Can a UPS enhance hearing experience?

[elysion]

IMHO a UPS (uninterruptable power supply) can enhance the hearing experience of audio devices connected to it.

I'm rather sure with this, as I heard big improvements with all my headphone amplifiers when they are connected to a UPS. I saw the same effect with a little Technics HiFi amplifier (Technics "new class a"). I own three types of headphone amplifiers: MF X-CAN v2, V-CAN and Sennheiser LUCAS. I use them with Sennheiser HD580 and HD650 headphones.

There're many types of UPS available and some of the simpler constructed units maybe have less or no influence on the quality. But with better UPS units there should be a real benefit.

Better power supplies like the X-PSU and Little Pinkies maybe have more influence on the quality of the hearing experience. I don't have them and can't compare them. Most UPS don't have components in the same quality used in the X-PSU or LittlePinkie.

Have a look at this article:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply

When we look at the 9 common power problems which can occur, you'll see that some of them are addressed by better power supplies and UPS units. Some of the problems are exclusively addressed by high-end UPS (those which are "true online" and have "true sine-wave output").

I have a couple of UPS systems, but at the moment I use only two of the more simpler devices with part of my audio equipment. I use a low-end APC Back-UPS RS 500 with the little Technics "new class a" amplifier and an APC Smart-UPS 750VA (SUA750I) with my headphone amplifiers (and lots of energy efficient computer equipment). The Technics amplifier is in the house where my parents live, the rest of my audio equipment is in my apartment. My experience was that the Smart-UPS 750VA had much more positive effect on the audio quality.

If I find the time, I'll test my other UPS units also. I have two Eaton Powerware UPS which claim to address all of the 9 common power problems and to have true sine-wave output. There is also a comparable UPS unit from SICON-Socomec (a french manufacturer) here. The bad thing about them is their size/power. In contrast to the rather small APC units I own, they draw more power (1000W / 1500VA at maximum). This if fine if you really use that much power (then a UPS this size will be rather efficient), but if you only use a fraction of the capacity of such a big UPS, then it will only increase your energy bill. The Smart-UPS 750VA is enough to handle three headphone amplifiers, two MacMinis (with 24" and 26" TFT), a managed 24-port Gigabit-Ethernet switch, a router, an ASRock ION330 with a 17" TFT, a couple of IKEA LED lamps, a AXIS network-cam and three Synology NAS (DS107+, DS209, DS508) simultaneously. There rest of my computer equiment is not connected to the UPS.

Has anybody experience using UPS with audio devices? I'm really interested to hear other opinions to this issue. If I'm right and others can also see beneficial effetcs, then if would be easy to enhance various audio equipment (and to protect it from dangerous power problems). New UPS are not extremely costly and it's possible to buy cheap used units (like my three true sine-wave UPS).

[elysion]

I see, there's not much interest in this thread.

But I have some new information and hope this makes it a bit more interesting:

As I have mentioned, I was quite sure that a high-quality UPS is a good power source for audio equipment. Because almost no one uses a UPS for audio purposes (am I the only one?), probably not many audiophile hearers have tested it.

OK, let's test: Last week I spent about a day with a friend, testing one of my UPS (an Eaton Powerware 1500VA online/true sine-wave UPS) with his audio devices.

My friend has LogicAudio on a MacBook for audio production. He uses an Apogee Duet Firewire interface combined with a Waldorf Q Synthesizer, a Behringer 16-channel mixing console (we know: this one is not the best...), Yamaha HS80M active monitors and AKG K240 headphones. Most parts are connected with Neutrik cabling.

First of all, we tested everything in the state it was. Then we connected all devices to the UPS and did intensive testing.

The results are very promising: My friend almost instantly heard an overall improvement. The sound was "deeper" and offered more details. It was so good that he decided, that he finally needs a UPS. He can use my Eaton Powerware UPS for the next few months and he will continue testing it. (I hope he doesnt' change his mind )

I was also very satisfied with the benefit I got from using a UPS with my headphone amps.

I guess the results are most promising when using equipment without high-end PSUs. And if you already have very good power sources (X-PSU or a Little Pinkie for instance), it is very unlikely that it has an adverse effect.

I'm convinced already... and my friend is too... Maybe I can convince him to write down his impressions here in the forum (after a couple of weeks using the UPS).

[andy]

i have a spare ups somewhere.

will have to try this.

My normal heaphone amp uses 30AH of 12V sealed lead acid, that works well!

[Deleted]

Dec 3, 2009 22:48:47 GMT andy said:

i have a spare ups somewhere.

will have to try this.

