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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2012 16:53:30 GMT
Wow Shaun, looks terrific. I wonder if anyone at ESS could have ever imagined their baby chip would end up in such a high end implementation...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2013 16:42:42 GMT
Wow Shaun, looks terrific. I wonder if anyone at ESS could have ever imagined their baby chip would end up in such a high end implementation... Hi Javier sorry i've missed this one but after a longer listening Will's 9023 with Filter buffer is just sounding superb. It just amazes me how good the 9023 can sound for so little £$ and with the buffer added it’s an even better sweeter and punchier sound. overkill errrr maybe but with the Tent Clock and Buffer it's just much better IMHO. way beyound the cost of the build Happy new year to you take care
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2013 20:18:08 GMT
Hi Shaun, How much was the buffer in the end, I saw a preliminary price but no confirmation. Could you sum up what you currently have running, how it's connected up etc. Total morons guide in Lego-stylee please
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2013 23:10:16 GMT
Hi All Here’s my ‘’bloody hell it’s hot in here’’ build of Wills PK. One linear 5.25V feeding the Teleporter. One 5.25 feeding the Trident PSU for the clock. One Salas 3.6v 120mA on the DAC chip. One + and – 12v 120Ma for the new buffer which is in the post and on its way. 49 MHz Tent clock being fed by a 3.3V trident. Full frontal Ok so I had Will’s PK playing for a few hours and yes the clock has made some difference. It’s sounding a little smoother and more relaxed to my ears. The soundstage is also a little larger and deeper than it had been and also clarity and detail are enhanced. I’ll try the Tent Shunt on her tomorrow to hear what that does if anything. Sounding pretty good at the moment. Take care Hi Chris as above except i now have +-15v on the Buffer. price wise it's pretty reasonable for all matched Jfets soldered to the board and ready to go. so just the SMD resistors and cap to solder plus inductors and caps. ''HK$350 (~44USD) including Paypal fees and registered air mail worldwide'' is what i paid for the buffer. i found my own components so have a few inductors spare. the build was no harder than Will's PK well in fact it was easier due to experience gained. i connected the clock by stripping out R17 (disconnecting the old clock)and connecting the the new one to the vacant solder pad and the nearest ground. sounding good take care
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2013 23:13:50 GMT
and buffer fitted like this 2nd GB for components other than Jfets about to start.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2013 0:34:00 GMT
Cheers Shaun,
Tempting.....
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jan 2, 2013 5:39:28 GMT
and buffer fitted like this 2nd GB for components other than Jfets about to start. I like the buffer sitting on the acoustic isolation pads that have been formed specifically for the task..... Allan
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2013 11:58:19 GMT
Hi Allan haaaa yup giving away all of my trade secrets ;D ;D i just fixed it in that way for testing and now he's screwed down nice and tight. but still sounding good so looks like the isolation was not needed after all. take care
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2013 12:08:06 GMT
Hi Shaun, do you have the circuit for that buffer? Still tied up with #2 Pre/Power build but I'm watching all you'r getting up to here. Regards, Alan
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Post by cyteen on Jan 2, 2013 14:25:11 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 0:45:10 GMT
Hi Cyteen almost right that's the original version which has since changed just a little. this is the version that i have www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/216669-joachim-gerhard-filter-buffer-es9022-31.htmlpost 310 so more or less the same but with extra 100R gate stoppers and the VR removed. VR not needed due to super tight matching of the Jfets. R6 (240R) represents the OP impedance of the 9023/22 and is not used as a separate resistor on the board. likewise R5 represents the impedance of the inductor and is also not used on the board. C2 4n7 is already on the OP of the my PK DAC. so everything from the inductor onwards along with the 4n7. hope that makes sense but the link may do a better job of explaining things take care
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Post by cyteen on Jan 3, 2013 1:16:02 GMT
For completeness and convenience:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 1:27:37 GMT
You guys love the added warmth from FETs! If that isn't enough, the series 10 ohm and 220uF bypass caps will add a little more coloration in the midrange area . They would be best fed from some kind of Super Reg without the series 10 ohm resistors. Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 3:13:22 GMT
