Burning CD-R with a BluRay Burner

[XTRProf]

Ok, I will leave this thread and never comes back.

[Deleted]

Mar 24, 2009 23:19:01 GMT XTRProf said:

Ok, I will leave this thread and never comes back.

Dummy spit ?
You are more than welcome to contribute, if you have anything to contribute on the subject matter of the thread,or CD/DVD burning in general.

[Deleted]

EAC using BluRay Writer


EAC using a BluRay writer.
Just to satisfy myself once more, I just extracted "I Get Around" from Papa Doo RunRun, and compared it with the previously extracted copy using EAC with a Pioneer SATA writer, that showed as no errors during extraction.
Looks like I need to redo all my previously extracted copies !!!

SandyK

UPDATE.
After hearing this track, I decided to re-rip the whole "Papa Doo Run Run-California Project" album using the LG BluRay writer,again using E.A.C.
I then laid down and relaxed while playing back the entire album using Creative Media Source Player into the SC HA with JLH.
All I can say is WOW!

[Spirit]

Sorry just to confirm Alex,
You're getting better sounding results having ripped a standard redbook CD, with your Bluray burner, than with the Pioneer dvd burner?

And they both have no errors/are ok according to accuraterip?

[Deleted]

Mar 29, 2009 5:30:36 GMT Spirit said:

Sorry just to confirm Alex,
You're getting better sounding results having ripped a standard redbook CD, with your Bluray burner, than with the Pioneer dvd burner?

And they both have no errors/are ok according to accuraterip?

Phil
Yes. That is exactly what I am saying,and don't forget that so far, we haven't been able to identify the reasons for the very audible differences between the Blue-spec discs and standard discs from the same master either. They also have identical file sizes and check sums.
Alex

[Deleted]

Alex
I missed the point here. I thought it was the more accurate burn back to quality CDR that was the good bit. Is it both?

Syd

[Deleted]

Mar 29, 2009 9:40:19 GMT @juke said:

Alex
I missed the point here. I thought it was the more accurate burn back to quality CDR that was the good bit. Is it both?

Syd

Syd
It would certainly appear to be both ways. This may also shed some light on why "lossless" files don't always sound as good as the original too ?
I hope to have input soon from another friend in Sydney who now has a BluRay writer, and was going to audibly compare his original EAC files with new ones via his BluRay writer and EAC.
He has already said that 24/96 files on DVD sound better too, after burning with a BluRay writer.
EAC ain't necessarily so ??
Alex

[jphoward]

Mar 29, 2009 9:59:38 GMT @sandyk said:

EAC ain't necessarily so ??

That wouldn't appear to be the issue, since you're getting the same checksums for each file. Something else must be going on... Any chance you could send me a couple of files that have the same checksum, but sound different? I'd like to analyse them.

[Deleted]

Mar 29, 2009 10:31:33 GMT jphoward said:

Mar 29, 2009 9:59:38 GMT @sandyk said:

EAC ain't necessarily so ??

That wouldn't appear to be the issue, since you're getting the same checksums for each file. Something else must be going on... Any chance you could send me a couple of files that have the same checksum, but sound different? I'd like to analyse them.

Jeremy
The "Feel the Difference of the Blu-spec CD -Rock selection." available from CD Japan, and made by Sony, has 2 CDs from the same master. One is a normal CD, and the other is a Blu-spec CD made from a stamper burned by Blue Laser. They both have identical file sizes,and check sums. So far I have been unable to pinpoint any differences using Sound Forge 9's various tools.
However, the audible difference is easy to pick, it's like the Blu-spec disc is higher resolution, and with an improved soundstage and voice localisation. Rather like wider channel separation.
It may also be using a different disc formulation.

Alex

[jphoward]

Alex, that's a completely different issue (if I'm understanding correctly what you're saying). CD-audio discs, when played back directly from a CD player, need to use real-time guaranteed-latency protocols and transports, which means that differences in the manufacturing of the medium can result in differences in the output. The bits on the disc are not necessarily the bits that get to your DAC!

