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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2012 12:02:59 GMT
Could somebody with an external +5V JLH PSU, and a USB lead with VBus disconnected at the PC end of the USB cable ,please try using the same USB memory stick for Ready Boost as well, if there is enough free space ? The same powerboard that supplies the digital side of things should be used too. I have been using a new twin USB +5V JLH PSU for both a Ready Boost USB memory stick, and a much larger capacity USB memory stick for high res music files. However, although there is no shared connection between either, other than separate 6V secondary windings, things like email checking and other programs can cause annoying tiny disturbances. To overcome this I used 2 separate USB supplies which greatly improved matters, but wasn't a complete cure. Today I ripped a couple of DVD-A tracks to the playback Corsair, but then had to chop off the 1st 50milliseconds of the track using Sound Forge 9 to enable cPlay to play the tracks, but I inadvertently saved them to the smaller Corsair Voyager with Ready Boost instead of the playback Corsair. SO FAR, there is no evidence of any email or other programs causing clicks when played from the Ready Boost Corsair Voyager, and I believe the tracks sound slightly cleaner than the normal playback Corsair. The BIG surprise however, is that 24/192 tracks from the Ready Boost Corsair now open in cPlay almost instantaneously, compared with MANY seconds for the Playback Corsair ! Alex
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 4, 2012 14:37:49 GMT
Wouldn't it be easier to buy an internal SSD than to use Ready Boost at all? Ready Boost is for caching data from HD's for faster access. It doesn't do more. If you have your W7 system on a SSD, there's no need for (much slower) Ready Boost caching on an USB stick. IIRC, you already have a SSD. So I don't understand the reason for this thread. Don't tell me that Ready Boost is needed to additionally accelerate a SATA SSD (which is MUCH faster than any USB stick). If your REALLY think you need a separate media for ripping/playback, then I'd advise you to buy a second SATA(3) SSD for that purpose. Prices have dropped significantly in the last few months. Even faster would be a flash device on a PCI-E card like those offered by OCZ. The newest OCZ PCI-E flash devices use a x8 PCI-E slot however. A quote from the wikipedia article below: Maybe the real reason for the kind of "misbehaviour" of your USB sticks (which seems illogical) is the operating system you are using. I wouldn't be surprised if W7 handles the USB stick with Ready Boost different, i.e. it gets a somewhat higher priority from the system. According to internet sources, Ready Boost has also some benefits for computers that have only a rather small amount of RAM. This because swapping memory to HD is accelerated. If that's the case, you should expand you RAM and not play with USB sticks. IIRC, you have also enough RAM for usual task. For W7, 4GB RAM is the minimal amount that makes sense, but more is usually better (as long as you ensure that memory is running in dual, triple or quad channel mode if you mainboard is supporting it). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReadyBoostPerhaps you could test your USB sticks with WINSAT (see the wikipedia article), but I have doubts that you find real differences in performance as long as both USB sticks (including the used flash chips inside the stick) are identical and none of the sticks is worn out because of too much write cycles.
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Post by elysion on Jul 4, 2012 14:47:18 GMT
BTW: If you don't want to use the PSU of the PC for the SATA SSD, I'm sure you could make your own PSU for SATA.
There are 4-pin Molex to SATA-power adapters available that could be monfied. No need to deal with the very small SATA-power pins.
I agree with you that the output of a PC PSU isn't always as clean as desirable.
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Post by elysion on Jul 4, 2012 19:30:31 GMT
Just a guess: If W7 is preloading data onto the Ready Boost USB stick in the background, then the USB stick will be "always on". So no power saving on that USB stick/USB bus.