You guys love the added warmth from FETs! If that isn't enough, the series 10 ohm and 220uF bypass caps will add a little more coloration in the midrange area . They would be best fed from some kind of Super Reg without the series 10 ohm resistors. Alex Hi Alex yup a very small amount of added warmth but in this case IMHO the 9022/3 benefit from it. but I'm also OK with a small amount of milk and sugar in my coffee these two DAC's also benefit from the filtered top end IMHO and deliver a more balanced sound with it in place to my ears. i also think that just a quality 4n7 cap on the 9022/3 OP improves the top end a little and the filter buffer improves things in that respect still further. but I've used a buffer (DCB1) (and banged on about buffered OP) with this DAC for some time now and liked it. it just seemed to deliver more drive and less cable sensitivity. and it still left the ''slightly'' gritty top end in place. I've also tried a tube buffer (6n1p ev) now that was warm but quite nice. some people do compare Jfets to tubes but personally i just can't hear that. so as with most things some will like and some will not for me it's a winner. and worth the few hours and small cost involved with the build. yes i did wonder about the 10R's but have not really got round to trying with them removed. I've used a small series resister after some of my tube regs and yes it made the performance a little worse but improved the sound a little. strange I've another on order to play with take care
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 3:24:11 GMT
Hi Shaun Has anybody erlse mentioned that ? Perhaps it's what you get with the entry chip worth only a few $s ? Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 3:38:18 GMT
Hi Shaun Has anybody erlse mentioned that ? Perhaps it's what you get with the entry chip worth only a few $s ? Regards Alex nope but I'm just listening with my own ears ;D ;D but I'm assuming that others will have noticed the top end also or why bother to design and build the buffer. 150 units sold and still rising so maybe something in it. but as with most things opinion is divided buffer wise which is fine. entry level chip yes but the performance is quite staggering considering the price. IMHO this is a really good DAC. waaay better than it should be and a really nice sounding unit at a price that most can afford. apart from the great sound it's been great fun building and tweaking a just little. and my SMD work is getting better I've learned a little also take care
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 10:09:08 GMT
i also think that just a quality 4n7 cap on the 9022/3 OP improves the top end a little and the filter buffer improves things in that respect still further. Shaun, I found this in a DIYA thread about the 9023: ( www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/182013-ess-es9023-sabre-premier-dac-integrated-op-amp-6.html#post3288976) -" I assume quantran's referring to C5 and C6 on page 7 of the ES9023 datasheet. These are 4.7nF, which is readily available in C0G. Assuming the 9023 has the same 780 ohm output impedance as other ESS DACs this provides a first order lowpass at 43kHz (or would it be 720 ohm/47kHz?---I forget). If one's not fussy about in band phase response or high frequency flatness one could use a slightly larger cap but not much larger. 10nF would move the cutoff to 20kHz and is still plenty C0G friendly.
So I don't see any need to go to film caps here. That said, optimal choice of dielectric depends somewhat on which test results one looks at, but the measurements I've seen generally put PPS closer to C0G linearity (O(-100dB THD)) than polypro (O(-80dB THD))."- I also asked Frans about it and he confirmed those caps indeed form a 1st order low pass filter. He also told me any value between 2.2nF and 4.7nF would do OK, the lower the value the higher the roll off point and, of course, it also works the other way around so higher than data sheet value isn't recommended. 4.7nF would bring the LPF -3dB point to 43KHz so I went for something lower to lift it. I wanted to use NP0/C0G 3.3nF but at the shop they only had X7R 3.9nF, not optimal but will have to do as I'm not ordering from RS or Farnell just a couple of caps.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 10:57:12 GMT
Hi Javier Did you check that the X7R caps were closely matched in value for both channels ? I think that X7R may have fairly wide tolerance, and despite their usage in some commercial gear at similar locations, are far from the best type of capacitor to use there. They are also very non linear with temperature among other things. Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 11:34:34 GMT
Alex, they were quite cheap so I bought 6 and used a pair that had exactly the same value or 3900pF, even if specc'ed at +/-20% I found that the worst unit had lower than 5% deviation from nominal value, actually a fraction lower than 2%.