However, once a file is on a computer, and is transferred using non-real-time guaranteed-delivery transports and protocols, the end-point of each transfer is guaranteed to have the exact same file (unless an error is returned, in which case the end-point will have no file at all, and the error will be flagged to the OS).

Sometimes it's a bit subtle as to whether you're using a guaranteed-delivery protocol or not - for instance, over the internet you could be using TCP (guaranteed delivery) or UDP (not guaranteed delivery - that's why it's used for streaming protocols).

You can add delivery guarantees to a protocol/transport that doesn't have them, by adding your own error checking and retry mechanisms - this is basically what EAC does in detecting and correcting jitter.

Once you've got two files on your PC with the same checksum (assuming that you're using a decent hashing algorithm), you are guaranteed that they really are identical. That's why I'm saying that there must be something else going on here that's causing the difference.

[insomniac]

Mar 17, 2009 0:35:41 GMT mrarroyo said:

Alex, you have a problem with red?

Hey Miguel...

I never knew you wore glasses

[Deleted]

Mar 29, 2009 14:23:42 GMT mrarroyo said:

Alex, as I understand it you are taking an store bought cd and copying it via your bluray recorder. Are saying the copy made with the bluray recorder is better sounding than the original store bought cd?

Miguel.
I am saying that although all the information is there on the store bought CD, it isn't being taken full advantage of because of the accuracy of the stamper used and the copy to the CD. The BluRay writers,because of their Blue laser's shorter wavelength, and most likely a better optical block also, are more accurately able to read and transfer this existing information to the HDD. If your CD player was a $20,000 unit, perhaps the audible gap would be much closer ?
Alex

[Deleted]

Once you've got two files on your PC with the same checksum (assuming that you're using a decent hashing algorithm), you are guaranteed that they really are identical. That's why I'm saying that there must be something else going on here that's causing the difference.

jeremy
Attached are the EAC reports from the normal CD version, and the Blu-spec version CD.
Obviously, they do sound different, or Sony would not have gone to all the trouble to include both discs of the same content.

Normal CD version.


Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 4 from 23. January 2008

EAC extraction logfile from 12. March 2009, 10:19

Unknown Artist / Unknown Title

Used drive : HL-DT-STBD-RE GGW-H20L Adapter: 6 ID: 0

Read mode : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache : Yes
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Read offset correction : 667
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations : No
Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling : Not detected, thus appended to previous track

Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
Sample format : 44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo


TOC of the extracted CD

Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
---------------------------------------------------------
1 | 0:00.00 | 6:11.52 | 0 | 27876
2 | 6:11.52 | 2:34.00 | 27877 | 39426
3 | 8:45.52 | 4:21.01 | 39427 | 59002
4 | 13:06.53 | 4:09.64 | 59003 | 77741
5 | 17:16.42 | 5:55.16 | 77742 | 104382
6 | 23:11.58 | 3:07.39 | 104383 | 118446
7 | 26:19.22 | 3:52.48 | 118447 | 135894
8 | 30:11.70 | 4:15.24 | 135895 | 155043
9 | 34:27.19 | 4:49.02 | 155044 | 176720
10 | 39:16.21 | 3:28.69 | 176721 | 192389
11 | 42:45.15 | 3:51.63 | 192390 | 209777
12 | 46:37.03 | 3:42.41 | 209778 | 226468
13 | 50:19.44 | 4:51.74 | 226469 | 248367
14 | 55:11.43 | 3:52.39 | 248368 | 265806
15 | 59:04.07 | 3:22.26 | 265807 | 280982
16 | 62:26.33 | 4:58.56 | 280983 | 303388
17 | 67:25.14 | 4:00.19 | 303389 | 321407