This is also a quote of the wikipedia article mentioned in a post from me above:
It's really only a guess, but at least it offers an explanation for a different behaviour of the USB sticks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2012 22:29:07 GMT
Just a guess: If W7 is preloading data onto the Ready Boost USB stick in the background, then the USB stick will be "always on". So no power saving on that USB stick/USB bus. This is also a quote of the wikipedia article mentioned in a post from me above: It's really only a guess, but at least it offers an explanation for a different behaviour of the USB sticks. Hi Christian At least with a normal PC with a 550W PSU I am not worried about another 500mA. I love the responsiveness using ready boost for opening pdfs,processing large images in CS2 , even loading my Optus homepage and flicking between forums is much quicker with their loading.It was also a little offputting waiting for 24/192 .wav files to load with cPlay too. Regards Alex P.S. I don't have an SSD. I use the Corsairs and the +5V JLH PSU for highest quality Audio storage and playback. That's an area that you and I will just have to agree to disagree about. Several Sydney members have also heard playback directly from my PC by this method too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2012 23:03:35 GMT
Just a guess: If W7 is preloading data onto the Ready Boost USB stick in the background, then the USB stick will be "always on". So no power saving on that USB stick/USB bus. Would that not be negated by the fact that power is drawn from the external JLH5vdc psu rather than the PC/laptop itself?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2012 23:25:00 GMT
Just a guess: If W7 is preloading data onto the Ready Boost USB stick in the background, then the USB stick will be "always on". So no power saving on that USB stick/USB bus. Would that not be negated by the fact that power is drawn from the external JLH5vdc psu rather than the PC/laptop itself? Sheeesh ! I must learn to have a coffee before I post anything in this forum. In my defence , I try to reply to posts before breakfast and fully waking up, due to you guys getting ready for bed. Alex.
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Post by elysion on Jul 4, 2012 23:34:10 GMT
Hi Alex,
perhaps we don't agree on everything, but that doesn't mean that we do always disagree.
Regarding the power supply of a specific device I tend to agree with you. I've heard a lot of improvements with better PSU's for audio devices (for example with the great Little Pinkie SE I have got from Mike for my X-Can V3, which is still one of my best amps).
Flash storage has a lot of advantages: It has very fast access times, much faster than any HD or optical media. Vibration and shocks are no problems for flash chips etc. Latency times are quite important for audio tasks and at least this IS a factor that makes a difference. Perhaps there are many other factors that count, but that's open to debate.
Interestingly, Windows Vista/7/8 are almost the only operating systems that support something like ready boost. USB2 itself is rather slow in comparison to SATA and USB sticks are also not speed champs (the access time of the flash memory are of course faster than with any harddrive).
I'd suggest you to get a SATA SSD when you can spend the money for it. I've hesitated very long to buy SSD's because the costs have been very high and the technique wasn't really reliable in comparison to harddrives. The prices have dropped significantly recently.
I've paid 249CHF for a 256GB Crucial m4 SSD not so long ago. Bigger capacities are still very costly but they will drop also. Often people use a (small) SSD for the OS and for the programs and store the data still on a big harddrives if the space on the SSD is too small. In your case, I'd recommend to rip directly to the SSD.
I can really recommend the Crucial m4 SSD series. They have Marvell controllers which work very reliable. You'll have almost no problem with these devices. Most SSD's use SandForce controllers, which are well known for a lot of problems (freezes, defect SSD's, problems with updating firmware). In benchmarks, SandForce equipped SSD's have a slight advantage over those with a Marvell controller, but in pratice you won't see a difference (beside the much better reliability of the Marvell controller). At the moment, there's IMO nothing better than the Crucial m4's. The m4's have also 512 Byte Sectors which is VERY advantageous for compatability reasons. Other SSD's have bigger sectors up to 8192 Bytes. This offers only slight advantages in speed (and this mostly for normal harddrives), but there are many compatibility issues with operating systems at the moment. Usually, you have to take care the the partitioning program takes care of the bigger sector size. If it doesn't you have to do partitioning by hand which can be a bit confusing for some.
Computer that had their system on a harddrive before will see a dramatic speed increase, mainly with the access time. I have also two harddrives at home which deliver quite fast data transfer rates (max. 206MB/s read for a current 2TB Seagate SATA3 HD). This isn't so much away from the 500MB/s that some SSD promise to deliver for read, but the access times are MUCH faster.
It's really worth a try now and prices will drop again certainly. It's only a matter of time.
In comparison to what we all are willing to spend for some audio devices, they are affordable already now. A good 256GB SSD costs about as much as a good amp/headphone. Some spend ten times as much for just a headphone.
