definitely not be everybody's friend. In fact most might find it lifeless and bass-shy. I personally get lots of enjoyment out of it, just like out of ortho's. I noticed you were banned from head-fi (like so many people these days) It would be interesting to get banned from headfi for being bad, but actually they run it like a private fraternity, at least as far as the more noticeable and serious posters are concerned. I got banned for insisting that there are subliminal aspects of sound that will never show up in blind testing, and the mods on the "science" forum could not accept that idea, or my support of it. Then I was accused of being some other entity who they described as a troll. There are many other interesting aspects to that place. On the 1350, the DT-48's are an interesting compare. The 1970's models, apparently identical to the ones today except for the earpads, had essentially no bass and severely rolled off highs. I was able to make a DT-48 sound almost exactly like a Koss ESP-9 within a decibel at any frequency, using a Soundcraftsmen equalizer then. The positions of the sliders were telling. Now with the new earpads and the large drop in efficiency to accomodate the boost in bass and treble the earpads provide, it sounds quite good - weak in the lower bass, somewhat dark in the presence area around 5 to 7 khz, and slightly bright in the highs with strong extension to 18 khz or so. But here's the rub with the 1350 - compared to the DT-48 with the new pads, played without EQ, the DT-1350 with -8 db of EQ at 440 hz and -6 db at the adjacent sliders etc. sounds almost tinny compared to the DT-48. Yet listened to for awhile, the bass with the 1350 seems very competent. There's something peculiar going on with those Beyer designs that doesn't seem (to me) to have an analogy in most other brands.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2012 18:41:51 GMT
Ah.. the other place.. lovely Main reason why I am only posting here. You could not sell your idea's to me also, but at least I wouldn't ban anyone for their ideas. Most Grotto dwellers will likely support some of your theories by the way and welcome them.
The graphs out there on DT48 and DT1350 are only available from Tyll or Beyer themselves. They tell different stories (Beyer and Tyll) and judging FWIR I will listen to a DT48 when I have the chance. There is a valid reason why the DT48 isn't sold as a hifi phone. Not many people will appreciate it's sonic properties, as will be the case with the DT1350, though the DT1350 is more HiFi-ish.
Funny thing with Tyll is sometimes I completely agree with his assessments and with certain vid's I think he talks complete nonsense. Sometimes he appears to be very knowledgeable and sometimes he speaks utter BS or makes weird assumptions.
Sometimes Tyll's graphs verify what I heard, sometimes I question his measurements (as is more or less the case with the DT48). When in doubt I look for graphs from Goldenears to verify them or 2 other Asian sites. Alas they haven't measured as much interesting HP's as Tyll has. These other sites use even other methods/test gear and plot their graphs in more flattering scales. Comparing them can be a B... even for me. Goldenears uses different HRTF corrections AND plot 'ideal lines' based on their HRTF corrections. This means the 'ideal line isn't continuously sloping downwards as is the case with Headroom graphs (they differ from Tyll's graphs a bit eventhough most are measured by Tyll) but slope downwards till a few hundred Hz and then continue horizontal. This is because of the different corrections used. Therefor their plots differ in the mid-highs to highs and lows from Tyll's, but knowing this I can 'extract' the info I seek.
Funny how easily the brain can adapt to good headphones and takes longer for less quality headphones (if possible at all). It's important to realize how easily the brain can play tricks on someone, even when they are well aware it still happens. Just like visual illusions it comes across as real, but in certain cases it's just that sodding brain playing tricks. This has made me weary for subjective findings where as most audiophiles see that in a different light.
There will never be consensus nor will there ever be a test method that is fully accepted by both 'sides'.
I don't like to EQ headphones for a few simple reasons. 1: you introduce other artifacts (in most cases) and the question is it worth that. 2: every headphone needs it's own correction, so when using different headphones this has to be set also. 3: not all devices have equalizers that address the proper bands. 4: If it needs much correction it isn't good to begin with. 5: it's part of the character of the headphone. 6: If possible I build a simple passive filter so the headphone is always 'filtered' on all gear. 7: Sometimes simple mechanical alterations can alter just enough. 8: The brain 'compensates' in most cases if the EQ-ing isn't very 'complex' but takes time, sometimes days.
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Post by dalethorn on Feb 24, 2012 23:34:50 GMT
Three things: My theories are just working hypotheses - I am not committed to any fixed theory. Two, if the Sennheiser HD-800 in its overall balance or signature is hifi, then my DT-48A is a lot closer to hifi than the DT-1350. And I would add to that, that when NOT EQ'd, the DT-1350 isn't even on the map. Stereophile has quite a post on J. Gordon Holt's observations of midrange balance and how important that is to hifi. Third, my ideas on EQ are very simple and I don't think they qualify as a theory exactly - I use my ears. I listen with what I think is minimal EQ, then click the box to switch it out. In the case of the DT-1350, whatever minor distortions are introduced by the EQ (and that depends greatly on what method and software you use), the difference with the un-EQ'd sound completely blows the distortion question out of the water. It's just a vast difference. Now to be fair, people have their personal preferences, and a relatively tiny distortion and huge sound signature difference (also a distortion) for me, may translate with another person to huge EQ distortion and minor signature distortion. And to be honest, I don't completely trust either one of our opinions on that, although I need your opinion to double-check my own. In the long run, I much prefer to present my findings and then let others offer their own experiences.
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Post by dalethorn on Feb 24, 2012 23:47:17 GMT
Need to do this separately: I've found it very useful to have several top-quality headphones on the desk, where I can switch back and forth and easily identify the sound signature differences, which correlate pretty well with the measurements I see here and there. As to which signatures are closer to my personal ideal, the Senn 800 with just a tad less energy in the lower treble, that's not hard to do with most of the good ones like the Grado PS-500, the DT-48A, the Shure 1840, or even the GMP 8.35D. But if the signature is different enough like the DT-1350, and add to that a tricky fit that isn't an issue with the other headphones, it's not going to be a very satisfactory report for a lot of people. Too many variables - too many things to go wrong. My interpretation of the 1350's sound just isn't as solid as with the other full-size headphones. But I have read hundreds of views on the 1350, and I think I've identified some key points where people can (if they want to!) address their issues electronically without tossing it out the window, or having to face a modification they might not be up to. I can't do it myself, since I can rarely even put together an item I buy from the store that has minimal assembly, such as bolting a chair together. Now if everyone who buys these things has an easy inexpensive in-country return available to them with no hassle and no restocking fee, that alleviates a lot of pressure right there. But that's not always the case.
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