Track 1

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track01.wav

Peak level 93.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 281CA5AC
Copy CRC 281CA5AC
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 2

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track02.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC FE9FEF1C
Copy CRC FE9FEF1C
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 3

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track03.wav

Peak level 82.7 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Test CRC 300F054F
Copy CRC 300F054F
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 4

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track04.wav

Peak level 96.5 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 988D97E8
Copy CRC 988D97E8
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 5

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track05.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 17369A9A
Copy CRC 17369A9A
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 6

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track06.wav

Peak level 94.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 6635DEE2
Copy CRC 6635DEE2
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 7

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track07.wav

Peak level 97.9 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 2A4533E4
Copy CRC 2A4533E4
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 8

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track08.wav

Peak level 77.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC C2133030
Copy CRC C2133030
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 9

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track09.wav

Peak level 85.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC B2A76E79
Copy CRC B2A76E79
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 10

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track10.wav

Peak level 83.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 79E62B53
Copy CRC 79E62B53
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 11

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track11.wav

Peak level 99.9 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC CCB049B8
Copy CRC CCB049B8
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 12

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track12.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 874F6163
Copy CRC 874F6163
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 13

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track13.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 2CFB1E10
Copy CRC 2CFB1E10
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 14

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track14.wav

Peak level 85.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 0AAC9AC1
Copy CRC 0AAC9AC1
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 15

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track15.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 3F6A9DFC
Copy CRC 3F6A9DFC
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 16

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track16.wav

Peak level 96.5 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC E520840C
Copy CRC E520840C
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 17

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-spec CD-Rock CD version LG BD\Track17.wav

Peak level 94.3 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 35179C47
Copy CRC 35179C47
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK


None of the tracks are present in the AccurateRip database

No errors occurred

End of status report



Blu-spec version.

Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 4 from 23. January 2008

EAC extraction logfile from 10. March 2009, 22:17

Unknown Artist / Unknown Title

Used drive : HL-DT-STBD-RE GGW-H20L Adapter: 6 ID: 0

Read mode : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache : Yes
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Read offset correction : 667
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations : No
Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling : Not detected, thus appended to previous track

Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
Sample format : 44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo


TOC of the extracted CD

Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
---------------------------------------------------------
1 | 0:00.00 | 6:11.52 | 0 | 27876
2 | 6:11.52 | 2:34.00 | 27877 | 39426
3 | 8:45.52 | 4:21.01 | 39427 | 59002
4 | 13:06.53 | 4:09.64 | 59003 | 77741
5 | 17:16.42 | 5:55.16 | 77742 | 104382
6 | 23:11.58 | 3:07.39 | 104383 | 118446
7 | 26:19.22 | 3:52.48 | 118447 | 135894
8 | 30:11.70 | 4:15.24 | 135895 | 155043
9 | 34:27.19 | 4:49.02 | 155044 | 176720
10 | 39:16.21 | 3:28.69 | 176721 | 192389
11 | 42:45.15 | 3:51.63 | 192390 | 209777
12 | 46:37.03 | 3:42.41 | 209778 | 226468
13 | 50:19.44 | 4:51.74 | 226469 | 248367
14 | 55:11.43 | 3:52.39 | 248368 | 265806
15 | 59:04.07 | 3:22.26 | 265807 | 280982
16 | 62:26.33 | 4:58.56 | 280983 | 303388
17 | 67:25.14 | 4:00.19 | 303389 | 321407


Track 1

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track01.wav

Peak level 93.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 281CA5AC
Copy CRC 281CA5AC
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 2

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track02.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC FE9FEF1C
Copy CRC FE9FEF1C
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 3

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track03.wav

Peak level 82.7 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Test CRC 300F054F
Copy CRC 300F054F
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 4

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track04.wav

Peak level 96.5 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 988D97E8
Copy CRC 988D97E8
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 5

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track05.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 17369A9A
Copy CRC 17369A9A
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 6