Regards,
Christian
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Post by elysion on Jul 4, 2012 23:49:54 GMT
Perhaps it's more a question of the actual state of the USB bus. Maybe it's also something else.
If we compare how much time we are spending to discuss such issues with different USB sticks and how much time is needed to make alternative USB power sources, then I think it would be worth to spend the money for a SATA SSD which offers a lot of advantages in speed and overall handling.
Windows is still the operating system that lacks somewhat in it's audio subsystems in comparision to OSX or Linux with ALSA. I wouldn't suprised it latency times are a contributing factor on how the audio "quality" is perceived. I didn't notice a real difference on the Linux PC that has a SSD, but I'm listening mostly to web radio on that box and to the sound of games. That's not a real reference. I'll have to get music in open formats (again) to listen to the music on my Linux computers. A lot of my audio is in protected AAC and that works only within iTunes which means only on OSX and Windows. I knew that this would be a problem when I've bought the music in the iTunes store, so I don't regret the buy. Otherwise, I wouldn't have this music at all and, at least, I know now what I'll have to get in the future.
I'm still jobless at the moment and that means no money for buying music in open formats (if it's available this way at all).
My private migration to Linux will take a couple of years and probably I'll have at least one Mac if I'm finished with the migrations. I don't have to hurry, but I'm using Linux already a lot more than OSX. Since a couple of months, I use mainly my Linux computers at home.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2012 23:53:01 GMT
Hi Christian I have long lusted after a good reliable SSD for the OS, but thanks to the global downturn and Super taking a big hit, I simply can't justify that kind of expenditure these days.I have already verified to my own satisfaction that a JLH or even a decent C,L.C filter can improve SQ with a HDD, so I would expect that an SSD would respond similarly.In C.A. many members have built the C.A.P.S. 2.0 servers with SOtM SATA filter cards, so they must be hearing an improvement when doing so.It's just a different way of doing what I and quite a few others are doing.I neveer cease to be amazed just how touchy USB can be though, due to all these weird interactions. I think it may have been Gordon Rankin ( Mr.USB) who suggested that with Audio playback we should try to use different areas of the P.C. and not have several instances of USB running.Unfortunately, I am now stuck with a USB keyboard. Regards Alex
P.S. USB memory has another advantage over SSD, in that it doesn't need an internal Supercap or DC-DC converter. It actually further regulates down to +3.3V
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Post by elysion on Jul 5, 2012 1:32:38 GMT
Prices will drop further. Some day, you can afford them. I hope this day will be soon.
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 5, 2012 2:21:11 GMT
Something OT but related, Ready Boost under what conditions and HDD configuration it can be activated? I tried that on some HDD but wouldn't work with a message the HDD is not usable with Ready Boost.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 3:15:03 GMT
Something OT but related, Ready Boost under what conditions and HDD configuration it can be activated? I tried that on some HDD but wouldn't work with a message the HDD is not usable with Ready Boost. Chong Ready Boost is used with external USB memory or C.F. cards. Alex
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 5, 2012 6:07:19 GMT
Ready Boost is used with external USB memory or C.F. cards. Oh, so Ready Boost only for EXTERNAL flash memory cards and SSD and not for external HDD?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 6:27:34 GMT
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 5, 2012 8:14:30 GMT
Good to know. Hmm, might as well increase the RAM to free up the USB ports for others. Like now, I need at least 3 usb ports from my laptop to do backup with my 3 DASs.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 8:45:31 GMT
4GB is the maximum RAM that can be used in 32bit Windows and most probably only 3.5GB will be actually available. Max allocatable RAM to a single program would be 2GB. Still, that is more than enough for 99.99% of PC uses. I allways disable paging file when using 4GB of RAM (2 x 2GB) as there is no real need for it, it reduces disk access and frees space in the OS partition.
In 64bit Windows the RAM limit is so high there are no motherboards allowing to reach it but for home use 8GB should be ample. If heavy image, video or CAD/GIS software is used and system crashes or slows down (unlikely IMO) increasing to 16GB will solve the problem.
