One for the Vinyl addicts

[Deleted]

Manticore Mantra/Alphason XenonMCS/ATOC9mlII. (minimal tweakery)

Cjarchez, nice turntable that, but then im slightly biased, as i made the main spindle bearing, and inner platter for it. ;D

[Deleted]

Dec 14, 2009 15:27:38 GMT @heliharris said:

I don't want to give the wrong impression, I get very decent results from cd playback, for me though, vinyl gives me that little bit of extra musical satisfaction. If I was starting collecting from scratch it would be impossible to get everything I have on cd via LP.

I agree %100 with you on this one Nigel, i have a highly upgraded Marantz cd 85 and 17KI, both sound superb in slightly different ways, but give me the musical presence that my vinyl setup gives, any day.

You guys are like a couple of fussy, house proud old women !
heliharris has a strong emotional attachment, also because of his part in the making of quality turntable components. Half the satisfaction you guys get from vinyl, is because they still sound O.K. after all the treatment you have lavished on them. Things like spraying them with Permostat, or whatever gunk is the current flavour of last century,and polishing them, giving them the good old carbon brush treatment each time, and then carefully cleaning the stylus each time a couple of sides is played. Then there is of course the regular ritual of checking the stylus with a magnifying glass for excessive wear, and afterward getting out the protractor and yet once again setting up VTA, anti skating and tracking weight.
Add to that, wanting to remain blissfully unaware, that every time you play the thing, it sounds a little worse than the previous time you played it. Of course, then there is the other camp, who copy their latest new vinyl addition to CD, and only drag out the original when they want to impress visitors !
Do you guys also follow people around, picking off the fluff from their woollen jumpers too ?

SandyK

P.S.
I forgot to mention getting up from a comfortable chair just to change sides of the record. Unlike a Laser Disc player which in later versions was able to do this automatically.

[Deleted]

Dec 13, 2009 21:05:27 GMT toad said:

Alex,

I'm sorely tempted to go for the Cambridge Audio 840c and then when I have some cash build a custom audio PC. I have experience building PCs from scratch so I'd probably just go with parts you guys recommend. That way I could use SPDIF or optical out from a half decent PC soundcard into 840c as a DAC. I can worry about a better DAC at a later date... if at all LOL.

Besides, I won't be doing anything until the expense of Xmas is out of the way hehe. - Ian{quote]

Ian
Is that the REAL expensive one with SPDIF input and very high upsampling too ?
Alex

[Deleted]

Dec 14, 2009 15:47:39 GMT leo said:

One thing I find interesting which I've found with vinyl is its more stick it on and enjoy it rather than farting about worrying about the recording quality unlike with digital

Leo
You were lucky enough to get a decent classical recording.
See how you feel after playing some of the popular vinyl recordings from around the time when CD emerged, where dynamic range etc. was dramatically reduced in an effort to fit more on one side, or cut tracks from the album. It wasn't sheer coincidence that CD took over !
Alex

[leo]

I'd not claim it betters digital in every area but I now understand why vinyl has such a big following and I believe it will remain quite a few peoples reference for a long time
The sad thing is I cannot think of any stock commercial digital based source I've heard which I would buy and enjoy, I'm just glad I'm into diy

[Deleted]

Do you guys also follow people around, picking off the fluff from their woollen jumpers too ?

Alex,

Ive had my LP12 18yrs, and over that time have carried out 2mods to the deck, and one to my Zeta arm, Ive upgraded the power supply, and modified the main bearing on the deck, and rewired the arm, and arm main cable.

I reset the chassis springs, and change the bearing oil, about once a year, and thats it.

VTA, Cartridge tracking force and bias dose not alter, i have never examined my stylus under a magnified lens, and i remove the fluff from the stylus by gently blowing with puckered lips.

Yes i have purchased some awful quality pressed Vinyl over the years, but the good ones remain as good to the ear after many, many plays, as they did from new.

Of course there is mechanical wear taking place on the mating parts, as with everything, friction takes its toll, but to my ear, undetectable at present.

I do not dispute your scientific knowledge on the woes of vinyl, but to my ear, and many others, good quality vinyl is and will remain my reference to the sound of music.

Now i really must get on, have my chores to finish, which include:-

Washing and ironing my Tea towels, Flannels and Handkerchiefs.

Vacuuming and dusting the inside of my garage.

Making a new outfit for the Fairy on top of my Xmas tree ( fashions change you know).