As to the type of cap not being the best there... I guess there are different opnions. Horses for courses. To me (O(-100dB THD)) linearity is good enough, moreso when 6 caps are under 1€. There are some very interesting links about different cap types used in audio in the last post of the above referenced thread at DIYA.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 11:49:31 GMT
Hi Javier I was mainly pointing out that they had such wide tolerance, and if you had only purchased a couple without checking them, they could have been well apart in capacitance value, which could possibly cause some unusual imaging effects. However, you have well and truly covered the bases there, and the price is quite good without needing to meet minimum quantity purchases from a major distributor. Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 11:57:59 GMT
hi Javier good points and as you say plenty of discussions had over a period of time over on DIYA. as that link you posted demonstrates but those caps with the rest of the filter on the buffer it forms a 3rd order LP filter so a little more control over the RO frequency. I'm also assuming the the OP impedance changes a little depending on the voltage applied to the chip 3V3 or 3V6 but i don't know that for sure. as for choice of OP cap well Chris noticed some difference between the caps that he tried but seemed to like the polyprops he tried last more than the others. ‘’On another note, I previously posted on my thoughts of using low nf value caps on the outputs. My conclusions there have been overturned somewhat; I had been using Wima MKPs but just found some brandx MKTs so thought I'd try. I only had 2n2 but have to say they are for more beneficial on the top HFs than the MKPs of any value tried. Giving a relief from the sharpness without losing any detail or presence. Result!’’ I'm going to be interested to hear your thoughts on the X7R caps but still have some polys left should you wish to try them out for yourself. but experiment away on that as it's a good way to find your own solution. I've not tried other types of cap but ATM I'm pretty happy with the sound as is but i may try later. Horses for courses yup each to there own and for my part I'm only speaking about what i hear. but guaranteeing that others will hear the same is something quite different. if only DIY was that simple take care
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 12:34:14 GMT
Probably I got lucky and they were from a better than average batch but the truth is all comnponents I got from that shop always have measured quite well be they resistors or caps. Over here RS, the cheapest of all all majors, charges 5€ for shipping and Farnell over 7€, I won't even mention Mouser or Digikey which on top of charging an arm and a leg also have to go through customs and have import duty and VAT applied. I only order from them when there is either no alternative, ie not sold on brick and mortar shops, or the BOM is large enough to justify it. BTW, what is the general consensus on R-Cores or C-Cores? in some fora they are much ppreffered to the regular E-Cores or toroids. Plus, their cost is not that much higher. I was given this link of a French site with HQ R-Core: www.selectronic.fr/selectronic_catalogsearch/results/index/?cat=282696641&q=r-core
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 14:31:47 GMT
Hi Cyteen, thanks for the circuit and all the chat it has drawn out. Shaun and Javier, your links messed up my morning but only because I got rather immersed in them and constantly side-tracked into other interesting threads when I really should be getting on with finalising my #2 build of the AKMODSSCHA/PRE for my son. However when that's put to bed I'll return to a buffer for Will's PK. Regards to all, Alan
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 16:15:01 GMT
BTW, what is the general consensus on R-Cores or C-Cores? in some fora they are much ppreffered to the regular E-Cores or toroids. Plus, their cost is not that much higher. I was given this link of a French site with HQ R-Core: www.selectronic.fr/selectronic_ca....696641&q=r-core Hi Javier nice link good prices and tempting. mmmmmmmmmmmm but i have another project about to start. so I'm interested if a little lacking in french language skills. of which i picked up very little at school. i do remember how to ask ''how many black cats can you fit on that spoon'' though. so not all a waste of time ;D ;D ;D do they take Le PayPal? do they have a discount for quantities ordered? if so a GB might be possible. Hi Alan ''Shaun and Javier, your links messed up my morning but only because I got rather immersed in them and constantly side-tracked into other interesting threads'' Good news and time well spent i hope that's why i posted links rather than the circuit as a little reading on the subject could be interesting and prove helpful. good luck with the build. take care
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 17:05:37 GMT
Shaun it'll be very nice to compare multilayer ceramic, preferably NP0 type, to HQ film but to make it apples to apples and pears to pears they'll both have to be the same value else you'll get different roll of points. Wouldn't you have by any chance some through hole NP0 2.2 or 4.7nF's in your parts box? I'm using very short interconnects (>20cm) so probably the buffer won't make much of a change in my system. My spoken French is not too shabby but my written is quite rusty for lack of practice though I guess it'll be good enough to order from their site. My only concern is shipping plus insurance cost being rather heavy parts. They accept credit card and money transfer no mention of PayPal I'm afraid. Merlin from DIYA has buyed from them a few times and says they are fine. Allan, isn't this forum basically about tempting one another???
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