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Post by jphoward on Mar 30, 2009 15:01:04 GMT
You could always get yourself a BluRay writer and prove that Jeff and myself are both delusional. Either that, or you are welcome to try some of your own CDs on my setup and make up your own mind. Perhaps even re-burn a couple with the BluRay writer to try yourself at home. As I said before, burning CD audio discs with a BluRay writer is expected to create observable differences. That's because CD audio is a real-time guaranteed-latency data path (and because it's readily observed that BluRay burners create different shaped pits in a CD). So there's no outstanding issues there, AFAICT. The outstanding issues are why you hear differences in: - FLAC vs uncompressed
- EAC extracted from BluRay vs EAC extracted from standard CD.
In each of these cases, the "theory" says that there can't be any difference if all the bits are working right - so finding which bit isn't working right is an interesting exercise! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2009 21:16:16 GMT
You could always get yourself a BluRay writer and prove that Jeff and myself are both delusional. Either that, or you are welcome to try some of your own CDs on my setup and make up your own mind. Perhaps even re-burn a couple with the BluRay writer to try yourself at home. As I said before, burning CD audio discs with a BluRay writer is expected to create observable differences. That's because CD audio is a real-time guaranteed-latency data path (and because it's readily observed that BluRay burners create different shaped pits in a CD). So there's no outstanding issues there, AFAICT. The outstanding issues are why you hear differences in: - FLAC vs uncompressed
- EAC extracted from BluRay vs EAC extracted from standard CD.
In each of these cases, the "theory" says that there can't be any difference if all the bits are working right - so finding which bit isn't working right is an interesting exercise! Jeremy At the time, I did not notice such problems with Monkey's Audio (.ape) Since then I have downloaded several 24/96 .flac files using a more recent version of FLAC, and have been very happy with the results, however, I am not in a position to compare these reconstituted .wav files with those of the original files before conversion to .flac. The main message that I am trying to get across , without delving into the intricacies of why, is that if members who have a BluRay writer can use it and E.A.C. to re-rip some of their best albums to the HDD, they may very well end up hearing their favourites as they have never heard them before. I enjoyed "Michelle Nicolle-The Crying Game" quite a bit more after doing this, and as for the album "Papa Doo Run Run-California Project", of which a couple of the tracks feature in my home brew compilation test CD? Well all I could say in a post was "WOW". It was already a very good recording, but to me, the improvement in many areas was quite substantial, and I just had to lay on the bed and listen to the whole album from the HDD again. Alex |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2009 5:29:53 GMT
I just finished re-ripping "Norah Jones-Come Away With Me" from the Hybrid SACD to the HDD, using the Blue Ray writer and E.A.C.
The difference is quite obvious on every track. It's like it is higher resolution.
Alex
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Post by clausdk on Mar 31, 2009 6:37:55 GMT
A thrilling read this thread is.....
But does all this means, that I now have to go out an buy a bluray burner ??
I do not even have a HDtv, how on earth do I justify this to the wife ??