And of course removing the fluff from my weekly import of local villagers jumpers

[Deleted]

heliharris
I just noticed a slip that I made.
I did of course mean: Add to that, wanting to remain blissfully unaware, that every time you play the record, it sounds a little worse than the previous time you played it.
Much of course also depends on just how good your RIAA preamp is. Even back then, I used an earlier version of my front end balancing. (input transistors) and one of my earlier preamps with this special RIAA preamp in it, will be used by a friend to rip the 1/2 speed mastered Audiophile recordings I gave him some time back,(and others) in conjuction with a very good turntable another friend gave him. He has promised me he will do them at 24/96 and give me copies if it all works out as hoped.
Alex

[toad]

Dec 14, 2009 21:16:33 GMT @sandyk said:

Ian
Is that the REAL expensive one with SPDIF input and very high upsampling too ?
Alex

Yes Alex, It's the model that upsamples to 384KHz

£900 is a hell of a lot of money to me but if it can be used as a half decent DAC too then it might be money well spent.

I hope to be able to audition one in my home rig for a couple of weeks before laying down the cash.

My Arcam DV135 is a pretty impressive CD spinner in it's own right. It kind of breaks the mold for the does it all player so the 840c will need to beat that hands down for it to be worth my while.

Ian

[Deleted]

I did of course mean: Add to that, wanting to remain blissfully unaware, that every time you play the record, it sounds a little worse than the previous time you played it.

Alex,

Nobody is more blissfully AWARE of how my system sounds then me, and i can assure you that any noticeable SQ degradation would be noticed instantly, especially on the few records that i play on a regular basis. I am fortunate to use a very high end Cartridge ( Koestsu Rosewood Signiture) which i chose after testing many other high end (and more expensive alternatives) including others in the Koetsu range. Properly set up ( not to difficult) this cartridge gives unbelievable sound quality at all frequencies, with imaging and presence that i have yet to hear on any cd player, and ive heard a few top quality players for comparison, including the Chord Elec RED REF £13000, and the RegaISIS £6000 the latter being the best player ive ever heard to date and came very close but not better than my Vinyl setup.

I am fortunate, i am in a position where i can listen to equipment, in my own home, supplied by friends that i have in the Hi-Fi world on a loan basis. So trust me on this, when i hear better i will let you know, but dont hold your breath, could be a long time coming.

Now i must get on , the Gnomes in my garden have noticed the new outfit on my Xmas tree Fairy, and are insisting that they have new Winter cloths to, or else they wont tend my garden next Spring, and Summer. The things us Wool pickers, with nothing else to do, have to put up with!!

[Will]

Something that I recently heard about is that there is group of people who are sampling their vinyl albums, with all that hi-rez content, and uploading them to torrent groups, to allow people to download and listen to them. This is in counterpoint to people who have bought hi-rez music files, and then been shocked when they heard the needle hit the record, on their brand new 24/96 .wav file

I have probably 4-5 vinyl records, that I have no record player for, that I keep for collectors value (white label/radio demo stuff) but there is no way I could build up a vinyl collection now, as other people have said.

The one thing that CD/downloads do not give me is the whole ownership thing that buying a LP gave you. Apart from the SQ aspect, when you bought an LP, you got something. Big gatefold album, picture inserts, maybe a big poster (Queen's Jazz album springs to mind) It was a something special to buy an LP. CD doesn't do that for me.

[leo]

Vinyl copied onto cd or onto the HD still does not sound the same as straight vinyl, once its gone through the ADC that vinyl thing is lost imo
Its annoying you want faithful vinyl sound you have to have a vinyl set up


Hi Will,

Try and find some HRX 176.4 material and try that with your Buffalo

[serverbaboon]

Nov 22, 2009 4:38:28 GMT @sandyk said:

"The RIAA defines acceptable frequency losses for LPs as down to 20 kHz after 1 play, 18 kHz after 3, 17 kHz after 5, 16 kHz after 8, 14 kHz after 15, 13 kHz after 25, 10 kHz after 35, and 8 kHz after 80 plays."

Does this mean that if I play me LP's enough they will eventually sound as flat and lifeless as a CD?

[Deleted]

Dec 15, 2009 17:45:52 GMT leo said:

Vinyl copied onto cd or onto the HD still does not sound the same as straight vinyl, once its gone through the ADC that vinyl thing is lost imo
Its annoying you want faithful vinyl sound you have to have a vinyl set up

You can also record to the humble compact cassette! (or reel to reel if you have one). A good quality tape deck with decent cassettes is the only format that will do a respectable job of capturing the vinyl sound. Of course this does not get around the wearing out problem which tape is also prone to.