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track06.wav

Peak level 94.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 6635DEE2
Copy CRC 6635DEE2
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 7

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track07.wav

Peak level 97.9 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 2A4533E4
Copy CRC 2A4533E4
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 8

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track08.wav

Peak level 77.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC C2133030
Copy CRC C2133030
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 9

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track09.wav

Peak level 85.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC B2A76E79
Copy CRC B2A76E79
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 10

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track10.wav

Peak level 83.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 79E62B53
Copy CRC 79E62B53
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 11

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track11.wav

Peak level 99.9 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC CCB049B8
Copy CRC CCB049B8
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 12

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track12.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 874F6163
Copy CRC 874F6163
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 13

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track13.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 2CFB1E10
Copy CRC 2CFB1E10
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 14

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track14.wav

Peak level 85.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 0AAC9AC1
Copy CRC 0AAC9AC1
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 15

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track15.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 3F6A9DFC
Copy CRC 3F6A9DFC
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 16

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track16.wav

Peak level 96.5 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC E520840C
Copy CRC E520840C
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK

Track 17

Filename G:\AUDIO\Blu-Spec CD-Rock (BD version)\Track17.wav

Peak level 94.3 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 35179C47
Copy CRC 35179C47
Track not present in AccurateRip database
Copy OK


None of the tracks are present in the AccurateRip database

No errors occurred

End of status report

[jeffc]

Ok, homework to confirm Alex does indeed have bats ears ;D

1. EAC transfer CD track to HD using DVD writer in laptop
2. EAC transfer CD track to HD using external BR writer
3. EAC transfer CD track burned to CD-R using BR writer to HD again using BL writer

2 and 3 should sound better than 1.
2 and 3 no difference, if I've read that correctly.

This will be interesting.

cheers.. jeffc

[Deleted]

Mar 30, 2009 7:21:03 GMT jeffc said:

Ok, homework to confirm Alex does indeed have bats ears ;D

1. EAC transfer CD track to HD using DVD writer in laptop
2. EAC transfer CD track to HD using external BL writer
3. EAC transfer CD track burned to CD-R using BL writer to HD again using BL writer

2 and 3 should sound better than 1.
2 and 3 no difference, if I've read that correctly.

This will be interesting.

cheers.. jeffc

jeff
I would not expect 2 and 3 to sound identical. I would still expect 2 to sound better than 3,but not that much in it.
A progress report from a friend. :
RE BR fidelity tests.
>
> I burnt an EAC master of a Dave Grusin CD on the weekend and compared it with the original. It's a CD I bought only last week so I'm not yet highly familiar with it. The quality of the CD is very good but the soundstage depth and width is nothing special and it sounds a tad artificial in parts. Played back in the Marantz the BR copy seemed to be very close to the original CD in all respects. However when played through the Pioneer and the XDAC I felt there might be more resolution and precision and it seemed easier to differentiate instruments during complex passages.
> The CDR was only a stock standard TDK so I will need to redo the tests with better CDR's and check again on the Marantz.
>
> As far as the EAC ripping goes I haven't as yet tried to compare a new rip with an old one but I'll do that this week.
> One thing I have noticed with all EAC BR rips is that there are timimg errors being indicated in the log summaries. On some discs there are lots of them. I never saw any errors of this nature with the old DVD burner but they may or may not actually mean anything. I will install the latest EAC tonight as well as run their driver detective exe and see if that fixes the problem.
>
> Dave

The Marantz referred to is an expensive SA11.
I mentioned elsewhere that the gap would be much closer with expensive CD players. I didn't have timing errors to any extent with my BluRay writer. I had far more timing errors with my old Pioneer writer. My friend has not had his Writers evaluated by the EAC website yet.
Alex

[jphoward]

Alex, rather than just using the simple CRC, pick a track where you're sure you can hear difference, and run a proper hash function over it (e.g. MD5 or SHA1). Or, use a binary diff tool to check for differences. If the two are the same, then they're definitely the exact same file, and if you get them to your DAC via a reliable channel (i.e. not after burning them to a CD audio disc!) you should find that they sound exactly the same.