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2009 6:48:29 GMT
A thrilling read this thread is..... But does all this means, that I now have to go out an buy a bluray burner ?? I do not even have a HDtv, how on earth do I justify this to the wife ?? clausdk Only if you have stored .wav files on your HDD, and want the highest possible quality. Purchases like this are hard to justify to a wife, unless you promise them something too!  SandyK P.S. Not all CDs will benefit from this course, only the well recorded ones that weren't painted by the "loudness brush" P.P.S A source of REALLY high resolution audio files for the HDD : www.referencerecordings.com/HRx1.asp |
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allenf
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Post by allenf on Mar 31, 2009 7:47:32 GMT
The next variable to eliminate would be:
Is pre-emphasis applied to these particular recordings, is the flag present on the hybrid disc, is EAC handling the flag differently depending on if and how the code is being passed by the DVD drive or Bluray drive?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2009 8:54:16 GMT
The next variable to eliminate would be: Is pre-emphasis applied to these particular recordings, is the flag present on the hybrid disc, is EAC handling the flag differently depending on if and how the code is being passed by the DVD drive or Bluray drive? Allenf E.A.C. says there is no pre-emphasis on the discs in question. My understanding is that pre-emphasis has not been in general use since the 80s. Alex |
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allenf
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Post by allenf on Mar 31, 2009 9:33:30 GMT
That's what I thought, but a google search shows that it is still in use. Interestingly, I also found out that EAC ignores a pre-emphasis flag (if present) on red-book (no idea how it deals with a hybrid) - ie the rip will be bright. However, iTunes reads the flag and de-emphasises for the rip, which is rather cool. Paging Jeremy...  |
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Post by jeffc on Mar 31, 2009 22:46:05 GMT
Hi allenf, Interesting ... and something I 'thought' was a perceive difference with the BR ripped CD tracks compared to the DVD ripped tracks (posts #122, #128). Only a quick listen though and only with XXHighEnd so when I get a sec, I'll see whether this holds true with other players like Foobah/XMPlay. Also just remembered that initial EAC rip impressions from the BR vs DVD drives, where substantial differences in SQ were noted, were made using XXHighEnd inadvertently set to engine #2, which software doubles the sample rate to 88.2kHz and consequently sounds 'richer/fuller' to my ears compared to engine #1, which from memory is bit perfect @ 44.1kHz. Still an aside from the reason why BR drive rips sound better than to DVD rips of the same CD.  cheers.. jeffc |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2009 22:58:15 GMT
jeffc
My own Google search showed that there are very few releases since the 80s that have pre-emphasis. Some of the earlier Dire Straits recordings were reported as using pre-emphasis.
At the far right side of E.A.C. there is a column which indicates whether pre-empasis is there or not.
Alex
P.S.
Dire Straits-Brothers In Arms, and Love Over Gold, do not have pre-emphasis.
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Apr 1, 2009 9:50:54 GMT
Allan Yeah, right! So explain why the software/driver handles 2 supposedly identical files ,differently? Alex P.S. You could always get yourself a BluRay writer and prove that Jeff and myself are both delusional. Either that, or you are welcome to try some of your own CDs on my setup and make up your own mind. Perhaps even re-burn a couple with the BluRay writer to try yourself at home. P.P.S Geoff B. can hear a difference too via my SC HA! And I reckon Dave M. will come back with similar answers shortly, as well. Incidentally , Dave M. took a BluRay burn of a DVD with 24/96 audio on it ,to a friend's place to show how good it sounded, and the friend's DVD player stuttered and stammered, and started smoking ! ;D Hot stuff, these BluRay discs ! Ok Alex As for software Then why do people think XXHE driver sounds better than others? All are supposedly bitperfert outputs? Allan ps I do intend to get a BluRay burner soon. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 10:07:25 GMT
Allan Yeah, right! So explain why the software/driver handles 2 supposedly identical files ,differently? Alex P.S. You could always get yourself a BluRay writer and prove that Jeff and myself are both delusional. Either that, or you are welcome to try some of your own CDs on my setup and make up your own mind. Perhaps even re-burn a couple with the BluRay writer to try yourself at home. P.P.S Geoff B. can hear a difference too via my SC HA! And I reckon Dave M. will come back with similar answers shortly, as well. Incidentally , Dave M. took a BluRay burn of a DVD with 24/96 audio on it ,to a friend's place to show how good it sounded, and the friend's DVD player stuttered and stammered, and started smoking ! ;D Hot stuff, these BluRay discs ! Ok Alex As for software Then why do people think XXHE driver sounds better than others? All are supposedly bitperfert outputs? Allan ps I do intend to get a BluRay burner soon. Allan Why not ask Jeremy that when he gets back in a few days time ? Jeremy may be a relative novice in analogue electronics, but he is up there with the best in the software area. Alex |
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Post by jeffc on Apr 1, 2009 10:16:59 GMT
Spirit, Hadn't forgotten this just ran out of steam the other night A/Bing the same 3 tracks ripped via the 3 combinations over and over. Anyways, impressions with Foobah pretty much the same as using XXHighEnd. Foobah BTW, with ASIO4All, gives great SQ via my USB DAC. Something about the BR ripped .WAVs that just makes them sound more highly polished, greater attack on plucked guitar, maybe HF extension/resolution is better, but I don't know. Whatever, Alex's disease seems real, drugs not required, yet.  cheers..jeffc |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2009 10:16:10 GMT
Now, for something to REALLY piss some of you off !