BTW, 2 sticks of matched 2GB cost peanuts these days (>30€ for 2 x 2GB DD3@1333).
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Post by pagan on Jul 5, 2012 14:16:05 GMT
4GB is the maximum RAM that can be used in 32bit Windows and most probably only 3.5GB will be actually available. Max allocatable RAM to a single program would be 2GB. Still, that is more than enough for 99.99% of PC uses. I allways disable paging file when using 4GB of RAM (2 x 2GB) as there is no real need for it, it reduces disk access and frees space in the OS partition. In 64bit Windows the RAM limit is so high there are no motherboards allowing to reach it but for home use 8GB should be ample. If heavy image, video or CAD/GIS software is used and system crashes or slows down (unlikely IMO) increasing to 16GB will solve the problem. BTW, 2 sticks of matched 2GB cost peanuts these days (>30€ for 2 x 2GB DD3@1333). I'd have to agree with this.... Why use an extra program to use usb or whatever mem when normal ram is so cheap. If you suspect you need more ram...... Just do a control, alt, delete in win7 and bring up the task manager to see how much ram you are actually using. I havn't used virtual mem for a long time, and that's with win7-64 and 4GB ram. And before you say "but I use a SSD and it's fast" It ain't as fast as normal ram and it won't thrash you ssd with needless read/rights. imho
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Post by elysion on Jul 5, 2012 16:26:33 GMT
Even 16GB of RAM cost peanuts today. You don't save anyhting with a computer that has not enough RAM. Javier and Pagan are absolutely right. Get the memory instead of thinking about it. That's the best you can do. For Win7 and most tasks, 4GB is still enough though. I have at least 4GB in my computer, some have 8GB and the fastest and newest one have 16GB. I don't really use those 16GB, but it was no real cost factor and those machines aren't swapping at all. They have a swap partition, but they don't use it in practice. SSD's have also dropped so significantly in price in the last few months, that it is hardly justifiable to go without one unless you really don't have the money. IMO it's better to get a good SATA SSD than trying around with stuff like Ready Boost, which is quite ridiculous from a technical side. Ready boost brings only slight advantages and is quite ugly. But I understand Alex: If it brings a slight advantage and you don't have the money for a SATA SSD, then go for it. It's better than nothing. I have harddisks like the Seagate mentioned above around which would be probably slowed down with stuff like Ready Boost. These harddisks have already 64MB cache on them (this cache consists of really fast DRAM and not of flash memory). So in most cases, which halfway new equipement, Ready Boost isn't much more than a placebo. As Micro$oft had announced Win Vista, there have been some hybrid harddrive/flash devices available. Basically a big harddrive with some additional GB of flash memory in one device. Those hybrid drives never got widely used and it was a commercial failure. If you want a real flash cache, then you should go for a SSD that is intended as flash cache. But this "Smart Response Technology" from intel is only working with the Sandy Bridge Z68 chipset and a couple of newer Ivy Bridge chipsets like Z77 (and a few others). Smart Response Technology only works with Windows so far. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Response_TechnologySince caching SSD's aren't much cheaper than (bigger) normal SSD's, you make the better deal by getting a normal SSD most of the time. It depends on your demands.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 22:10:12 GMT
4GB is the maximum RAM that can be used in 32bit Windows and most probably only 3.5GB will be actually available. Max allocatable RAM to a single program would be 2GB. Still, that is more than enough for 99.99% of PC uses. I allways disable paging file when using 4GB of RAM (2 x 2GB) as there is no real need for it, it reduces disk access and frees space in the OS partition. In 64bit Windows the RAM limit is so high there are no motherboards allowing to reach it but for home use 8GB should be ample. If heavy image, video or CAD/GIS software is used and system crashes or slows down (unlikely IMO) increasing to 16GB will solve the problem. BTW, 2 sticks of matched 2GB cost peanuts these days (>30€ for 2 x 2GB DD3@1333). Hi Javier You are preaching to the converted.I do have numerous programs such as Photoshop CS2 , several programs for video editing , Sound Forge 9 and many others. CS2 for example needs to reserve a fair chunk of memory or large images take forever to render. I use W7/32 not W7/64 so only 4GB is worth while installing. I do have 2 more identical high quality sticks, but with XP I ran into problems like trying to access incorrect memory locations, so had to go back to 2GB. It may be a motherboard problem, or it may also be that W7 will manage the