If you don't find that, then you would need to design a carefully controlled experiment to find the source of the difference - e.g. have a friend use identical equipment and processing (other than Blue Ray vs standard CD) to extract the 2 copies of a track using EAC, confirm they have the same MD5 or SHA1, and then make 10 copies of each with random file-names. Then you can listen to the 20 tracks (which are in a completely random order), without your friend present, and write down which files you think are from blue ray, and which from a standard CD.

If you're interested in trying this, I could easily write a little program which creates the random track list and copies.

[Deleted]

Mar 30, 2009 8:57:12 GMT jphoward said:

Alex, rather than just using the simple CRC, pick a track where you're sure you can hear difference, and run a proper hash function over it (e.g. MD5 or SHA1). Or, use a binary diff tool to check for differences. If the two are the same, then they're definitely the exact same file, and if you get them to your DAC via a reliable channel (i.e. not after burning them to a CD audio disc!) you should find that they sound exactly the same.

If you don't find that, then you would need to design a carefully controlled experiment to find the source of the difference - e.g. have a friend use identical equipment and processing (other than Blue Ray vs standard CD) to extract the 2 copies of a track using EAC, confirm they have the same MD5 or SHA1, and then make 10 copies of each with random file-names. Then you can listen to the 20 tracks (which are in a completely random order), without your friend present, and write down which files you think are from blue ray, and which from a standard CD.

If you're interested in trying this, I could easily write a little program which creates the random track list and copies.

Jeremy
Many less recent members will remember that I have previously posted about being able to hear the difference between .wav files converted to .flac, reconverted to .wav and then burned to a CD-R of the same brand at the same speed etc. and being able to easily pick the difference within 10 seconds or so via my heavily modified Class A amplifier and preamplifier, and a friend also able to hear the difference. This kind of subject has been thrashed to death already, including trying comparison programs. I would have hoped by now, that given my track record with the SC HA with JLH, and also similar Class A amp/preamp in the U.K. , that my credibility would not be under question all the time.
It is worth noting that several other RG members have since purchased the same LG BluRay writer, and some of my claims have already been verified.
I am aware of your programming abilities, but TBH, I can think of other things I would rather be doing, audio wise, than getting into another protracted debate about why I can't possibly hear these things. Several Sydney members know me quite well, and have heard some of my gear as well, and I doubt that they disbelieve me when I say I can hear these differences.
BTW, I have sent our esteemed colleague from the Sunshine State, a BluRay copy of one of his favourite CDs. I just hope that his modified SC HA is up to the task of highlighting some of the differences ! (only kidding R.K.D)

Alex

[jeffc]

Alex,

Can report that if your ears are faulty, so are mine.

Not a lot of care taken in the comparison but EAC .WAV file recording reports were identical.

Used 3 very well produced Harry Manx tracks initially recorded on a black CD-R using a DVD writer and from this to another black CD-R using the LG BR writer. The latter disk sounds far better played via my cheapo DAC / T-amp / OB speaker system. The tracks have fantastic guitar work.

Comparison used my Dell Lattitude D630 laptop, win XP, XXHighEnd 0.9u-14a demo (engines 1 and 2 tested), USB out to my Trends UD10 USB DAC (headphone out fed directly from the BB PCM2704 DAC chip via Elna Silmic caps - great sound for a non-amp with sensitive headphones) powered by a 4.8V NiMH 3700mAh model race car battery pack. Modded Alessandro MS1 phones used.

Verdict swapping between files was

BR-BR > CD-BR >>> CD-DVD

Not much between the BR written to HD from the BR and CD disks but BR a little better maybe and both these more highly polished, alive, dimensional, sound stage expanded etc than the DVD written CD files. SQ differences a bit like brand new guitar strings being played compared to week old and month old strings, attack dulled and tone smoothed with age.