Just for an exercise, I revisited .FLAC. ;D Using FLAC 1.7.1 Etree edition, I took the ripped via BluRay file from the Blu-spec CD,track 17 -("Marvin Gay-Sexual Healing") , "Feel the Difference of the Blu-spec CD-Rock Selection, converted it to .FLAC, then reconverted it to .WAV again. Surprise,surprise, but it now doesn't sound much (if any) better than the normal CD version !  SandyK X-Fi Xtreme Music with OPA2134 - SPDIF-modded X-DAC V3 with dual reg JLH PSU - SC HA with JLH.( Played with Creative Media Source Player)
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Post by Spirit on Apr 2, 2009 10:30:26 GMT
Sorry Jeff, when I say abx, I mean load the two wav's into the foobar playlist, highlight them, r-click, utils, abx two tracks, and run through about 10 iterations. Alternatively, take the md5 hash of the two files, with a tool like www.whitsoftdev.com/files/md5w.zip(testing two different things of course - I'm interested in both  ) Cheers, Phil |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2009 11:17:47 GMT
Now, for something to REALLY piss some of you off !
Just for an exercise, I revisited .FLAC. ;D Using FLAC 1.7.1 Etree edition, I took the ripped via BluRay file from the Blu-spec CD,track 17 -("Marvin Gay-Sexual Healing") , "Feel the Difference of the Blu-spec CD-Rock Selection, converted it to .FLAC, then reconverted it to .WAV again. Surprise,surprise, but it now doesn't sound much (if any) better than the normal CD version ! SandyK X-Fi Xtreme Music with OPA2134 - SPDIF-modded X-DAC V3 with dual reg JLH PSU - SC HA with JLH.( Played with Creative Media Source Player) I just tried the same using Monkey's Audio. (.ape) As I have stated previously, Monkey's Audio does seem to do a better job than FLAC, however, the original file is still superior, as the reconverted file has lost some of it's "sparkle" and soundstage. SandyK |
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Post by cyteen on Apr 2, 2009 11:41:32 GMT
I'd also like to know the results of either a bdiff or md5sum of the original wav file and the post encoded/de-encoded wav.
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Spirit
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Post by Spirit on Apr 2, 2009 11:44:20 GMT
Both the pre and post files would be great...
Also the wavs from the rips of the same cd from the bluray drive, and a normal dvd drive...