My normal heaphone amp uses 30AH of 12V sealed lead acid, that works well!

andy
Forget it. A standard UPS can not improve SQ, unless it also incorporates additional surge suppression devices which are in line at all times .
A normal affordable UPS has one purpose in life, which is to quickly change over to an internally generated source of mains voltage, for a long enough period to enable safe shut down of a computer etc.
It also means additional wiring and (most likely) relay contacts, which are more than likely going to cause a small degradation if anything.
A device that regenerates a clean sinusoidal wave form from rectifying the incoming mains supply,and then generating it's own mains rated supply is a completely different kettle of fish, and usually quite expensive.
Well designed amplifiers etc. should be capable of ignoring most mains borne problems, unless your mains supply is very poor indeed, although it would still pay to have a good surge suppressor in line, which incorporates VDRs to reduce the effects of high level spikes and protect your equipment long enough in the case of gross overvoltage, for correctly rated internal fuses in the equipment to blow.

SandyK.

See also, a very informative recent post by "barrows" at the attached link.
www.computeraudiophile.com/content/what-are-CAs-doing-better-AC-PIOs-Regenerators

[elysion]

I totally agree with SandyK.

I must be a high-quality UPS. Usually SQ enhancing components are only found in line-interactive or online UPS (midrange and high-end UPS).

At home I use a midrange UPS (APC Smart UPS 750VA) which is not a high-end UPS. But I clearly hear SQ improvement. I also use additional line-filters in rack-style powerbars.

Here is a link to the product specs:
www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA750I

The specs are not very detailed. They say it has "Filtering: Full time multi-pole noise filtering / 0.3% IEEE surge let-through / zero clamping response time / meets UL 1449". I guess it's sure it has some line-filtering. I can't easily open the UPS to see what's inside – it runs all the time to deliver battery protected power to my computers and NAS.

The Eaton Powerware UPS we have used with my friends equipment is a high-end UPS with almost everything a UPS lover can dream of. I will try to get specs for it. I have to get the exact model number (I don't remember it and both Eaton UPS are in my friends apartment). Since it is a discontiuned model I will have to do some search in the internet.

New high-end UPS are really quite expensive. But you can do it the same way I did: Look out to get some used high-quality UPS systems. Sometimes you'll need to replace the batteries.

It is important to choose the UPS as small as possible. Otherwise you will spend a lot more for your electrical bill. This was the main reason why I use the midrange APC Smart UPS 750VA at home. It simply delivers the needed power. Also take the peak energy demand of the connected equiment into account. You need to have some extra resources from the UPS to cover the peak demand (don't overload a UPS!). At 750VA almost nothing is really better than the APC Smart UPS 750VA (the models from other manufacturers are comparable and not really better). I you take a bigger UPS (about 1500VA or more), you will get a much greater range of UPS to choose from. Most "professional" UPS are intended for business use (server rooms for instance). "Private" use is mostly limited to home users which wan't to protect their computers with a battery backup (those UPS are crap...). Of course, it would be possible to develop high-quality UPS for small energy demands (750VA and less), but no one demanded them and therefore no one built them.

[andy]

I have an old hospital UPS somewhere.
It is a full generator bassed system stripped out of an old operating theatre a few years ago, completely forgot about it till now!!
it used to have a load of 12V batteries (40 ish) that powered everything while the generator kicked in.
I will have a look and see what filtering it has built in, may be able to incorporate it into my dedicated mains spur.
A friend uses the generator for powering lights and equipment in his barn.
Somthing to do tommorow anyway!

[elysion]

Furman already sells all kinds of power conditioners and special AV-UPS (?!).

www.furmansound.com/

Cool and handy products... but they are really costly.

[rowuk]

I have had great results with the APC RT series that does create its own sine wave. Here is the one that I use: www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SURTA1500XL&total_watts=50

It is available at prices lower than a set of boutique cables! There are often promotional prices available.

[Deleted]

Most UPS have a bypass, meaning the 230V output is not generated again but it is only generated on power loss at the primary.
Meaning the 230V input is filtered (standard AC input filter for harmonics and mostly with surge protectors) and fed to the ouput via a relay when the primary is on.
Most manufacturers claim true sine wave but most are an approximation in several steps that look like a sine wave but are high on harmonics.
Sine approximations can also be made using PWM but are more rare.
ONLY with an oscilloscope you can tell and only when it runs on its batteries.

Be carefull with what you choose !

The extra filtering on the input and surge arrestors may well be all you need anyway.
So a good filter with surge arrestors is much cheaper and will have the same effect.