Even in the car I'd rather listen to tape than CD.

Now I've said that I'm off to the air-raid shelter

[Deleted]

Dec 15, 2009 18:30:08 GMT @cjarchez said:

Dec 15, 2009 17:45:52 GMT leo said:

Vinyl copied onto cd or onto the HD still does not sound the same as straight vinyl, once its gone through the ADC that vinyl thing is lost imo
Its annoying you want faithful vinyl sound you have to have a vinyl set up

You can also record to the humble compact cassette! (or reel to reel if you have one). A good quality tape deck with decent cassettes is the only format that will do a respectable job of capturing the vinyl sound. Of course this does not get around the wearing out problem which tape is also prone to.

Even in the car I'd rather listen to tape than CD.

Now I've said that I'm off to the air-raid shelter

Chris
I agree with both of you. Typical affordable CD playback is abysmal, which is why I am going the PC route with CD ripping. It's all there on decent CDs. but you need to get rid of most of the jitter.
You need to use a good soundcard and to save vinyl to 24/96 for better results.
Alex
P.S.
My modified Sony DAT player also did a better job at 16/48, as did my modified Nakamichi BX2 before I wore it out, and spare parts became too hard/too expensive to get.

[Deleted]

Dec 15, 2009 17:48:44 GMT serverbaboon said:

Nov 22, 2009 4:38:28 GMT @sandyk said:

"The RIAA defines acceptable frequency losses for LPs as down to 20 kHz after 1 play, 18 kHz after 3, 17 kHz after 5, 16 kHz after 8, 14 kHz after 15, 13 kHz after 25, 10 kHz after 35, and 8 kHz after 80 plays."

Does this mean that if I play me LP's enough they will eventually sound as flat and lifeless as a CD?

serverbaboon
As flat and lifeless as your CDs, not my ripped to USB pen CDs
SandyK

[Deleted]

Something that I recently heard about is that there is group of people who are sampling their vinyl albums, with all that hi-rez content, and uploading them to torrent groups, to allow people to download and listen to them. This is in counterpoint to people who have bought hi-rez music files, and then been shocked when they heard the needle hit the record, on their brand new 24/96 .wav file

Will
A guy in Computer Audiophile did that. He wasn't too happy when myself and another member told him that he appeared to have stylus tracking problems. It sounded bloody awful ,even when played with Foobar.
Alex
P.S.
It never ceases to amaze me how so many people spend 6 or more times more on their vinyl set up, then rave about how much better it sounds than their CDs.
Or for that matter, people who spend a small fortune on a DAC, then feed it from a mediocre CD player,or a noisy PC or Mac.

[rowuk]

Dec 15, 2009 17:48:44 GMT serverbaboon said:

Nov 22, 2009 4:38:28 GMT @sandyk said:

"The RIAA defines acceptable frequency losses for LPs as down to 20 kHz after 1 play, 18 kHz after 3, 17 kHz after 5, 16 kHz after 8, 14 kHz after 15, 13 kHz after 25, 10 kHz after 35, and 8 kHz after 80 plays."

Does this mean that if I play me LP's enough they will eventually sound as flat and lifeless as a CD?

The RIAA was referring to plays one immediately after the other. The Stylus is pushing on the vinyl with a ton or 2 of pressure per square inch. That deforms the groove. If you give the record a chance to recooperate, it will. Those stylii are not just lopping off the high parts of the groove (if they are in reasonable shape).

I really do not like the dogmatic arguments. I have heard very believable presentations from both camps. You have to "celebrate" the LP because of its vulnerability. If you have any knowledge of the entire process, you know that any recording made to tape also had an unnatural cutoff frequency determined by the tap head gap and to a certain extent the tape bias frequency. You also must be aware of what tape saturation does. Any of you that have any real experience with even the finest microphones back then know that they also had a really nasty resonance between 20 and 40Khz that was not a problem because of the high frequency rolloff.

Still back then, companies like Mobile Fidelity had vinyl that sounded better than the digital copies. Digital has come a LONG way since back then. Still the "celebration" is missing. No Keith Monks record washer, no stylus brush, no baby powder for the Linn Record deck springs. Nope, today for top fidelity, you just push a button or click with a mouse. That can't be ANYWHERE near as good.

Hey guys, just strip the arguments of the bullshit. I may not get along with your wife, that doesn't make her ugly!