[md5sums thereof of course]
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2009 12:16:22 GMT
Both the pre and post files would be great... Also the wavs from the rips of the same cd from the bluray drive, and a normal dvd drive... [md5sums thereof of course] cyteen and spirit Perhaps jeffc, or another member with a Blu Ray writer (there are now several) would be willing to humour/assist the PC experts in our midst ? After > 12 months of trying to get these messages across, both here, and in DIYAudio , and copping lots of FLAC (Pun intended!) along the way in both forums, I am a little weary of the whole exercise. (I'm also too old,and not enough patience ?  ) TBH, I think the person with the best chance of solving these mysteries, is our resident software expert from Victoria, who has a proven track record in areas such as this. SandyK |
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Post by Spirit on Apr 2, 2009 12:31:39 GMT
I appreciate your tiredness... Agree with everything you've said... Thus asking Jeff for the checksums When they're cheaper, I'll get one... ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2009 12:52:15 GMT
I appreciate your tiredness... Agree with everything you've said... Thus asking Jeff for the checksums When they're cheaper, I'll get one... ;D Phil Allan hopes to get one shortly as well, and he is also an I.T. person. TG also has a writer, but I think he is rather busy at the moment. Don't forget that we are now in almost uncharted waters, and there will be many people who would dispute these findings. Previously, I was able to hear the differences, mainly because of my Class A amplification, but these days many more members have higher resolution playback facilities. One thing for sure, is that I would love to be able to compare the bit for bit copies of the original studio recordings now available on DVDs from Reference Recordings,(176.4kHz 24 bit) with the 24/96 downloadable .flac. versions of the same material. If only they weren't so damn expensive !  Alex |
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Post by cyteen on Apr 2, 2009 14:56:25 GMT
SandyK, Thats fair enough, and for anyone that has the hardware and would like to do the test on a computer running the ms windows os: for md5sum unxutils.sourceforge.net/UnxUtils.zipthen in a terminal window (cmd.exe) md5sum -b <first file> md5sum -b <second file> |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2009 9:59:52 GMT
cyteen and spirit Attached is a copy of reports generated by ExactFile 1.0.0.15 BETA for the Sony Blu-spec disc,and also the normal CD version. Both files were ripped using a BluRay writer and E.A.C. As I stated previously, there are quite audible differences, and let's face it, Sony wouldn't go to all this trouble if there weren't . Alex CD VERSION. ; Checksums generated by ExactFile 1.0.0.15 ; www.exactfile.com; 3/04/2009 8:56:27 PM e995b3b66693a0261bff3db248eb02b9 *Track01.wav 0d2770d07f5509c862522f5980e98050 *Track02.wav f8f76a28cb2952429dfa01a0936d08d7 *Track03.wav 474df609920783f713acf668a78a69a5 *Track04.wav 6ea2bc30cf42b2d74cc43e34277f7514 *Track05.wav aafca38d49cbe7786b1a339f8054db9d *Track06.wav 5306e6f23de8f19f0410682942fd5212 *Track07.wav 61f1e2e3808a957bb85768cf058b3b4f *Track08.wav 07c9e9a0ab95031a71ebca76e0f4346d *Track09.wav 