Only very expensive UPS always run the output always from their own generator (sync'd or not sync'd with the input)

[mrarroyo]

I have a regenerator unit using a amp and two transformers made by Monarchy Audio. Very happy with it after almost 2 years of use.

[Deleted]

The Monarchy is probably the best way to get a 'clean' power supply.
Also these things still leak some HF/RF energy from the mains but WAYYYY less then a UPS will !

Most UPS that are sold (those for computer back-up) are not build this way.
They have a much cheaper topology and PC's don't need a nice sinewave... they just want power.
Since all PC's have SMPS the PC's do not care what power they get... as long as it is there... it is rectified and converted anyway inside.

[Deleted]

Hi Guys,
FWIW for over a year now I have used a 1500vA APS Smart UPS to supply all my audio and AV kit, including a 40" HD Sony LCD TV and the Sky HD box. I cannot argue with or counter Sandyk or Frans' technical knowledge of this matter but I strongly believed that it improved both the hi-fi sound and the TV picture.
I chose to do this after reading on another audio forum from a guy who recommended it after doing the same himself.
Like I said, FWIW .
Dave

[Deleted]

Jul 21, 2010 22:50:09 GMT @davek said:

Hi Guys,
FWIW for over a year now I have used a 1500vA APS Smart UPS to supply all my audio and AV kit, including a 40" HD Sony LCD TV and the Sky HD box. I cannot argue with or counter Sandyk or Frans' technical knowledge of this matter but I strongly believed that it improved both the hi-fi sound and the TV picture.
I chose to do this after reading on another audio forum from a guy who recommended it after doing the same himself.
Like I said, FWIW .
Dave

Dave
Frans has already answered this in a recent post. Even without sine wave regeneration, they will almost certainly have better mains filtering and protective devices like VDRs to help reduce mains rubbish.
A high quality mains filter will also give similar results to a non sine wave regenerating UPS. I use a good quality mains filter with VDRs to supply my AV gear.
Alex

[XTRProf]

I'm a KISS fellow and don't believe in adding more to the system. I have not compared a system with UPS and a system without although I had heard a very high end system with a PS Audio regenerator before. But I always favour a nice power cable (like Oyaide Tunami) with simple build in RF suppressor over an AC filtered conditioner anytime. The sound is just more dynamic and alive with the music flowing.

I had an embarassing experience many stars ago in a listening session. The host was boasting how a balanced power supply had enhanced the sound quality of his system. I dunno whether he had compared it after he had built the balance power supply. However, when one member of the invited cohorts asked for a comparison with and without the balance power supply, the without blew the balance away. The music was just so much more engaging, flowing, with more dynamics and much less hf annoyance. After this, the balance power supply, at 2KVA transformer, was not longer to be sighted during a revisit for other things. Of course, your system must be hirez enough to hear it properly.

So KISS does work .......... Our beloved Rick also believed in this when he talked about whether to use JLH or not some time back if you can recall .........

[Deleted]

Jul 22, 2010 2:14:51 GMT XTRProf said:

I'm a KISS fellow and don't believe in adding more to the system. I have not compared a system with UPS and a system without although I had heard a very high end system with a PS Audio regenerator before. But I always favour a nice power cable (like Oyaide Tunami) with simple build in RF suppressor over an AC filtered conditioner anytime. The sound is just more dynamic and alive with the music flowing.

I had an embarassing experience many stars ago in a listening session. The host was boasting how a balanced power supply had enhanced the sound quality of his system. I dunno whether he had compared it after he had built the balance power supply. However, when one member of the invited cohorts asked for a comparison with and without the balance power supply, the without blew the balance away. The music was just so much more engaging, flowing, with more dynamics and much less hf annoyance. After this, the balance power supply, at 2KVA transformer, was not longer to be sighted during a revisit for other things. Of course, your system must be hirez enough to hear it properly.

So KISS does work .......... Our beloved Rick also believed in this when he talked about whether to use JLH or not some time back if you can recall .........

XTRProf
You can KISS my ass !
Sorry, but I disagree with you now, as I often disagreed with Rick back then. There are numerous reports of improvements when using a JLH, even from Mike.
The main problem with most inline filters is the actual resistance of the unit due to the gauge of copper wire used etc., as well as needing individual heavy duty filters for some things such as TVs.
In any case,external filters are NOT needed if the product is well engineered. Remember though that most commercial products are built to a price set by the bean counters, NOT the engineers who designed them.
SandyK

P.S.
Guess what happens without a protective filter if you get a MUCH higher than normal mains supply voltage for more than a few seconds ?