Have no idea of the scientific reason for this but its not a subtle, maybe/maybe not, effect. Hopefully others will confirm this.

Looks like my HD music library now needs updating too.

cheers.. jeffc

[Deleted]

Jeff
Thanks for confirming that I am not imagining these things.
TBH, I am not sure that even Sony knows the complete answers as to why. So far, their explanations just seem to mention less read errors.Obviously, there is much more to it than that. Careful though, or the very talented software expert from Victoria will rope you into a fact finding mission !

I STILL reckon that E.A.C. aint necessarily E.A.C.
and for that matter, "Lossless" aint necessarily lossless.

P.S.
I hope you did double blind controlled tests ? ;D

Looks like my HD music library now needs updating too.

Perhaps we should try some of those DVDs from Chesky with the High res.files too ? You know the ones, the ones that are direct copies ,and NOT "lossless" versions ?

Alex

[pagan]

Or Jeff and Alex are using the same brand of battery in their hearing aids

allan

Excuse me while I run away and hide

[pagan]

I'm not judging your abilities or what your hearing but there has to be a reason.

It may be down to a software/driver issue yet.

[Spirit]

Jeff I don't suppose you could do an ABX with foobar200?
Between the two tracks... .wav from the bluray drive, and .wav from the dvd drive...

[Deleted]

It may be down to a software/driver issue yet.

Allan
Yeah, right! So explain why the software/driver handles 2 supposedly identical files ,differently?
Alex

P.S.
You could always get yourself a BluRay writer and prove that Jeff and myself are both delusional. Either that, or you are welcome to try some of your own CDs on my setup and make up your own mind. Perhaps even re-burn a couple with the BluRay writer to try yourself at home.

P.P.S
Geoff B. can hear a difference too via my SC HA! And I reckon Dave M. will come back with similar answers shortly, as well.
Incidentally , Dave M. took a BluRay burn of a DVD with 24/96 audio on it ,to a friend's place to show how good it sounded, and the friend's DVD player stuttered and stammered, and started smoking ! ;D Hot stuff, these BluRay discs !

[jeffc]

double blind controlled tests

Get real, I'm a scientist that needs to publish

Never want to spoil a good story will too much unequivocal data.

Comments about the guitar string age still hold using my modded Koss KSC75s which are a little brighter and more hyper detailed compared to the MS1s. With these the CD-DVD written HD files seem a little richer in lower mids than the somewhat starker/brighter BR-BR and CD-BR written files.

Interesting, certainly different listening experiences with these phones with 'better' being harder to define. More test ears, minus hearing aids ;D and phones required for a consensus opinion.

Missed a few posts here and a bit late for any more playing about with this tonight.

cheers.. jeffc

[jphoward]

Mar 30, 2009 12:38:14 GMT pagan said:

I'm not judging your abilities or what your hearing but there has to be a reason.

Yes that's all I was trying to suggest - sorry if I offended Alex.

I have 30 years experience in programming (and 20 in digital signal processing in particular), and have implemented many compression algorithms and tests. I've written tests which compress and uncompress data millions of times, including adding and removing random perturbations on each pass. I have never heard of a lossless compression algorithm which can change the data in any way.

MD5 and SHA1 hashes, or a binary diff, would confirm with certainty whether EAC really is correctly getting identical files each time. The CRC "should" do that already, but CRC isn't perfect, and EAC's implementation may not be exactly right.

So Alex, my curiosity here, and my offer of help, is purely to find the source of the differences you are hearing - not to question the competence of your hearing! Once again, I am extremely sorry if I offended you in any way. Possible sources of difference include the presence of a real-time guaranteed-latency path somewhere in your process, a faulty CRC checksum procedure in EAC, a buggy FLAC decompression implementation, or probably a bunch of other things I can't think of right now...