0bd6fac2c6115f842f4d372d15164550 *Track10.wav 862c1def4ba09ffa26cb65c96c4f6974 *Track11.wav f6601d3375a4526e0d4dd57a50aada3a *Track12.wav 4695a6e26370db32e9be839030e51fe3 *Track13.wav 61b69212e44e71b82f36c1fe788927e3 *Track14.wav d1a9bc6f68454de661ff79315e957312 *Track15.wav 294b5494523e40a9262ba70f1eb60e34 *Track16.wav 8cc4c5e377c3446511a6b8f59a051769 *Track17.wav 3b3055dd88e233f5484333017492a506 *Unknown Artist - Unknown Title.log a959242f8dfdebdfea3956afb3655510 *Unknown Title.log ; 21 files hashed. BD VERSION ; Checksums generated by ExactFile 1.0.0.15 ; www.exactfile.com; 3/04/2009 8:59:07 PM c95df0ab16a91cde791096763a866e52 *Blu spec CD- front cover- Rock.jpg a22a6131df5894098f3975898ea0894c *Blu spec CD- inner cover- Rock.jpg ba724bad744bc0711f956b9162df045c *EXACT FILE REPORT.txt e995b3b66693a0261bff3db248eb02b9 *Track01.wav 0d2770d07f5509c862522f5980e98050 *Track02.wav f8f76a28cb2952429dfa01a0936d08d7 *Track03.wav 474df609920783f713acf668a78a69a5 *Track04.wav 6ea2bc30cf42b2d74cc43e34277f7514 *Track05.wav aafca38d49cbe7786b1a339f8054db9d *Track06.wav 5306e6f23de8f19f0410682942fd5212 *Track07.wav 61f1e2e3808a957bb85768cf058b3b4f *Track08.wav 07c9e9a0ab95031a71ebca76e0f4346d *Track09.wav 0bd6fac2c6115f842f4d372d15164550 *Track10.wav 862c1def4ba09ffa26cb65c96c4f6974 *Track11.wav f6601d3375a4526e0d4dd57a50aada3a *Track12.wav 4695a6e26370db32e9be839030e51fe3 *Track13.wav 61b69212e44e71b82f36c1fe788927e3 *Track14.wav d1a9bc6f68454de661ff79315e957312 *Track15.wav 294b5494523e40a9262ba70f1eb60e34 *Track16.wav 8cc4c5e377c3446511a6b8f59a051769 *Track17.wav d63e7081fac5e19ae77caf64696075f3 *Unknown Artist - Unknown Title.log ; 21 files hashed. |
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Apr 3, 2009 13:02:35 GMT
cyteen and spirit Attached is a copy of reports generated by ExactFile 1.0.0.15 BETA for the Sony Blu-spec disc,and also the normal CD version. Both files were ripped using a BluRay writer and E.A.C. As I stated previously, there are quite audible differences, and let's face it, Sony wouldn't go to all this trouble if there weren't . Alex CD VERSION. ; Checksums generated by ExactFile 1.0.0.15 ; www.exactfile.com; 3/04/2009 8:56:27 PM e995b3b66693a0261bff3db248eb02b9 *Track01.wav 0d2770d07f5509c862522f5980e98050 *Track02.wav f8f76a28cb2952429dfa01a0936d08d7 *Track03.wav 474df609920783f713acf668a78a69a5 *Track04.wav 6ea2bc30cf42b2d74cc43e34277f7514 *Track05.wav aafca38d49cbe7786b1a339f8054db9d *Track06.wav 5306e6f23de8f19f0410682942fd5212 *Track07.wav 61f1e2e3808a957bb85768cf058b3b4f *Track08.wav 07c9e9a0ab95031a71ebca76e0f4346d *Track09.wav 0bd6fac2c6115f842f4d372d15164550 *Track10.wav 862c1def4ba09ffa26cb65c96c4f6974 *Track11.wav f6601d3375a4526e0d4dd57a50aada3a *Track12.wav 4695a6e26370db32e9be839030e51fe3 *Track13.wav 61b69212e44e71b82f36c1fe788927e3 *Track14.wav d1a9bc6f68454de661ff79315e957312 *Track15.wav 294b5494523e40a9262ba70f1eb60e34 *Track16.wav 8cc4c5e377c3446511a6b8f59a051769 *Track17.wav 3b3055dd88e233f5484333017492a506 *Unknown Artist - Unknown Title.log a959242f8dfdebdfea3956afb3655510 *Unknown Title.log ; 21 files hashed. BD VERSION ; Checksums generated by ExactFile 1.0.0.15 ; www.exactfile.com; 3/04/2009 8:59:07 PM c95df0ab16a91cde791096763a866e52 *Blu spec CD- front cover- Rock.jpg a22a6131df5894098f3975898ea0894c *Blu spec CD- inner cover- Rock.jpg