additional memory better. Allan This old pensioner simply can't afford a decent SSD at present prices, and the jury is out on whether they sound better than HDD or not.SQ from an external Corsair will still have the edge as it can use a decent linear +5V supply, and not only does it not need noisy internal Supercaps or DC to DC Converters , it further regulates internally down to 3.3V ! Why do you think C.A. members putting together the Caps 2.0 server fit SOtM SATA supplies at considerably higher cost, even when using SSD ? To get best SQ from SSD or HDD you still need to improve their PSU further to prevent crap getting back into the rest of the system. In any case, you are one of the people that has heard Corsairs directly from my PC, as well as the distinct advantage of plugging the music Corsair into an external JLH PSU at the recent listening session using david2vk's W7 PC. Present playback is further improved over what you heard previously. Alex
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Post by elysion on Jul 5, 2012 22:40:53 GMT
Alex, if you can give me details about your motherboard (exact type), your BIOS version and the memory you use, I'll look what I can do for you. I'm used to find such nasty problems. Do you also use some special hardware (expansion cards, drives)? Do you remember the error message? Sometimes these error messages are misleading. If it is the error message I'm thinking of, then it is probably NOT related to your memory modules. It's a system fault in WinXP that encounters sometimes.
Does the old pensioner know a person in the Sydney area that already has a SSD? Allan for example? Perhaps you could do some tests there if you ask.
I have to look if I find a good and reliable audio latency test for the various Windows flavours. It would be VERY interesting to see what influence a SSD has on total system audio latency (in comparison the a harddrive and USB sticks). If there is a big difference in latency, then we would know a lot more than we do at the moment.
To be honest, I don't know at the moment how I can measure audio latency on Linux. But I know there are tests around for OSX and Windows. It's another good question how comparable the results will be.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 23:00:02 GMT
Hi Christian That was a few years back and I don't remember the exact messages. It caused too many program crashes during lengthy video conversions etc. I will try the put aside , supposedly premium memory, next time I have the PC apart.It may no longer be a problem when using W7/32. TBH, I am more interested in the slightly improved SQ when using a Corsair that has Ready Boost installed than finding out underlying reasons at the moment. The words D.M.A. or similar came to mind though.I wish I could find a way to stop that evil necessity Windows System Idle Process from happening when I am trying to play Audio. I suspect it may be doing things like starting Indexing , which I would prefer not to live without, but just control when. Bloody Norton is like that too. When it sees reduced activity it takes it upon itself to do background crap. You can only delay it for about 30 minutes though, which I have already told Norton Support is simply not adequate for Audio recording etc.. Regards Alex
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 6, 2012 0:13:09 GMT
Alex, you shouldn't be having any other programmes such as Norton, Photoshop, etc in that PC for audio. You should aim for a dedicated PC for audio only just like those in another thread building up their computer audio. I'm going towards that direction for my computer AV client, DAS and NAS system. Switches later as still playing about and learning to optimise the AV system. Also, don't need to be super expensive to do up a good computer audio system. Like I strolled down computer lanes 2 days ago, I picked up a cheap NOS Buffalo NAS. You just need to take your time at the computer mall to investigate what are there. You can be surprised to find what are still available just to meet a very good computer audio objective instead of now things crashing here and there when wanted to do computer audio. When you rebuild your computer audio PC again, sometimes it's good to reinstall whatever Win OS again from reformatted HDD. Win is notorious for slowing down after a period of use from a new install on top of those error messages.
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Post by pagan on Jul 6, 2012 2:33:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2012 2:57:17 GMT
Hi Allan I already knew that. It kicks in when you are listening to music for example. That's exactly what you don't want.It's evident by the HDD activity light going full bore when you aren't doing anything that should cause this activity.Unfortunately it's a necessary evil. I think the problem is what it causes to run, like Indexer which doesn't show up as a running process. Alex
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