If you are in it for the MUSIC, 40dB of dynamic range will still give us enough of a picture. If we are in it for the emotion, then what ever gets your rocks off, if we are in it for the technology, digital will absolutely clean up. If the music is well played, YouTube can get me excited. If the performance is garbage, high performance RAID SSDs will be annoying to me.

For the record: MUSIC IS MEASURED IN THE EMOTION THAT IT GENERATES. That cannot be measured in S/N, dynamic range or veils. Lets get the transistor out and the sex back in!

I had a Bach concert last night that went VERY well, even more so, I had more fun than I have in a long time. That is the message from me to you for this week. MAKE IT FUN!

[Deleted]

The RIAA was referring to plays one immediately after the other. The Stylus is pushing on the vinyl with a ton or 2 of pressure per square inch. That deforms the groove. If you give the record a chance to recooperate, it will. Those stylii are not just lopping off the high parts of the groove (if they are in reasonable shape).

Robin
And there is no damage whatsoever to the stylus and it's suspension every time it is "ever so gently, lowered" ( ) onto the spinning record ?
Just remember also, that there is normally a lot more care taken with classical recordings in general, at the recording stages, whether on LP, CD or SACD.All of these can sound very good with decent recordings and playback systems. Incidentally, pre recorded DAT tapes also sounded very good indeed, but were hard to find.
Alex
P.S.
You forgot to mention "self bias" at HF, and the direct to digital Vinyl recordings that started to appear as CD arrived.I had a piano recording using this technology by some guy called Al Marino, and it sounded fabulous.

[videoguy]

Alex: I blieve they were direct to disc sessions; no digital involved. The output from the analog mixing console was fed directly to the disc mastering chain & the acetate master disc was cut with no intermediate steps or conversions involved. Was marginlly involved with one of these projects in Nashville, 1979.

[Deleted]

videoguy
You may be correct, as that was a long while ago.
However, the quality was superb, and far ahead of other vinyl I had in my possession at the time, other than the Audiophile Half Speed Mastered discs which were sold at HI FI shows back then, and which were nice and heavy, as well as having low surface noise. I believe that the frequency response of those half speed mastered discs was claimed to go as high as 35KHZ ? I gave up on vinyl due to declining standards as they tried to cram more on a side, at the expense of dynamic range.
Alex

P.S.
I have located the disc that I was referring to. The pianist's name was Joe Marino, not Al Marino.

[rowuk]

Dec 15, 2009 21:48:33 GMT @sandyk said:

Robin
And there is no damage whatsoever to the stylus and it's suspension every time it is "ever so gently, lowered" ( ) onto the spinning record ?
Just remember also, that there is normally a lot more care taken with classical recordings in general, at the recording stages, whether on LP, CD or SACD.All of these can sound very good with decent recordings and playback systems. Incidentally, pre recorded DAT tapes also sounded very good indeed, but were hard to find.
Alex
P.S.
You forgot to mention "self bias" at HF, and the direct to digital Vinyl recordings that started to appear as CD arrived.I had a piano recording using this technology by some guy called Al Marino, and it sounded fabulous.

I have just about all of the early Sheffield Sound Labs direct to disc LPs. I bought them all in th late 70's and early 80s. They do sound magnificent. The digital copies also sound fine, you just have to accept a bit of rumble (in spite of the Audio Technica vacuum plate to suck the records flat) and of course the snap-crackle and pop that is inherent in discs that develop an electrostatic charge in spite of permostat, zerostat guns, carbon fibre brushes or a Keith Monks record washer. Any attempt to digitally cleanse them has proven to be audible. Making sure that the RIAA EQ curve is right is critical to getting ALL of the instruments to sound real though.

I used to record my concerts directly to DAT tape. Still have some kicking around.

[guadixman]

Strange how the vinyl forum has been hijacked by the digital crowd?

Videoguy - we need to hear more from you please. It was couple of years ago but another recently retired American pro appeared on the Vinyl Engine and he posted incredible material on how styli function and in detail all the different types - absolutely fascinating reading. He even went into the damage that various types of styli can do to the vinyl. It will not be a surprise to you that the 103 has a much larger interface with the vinyl so is kinder to the LP.

For those who like classical, check out the Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra since their conductor died they play without one and have a lot of music released using all valve gear, mikes recording gear, everything.

Sandyk is here again with his sweeping generalizations. My TT does'nt do rumble, I don't aquire warped LPs and now he's backtracking on expense ie. you should'nt be using cheap CDPs.