ba724bad744bc0711f956b9162df045c *EXACT FILE REPORT.txt e995b3b66693a0261bff3db248eb02b9 *Track01.wav 0d2770d07f5509c862522f5980e98050 *Track02.wav f8f76a28cb2952429dfa01a0936d08d7 *Track03.wav 474df609920783f713acf668a78a69a5 *Track04.wav 6ea2bc30cf42b2d74cc43e34277f7514 *Track05.wav aafca38d49cbe7786b1a339f8054db9d *Track06.wav 5306e6f23de8f19f0410682942fd5212 *Track07.wav 61f1e2e3808a957bb85768cf058b3b4f *Track08.wav 07c9e9a0ab95031a71ebca76e0f4346d *Track09.wav 0bd6fac2c6115f842f4d372d15164550 *Track10.wav 862c1def4ba09ffa26cb65c96c4f6974 *Track11.wav f6601d3375a4526e0d4dd57a50aada3a *Track12.wav 4695a6e26370db32e9be839030e51fe3 *Track13.wav 61b69212e44e71b82f36c1fe788927e3 *Track14.wav d1a9bc6f68454de661ff79315e957312 *Track15.wav 294b5494523e40a9262ba70f1eb60e34 *Track16.wav 8cc4c5e377c3446511a6b8f59a051769 *Track17.wav d63e7081fac5e19ae77caf64696075f3 *Unknown Artist - Unknown Title.log ; 21 files hashed. Your numbers rearranged "e995b3b66693a0261bff3db248eb02b9 *Track01.wav CD VERSION e995b3b66693a0261bff3db248eb02b9 *Track01.wav BD VERSION 0d2770d07f5509c862522f5980e98050 *Track02.wav CD VERSION 0d2770d07f5509c862522f5980e98050 *Track02.wav BD VERSION f8f76a28cb2952429dfa01a0936d08d7 *Track03.wav CD VERSION f8f76a28cb2952429dfa01a0936d08d7 *Track03.wav BD VERSION 474df609920783f713acf668a78a69a5 *Track04.wav CD VERSION 474df609920783f713acf668a78a69a5 *Track04.wav BD VERSION 6ea2bc30cf42b2d74cc43e34277f7514 *Track05.wav CD VERSION 6ea2bc30cf42b2d74cc43e34277f7514 *Track05.wav BD VERSION aafca38d49cbe7786b1a339f8054db9d *Track06.wav CD VERSION aafca38d49cbe7786b1a339f8054db9d *Track06.wav BD VERSION 5306e6f23de8f19f0410682942fd5212 *Track07.wav CD VERSION 5306e6f23de8f19f0410682942fd5212 *Track07.wav BD VERSION 61f1e2e3808a957bb85768cf058b3b4f *Track08.wav CD VERSION 61f1e2e3808a957bb85768cf058b3b4f *Track08.wav BD VERSION 07c9e9a0ab95031a71ebca76e0f4346d *Track09.wav CD VERSION 07c9e9a0ab95031a71ebca76e0f4346d *Track09.wav BD VERSION 0bd6fac2c6115f842f4d372d15164550 *Track10.wav CD VERSION 0bd6fac2c6115f842f4d372d15164550 *Track10.wav BD VERSION 862c1def4ba09ffa26cb65c96c4f6974 *Track11.wav CD VERSION 862c1def4ba09ffa26cb65c96c4f6974 *Track11.wav BD VERSION f6601d3375a4526e0d4dd57a50aada3a *Track12.wav CD VERSION f6601d3375a4526e0d4dd57a50aada3a *Track12.wav BD VERSION 4695a6e26370db32e9be839030e51fe3 *Track13.wav CD VERSION 4695a6e26370db32e9be839030e51fe3 *Track13.wav BD VERSION 61b69212e44e71b82f36c1fe788927e3 *Track14.wav CD VERSION 61b69212e44e71b82f36c1fe788927e3 *Track14.wav BD VERSION d1a9bc6f68454de661ff79315e957312 *Track15.wav CD VERSION d1a9bc6f68454de661ff79315e957312 *Track15.wav BD VERSION 294b5494523e40a9262ba70f1eb60e34 *Track16.wav CD VERSION 294b5494523e40a9262ba70f1eb60e34 *Track16.wav BD VERSION 8cc4c5e377c3446511a6b8f59a051769 *Track17.wav CD VERSION 8cc4c5e377c3446511a6b8f59a051769 *Track17.wav BD VERSION" Alex I like it when the maths don't add up. or there something they're missing in the calc's allan The question is...... what? |
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allenf
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Post by allenf on Apr 3, 2009 13:15:04 GMT
I pasted them into Excel - the checksums are identical.
The only way to prove the difference now is a proper DBT.
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