[elysion]

I love sine-wave regenerating UPS's, they really rock!

You should hear an clear improvement in SQ, unless your gear has already very good PSU's. As bonus you will get battery backup and surge protection. The latter is important: Imagine your gear toasted after a lightning strike (OK... a direct hit will kill even the best UPS).

A good true-online UPS (with sine-wave regeneration) is often cheaper than mains filters that are sold hifi gear.

[Deleted]

Jul 22, 2010 5:17:27 GMT elysion said:

I love sine-wave regenerating UPS's, they really rock!

You should hear an clear improvement in SQ, unless your gear has already very good PSU's. As bonus you will get battery backup and surge protection. The latter is important: Imagine your gear toasted after a lightning strike (OK... a direct hit will kill even the best UPS).

A good true-online UPS (with sine-wave regeneration) is often cheaper than mains filters that are sold hifi gear.

Perhaps we can twist Jeff C's arm into posting details of his new DIY high performance AC filters ?
There are much cheaper ways to markedly reduce the effects of noise and waveform distortion of the incoming mains power, unless you have an abysmally poor mains supply.
A UPS is unlikely to compare with a direct mains supply as far as dynamics are concerned with higher powered amplifiers.

[jeffc]

OK Alex,

The Chinese burns are starting to hurt , I'll take a couple of snaps of my DIY AC RFI filter box on the weekend and throw it open for 'constructive feedback'. I also have a Thor A12 surge board with dynamic sinewave tracking in my lounge system and it works a treat, but you'll notice Thor also make fancier filters for those less budget conscious that look very interesting.

www.thortechnologies.com.au/

I've built a couple of balanced 240V supplies too using twin transformers 12-0-12 30VA encapsulated types and larger 9-0-9 300VA toroidal types wired back to back to kill ground mode noise BUT great care is needed to implement these successfully, and although they can work great in reducing the noise floor, particularly with DACs, allowing masked detail to surface, they can degrade sonics elsewhere and I've yet to conquer these deficiencies to my satisfaction and have put them aside for the time being.

The DIY RFI filter design is copied from audio lunatic Lukas Ficus aka "Lampizator" but to give him his dues, to my ears, and that of a mate well known for establishing the "Eichmann" company who tested my initial prototype and then built some, they do a great job of removing AC noise.

www.lampizator.eu/AC%20FILTER/SILK/FILTER.HTML

cheers..jeffc

[XTRProf]

Jul 22, 2010 12:13:47 GMT jeffc said:

I've built a couple of balanced 240V supplies too using twin transformers 12-0-12 30VA encapsulated types and larger 9-0-9 300VA toroidal types wired back to back to kill ground mode noise BUT great care is needed to implement these successfully, and although they can work great in reducing the noise floor, particularly with DACs, allowing masked detail to surface, they can degrade sonics elsewhere and I've yet to conquer these deficiencies to my satisfaction and have put them aside for the time being.

Ah, I see that you had heard the deficiencies of the balanced power supply too.

Jul 22, 2010 12:13:47 GMT jeffc said:

www.lampizator.eu/AC%20FILTER/SILK/FILTER.HTML

Actually that circuit is the basic framework for an AC filtering conditioner. I don't see why he must take the credit when it's just basic noise filtering from technical notes.

I have something like that MIC before but found that the Oyaide Tunami cable gives the best result overall. KISS is again the acronym for the best sound.

[XTRProf]

Jul 22, 2010 2:39:15 GMT @sandyk said:

Jul 22, 2010 2:14:51 GMT XTRProf said:

I'm a KISS fellow and don't believe in adding more to the system. I have not compared a system with UPS and a system without although I had heard a very high end system with a PS Audio regenerator before. But I always favour a nice power cable (like Oyaide Tunami) with simple build in RF suppressor over an AC filtered conditioner anytime. The sound is just more dynamic and alive with the music flowing.

I had an embarassing experience many stars ago in a listening session. The host was boasting how a balanced power supply had enhanced the sound quality of his system. I dunno whether he had compared it after he had built the balance power supply. However, when one member of the invited cohorts asked for a comparison with and without the balance power supply, the without blew the balance away. The music was just so much more engaging, flowing, with more dynamics and much less hf annoyance. After this, the balance power supply, at 2KVA transformer, was not longer to be sighted during a revisit for other things. Of course, your system must be hirez enough to hear it properly.

So KISS does work .......... Our beloved Rick also believed in this when he talked about whether to use JLH or not some time back if you can recall .........