Chris, the Manticore was something I nearly bought into, very fine gear indeed.

Mick - I am green - a Rosewood that is something special. I bought s/hand a Pickering hybrid from another WD member who did'nt like it. When it comes time for stylus replacement there are quite a few to choose from. The stylus has a large interface with the vinyl but I may well go for a Shibata. Do check out the thread on VE it makes fascinating reading.

If I find that one or more of the ICs has gone belly up on my Kennie I will have no hesitation in buying another I just get pissed off when Germans will not entertain selling abroad.

The good thing about the KD990 is that it is built on a massive aluminium spider so, removing the high density chipboard ( the Kenwood engineers knew exactly what they were doing using this) I then have 4 not 1 arm bases to work with and the arm is so beautifully constructed that I can have two, one for LPs that are great to listen to but maybe not so kind to the stylus and another.

Set-up with this arm is a doddle those jap engineers really thought the whole thing out.

There was so much deliberate dis-information when the Japanese superdecks appeared - nothing to do with pressure from advertisers like Garrard and Lenco - no of course not.

Some really love there totally automatic TTs and why not but it is the semi-automatics that are so good. All they do is turn off the rotation and lift the arm up at end of side and that facility was something that the likes of Garrard were never going to do - an absolute joy when you are still basking in the afterglow of a really good piece of music. I would never bother to muck around with mats - the original that came with the TT does what it is supposed to do.

Has anyone thought about buying/building an 'air-suspension arm' If or when I go skeletal with the KD990 I might well have a go.

As we all know Sandy and Robert love their numbers game but I agree with others that say they cannot hear any real deterioration in their vinyl of course we have all had our brains modified - yea right.

[Deleted]

IMHO the CD (and other digital formats that exceed the CD format) are technically superior to vinyl in almost all aspects (the frequency range may be an exception for well recorded vinyl).
No point in debating this because it is a FACT...

If you have ever played with a tone generator and love blowing up tweeters with inaudible freq because you can't hear them but only feel a 'pressure' at otherwise ear deafening levels (above 18kHz for most adults) you will KNOW that the frequency range is NOT a problem anyway.

Vinyl can SOUND better,sweeter, more involved, musically e.t.c though ...but that doesn't mean it IS technically 'better' or contains more or more precise audio information.
In this case you just prefer the 'coloration' of this medium.

There is no right or wrong here.. only a matter of taste and convictions.

If you like vinyl better then listen to it and enjoy it.
If you like digital better then listen to that and enjoy it.
If you sometimes prefer digital and other times vinyl who cares...

The 'which is better' discussion is as pointless.
The only thing the 2 formats have in common is the music on it...

I know ... I must be mad for stating this..

I read on a forum..

'Fighting' on a forum is like competing in the special olympics.
No matter if you win the fight ... you're still a retard.

I like to leave it at that.. and note it is not my intention to hurt peoples feelings with this quote (I have a 'mentally challenged' kid myself)

[Deleted]

Does this mean that if I play me LP's enough they will eventually sound as flat and lifeless as a CD?

:)You would have to play them an awful lot, some of mine have been played well over a hundred times, with the same Arm, cartridge set up and still out shine my very good cd player.

My Tracy Chapman LP of 1988 vintage still sounds as good as the day i bought it with at least 150 plays under her belt.

[XTRProf]

Feb 19, 2010 20:49:48 GMT @heliharris said:

My Tracy Chapman LP of 1988 vintage still sounds as good as the day i bought it with at least 150 plays under her belt.

Hi Mick, that's a very good album.

Hey guys, when we talk about wear, we have to accept that there will be for vinyl. However, we have also to talk about what type of vinyl. Super vinyl, like those on Mofi of old, or virgin vinyl, or it's variations, like those present nowadays on audiophile vinyls. These will wear much lesser due to their technical superiority in hardness and "lubrication". Don't ever forget if you use LAST Stylast and record preservative (lubricant) or it's competitors' formulae, the equation changes drastically again.

Ah, the most important VTF! Don't think that the lesser the VTF, the lesser wear. This could be the reverse depending on your cartridge behaviour. At the same time, we have to take into account that different stylus shapes will dig into different portions of the groove and sound refreshing again for those supposed to be worn vinyls.

Don't ever think that CDs or their hirez variations will never wear. I have CDs with see thru pin holes on the aluminium data layer after some years. So much for CDs ........