XTRProf
You can KISS my ass !
Sorry, but I disagree with you now, as I often disagreed with Rick back then. There are numerous reports of improvements when using a JLH, even from Mike.

P.S.
Guess what happens without a protective filter if you get a MUCH higher than normal mains supply voltage for more than a few seconds ?

You are free to disagree and KISS my ass too But I respect Rick's views just as many others too. I'm very very confident he had done more research on this matter than you did.

KISS whatever you want to KISS ........... Heh, heh, heh .........

Oh boy, in Singapore we are promised +/- 5 % AC variation by the PUB. Anyway, I had measured my location AC and it's dead on 230 VAC for various time of the day. ;D ;D

[Deleted]

Here you are..
For the DIY guys... and also perhaps for those with less DIY experience.

a ready made HQ filter... just add 2 of the 275V Varistors on the input (one from Live to Neutral and 1 from Neutral to ground) make a nice box for it and you have a GREAT 6A (1400 W) filter.
Guaranteed to work extremely well !

nl.farnell.com/tyco-electronics-corcom/6emc1/filter-6a-1-phase/dp/9586466 (filter)
nl.farnell.com/epcos/b72225s4271k101/varistor-20ka-10-275v/dp/1511735 (varistor)

for well under 100 Euros you have TOP NOTCH line filtering WITH high capacity surge protectors.

On the above mentioned Lampizator filter the MOV (varistor) is connected only from L to N on the output.

If they had performed real EMC tests (like I do for my work on a regular basis) they would know better and mount it on the input AND add another one from Neutral to GND.
a lightning strike close-by can still destroy the expensive equipment behind the Lampizator filter.

[Deleted]

Jul 21, 2010 23:07:35 GMT @sandyk said:

Jul 21, 2010 22:50:09 GMT @davek said:

Hi Guys,
FWIW for over a year now I have used a 1500vA APS Smart UPS to supply all my audio and AV kit, including a 40" HD Sony LCD TV and the Sky HD box. I cannot argue with or counter Sandyk or Frans' technical knowledge of this matter but I strongly believed that it improved both the hi-fi sound and the TV picture.
I chose to do this after reading on another audio forum from a guy who recommended it after doing the same himself.
Like I said, FWIW .
Dave

Dave
Frans has already answered this in a recent post. Even without sine wave regeneration, they will almost certainly have better mains filtering and protective devices like VDRs to help reduce mains rubbish.
A high quality mains filter will also give similar results to a non sine wave regenerating UPS. I use a good quality mains filter with VDRs to supply my AV gear.
Alex

Hi Alex,
Yes, I recall Frans' post where he said this - it may well have been posted in response to an earlier post by me on a similar subject . I threw my comments back into this thread because I thought that it might contribute a little to the discussion. If I think it helps the SQ (whilst as a bonus adding some element of electrical protection) then nothing else really matters. I am convinced that human ears, brains and the communication between the two are so complex and variable that, when it comes to assessing relatively subtle nuances of music reproduction, there are likely to be as many varying opinions as there are people giving them.
Put another way, whilst the sound hitting the outer ear may be identical, by the time it's been bounced around the ear 'flap' and down the ear passage, through the complex inner ear and turned into some sort of signal that the brain interprets as music, different people will 'hear' different things - IMHO of course
Dave.

[Deleted]

This is an interesting subject that deserves it's own thread !

Very debatable subject:
HOW do we hear and interpret sounds.
ofcoarse books have been written about it but audiophiles (audiofools?) all have different views/theories based on their own interpretation.
everyone has an opinion and the subject is not technical (electrical) so many can join.

Alex.. Mike ? ... a new thread maybe ?
Not going to start one if nobody sees the point of it.

[rowuk]

Jul 22, 2010 19:25:13 GMT @solderdude said:

This is an interesting subject that deserves it's own thread !

Very debatable subject:
HOW do we hear and interpret sounds.
ofcoarse books have been written about it but audiophiles (audiofools?) all have different views/theories based on their own interpretation.
everyone has an opinion and the subject is not technical (electrical) so many can join.

Alex.. Mike ? ... a new thread maybe ?
Not going to start one if nobody sees the point of it.

The science and art of hearing can be dealt with in a very complex way. Wait until the golden ears discover that like being right or left handed, each ear has different functions too. They are not like 2 microphones attached to the brain............Many things reported as audible show how powerful the brain is in making assholes out of us.

[Deleted]

Exactly..

That's why a separate thread may be of value !
Really interesting stuff .... this hearing/brain thing.
I think the difference in hearing/perception of people is much greater then the differences in amps.