Can a UPS enhance hearing experience?

[Deleted]

DIY linefilters are great... but what about standard UPS?

I would hope that a design such as Jeff posted would outperform that in a typical non regenerating UPS.
Added to that are series relay contacts in the mains supply to the load.
It would also come down to how well the UPS is implemented and the
current rating of the wiring used internally ? I presume that this would also result in an additional mains plug and socket in the line ?
(Yes, I realise that you would normally have that with a DIY filter too.)
Alex

[Deleted]

Jeff,

Very interesting stuff, is it capable of filtering out local mains borne nasties, e.g. from fridge motors switching on?

Chris

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2010 11:51:47 GMT @cjarchez said:

Jeff,

Very interesting stuff, is it capable of filtering out local mains borne nasties, e.g. from fridge motors switching on?

Chris

Chris
You can often reduce the severity of that problem with those plug in suppressors at the same power point as the refrigerator.
Perhaps even a 275VAC Varistor wired between Active and Neutral of a double adaptor plugged into the socket?
If you have a spare double adaptor it should cost only around $2 to try.
(Unless you live in Spain ! )

Alex

[elysion]

Jul 25, 2010 10:32:08 GMT @sandyk said:

I would hope that a design such as Jeff posted would outperform that in a typical non regenerating UPS.

Originally, the thread was about UPS that do regenerate the sine-wave. I don't care about UPS that don't regenerate the sine-wave. I think sine-wave regenerating is a big plus.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2010 12:50:19 GMT elysion said:

Jul 25, 2010 10:32:08 GMT @sandyk said:

I would hope that a design such as Jeff posted would outperform that in a typical non regenerating UPS.

Originally, the thread was about UPS that do regenerate the sine-wave. I don't care about UPS that don't regenerate the sine-wave. I think sine-wave regenerating is a big plus.

They are still only as good as the glorified internal power amplifier, and it's response to sudden heavy demands. Otherwise dynamics will suffer.
They are probably best used with relatively constant loads , and not too heavily loaded where audio is concerned.
When used to supply a PC, the PC's internal SMPS should compensate for any voltage shortcomings due to HDD activity etc.

[elysion]

I have rather constant loads and enough headroom in UPS capacity. Even with all connected gear on I have still 15-20% reserves.

I don't think of UPS's as universal solution. But they can solve a lot of power related problems easily. Availability and prices are also very good and you can choose from lots of models/manufacturers.

One problem, that I have pointed out earlier in this thread, is that you can't get full-featured sine-wave regenerating UPS's for low power demands (no one is asking for them so no one sells them).

There are even UPS's that are especially designed for audio purposes. I have mentioned this also earlier in this thread.

Furman sells such products:
www.furmansound.com/

[Deleted]

@ Chris,

IF possible you should de-spike the source locally as Alex suggested.
One 275V or 300V MOV(varistor) from L to N and one from N to ground) at the fridge or other sources of nasties.
If this is not possible (nasties from the neighboors or whatever you can't reach/filter) you can use a good mains filter (like the one I suggested) or any other GOOD filter that filters both common and differential mode signals !

Also if you want to get rid of those 'clicks' on the mains the trick with minimizing the leak currents of each individual thing in the audiochain can often completely eliminate those 'nastyies' even WITHOUT extra filtering.
I described what to do some posts earlier.

I agree with Alex on this subject (filtering does the most)
Although I can't argue with Elysion that a good UPS (with a true sinewave generator that always provides the output power) will have the edge on merely good filtering.

You'll have to choose a UPS with care because a lot of PC UPS's just bypass themselves when there is mains power and only work on their internal generator when the mains voltage is too low or gone.
THIS is often NOT mentioned in the specs.
There are UPS (more expensive ones) where the output always comes from their internal generator but are like Alex states intended for PC's and their generator often does NOT produce a real sinewave but an approximation, most manufacturers mention sinewave but it is not in 90% of the cases.

Only an oscilloscope or the service department of the vendor can tell... even the sellers themselves or their representatives often do NOT know the exact topolgy of the UPS and just tell you what you want to hear. (just like the sellers of the Bravo Indeed thingies )

If it gives a world of improvement and even more improvement then good quality line filtering is solely dependant on the way the power is generated.
IF it comes from a good generator the output power is very clean and is probably cleaner and more stable then the mains.
Too bad all the SMPS that are connected to it foul up this nice clean power if not filtered correctly.

How stable must the mains power be ?

Every audiogear nowadays has switch mode power supplies and if not well stabilised internal power supplies that can easily bridge varying input voltages of at least 10%.
Even a lot of the better power amps have their voltage amplifier fed with a stablised voltage.
This leaves filtering to be most important IMO

< edit> Ohh forgot to mention and VERY important.

NEVER route wires close together that are filtered and unfiltered !
The capacitive coupling of these wires (by routing them all neatly close together) can completely or mostly undo the good work the filter has done (except for the surge protection).
So when building a filter yourself always separate the input and output wiring of a filter and do not lead the filtered wires away next to the input wiring !

[Deleted]

Alex and Frans,

thanks for the info! I'll give it a whirl and see if it does the trick.

Chris.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2010 14:23:03 GMT @solderdude said:

@ Chris,
One 275V or 300V MOV(varistor) from L to N and one from N to ground) at the fridge or other sources of nasties.

Hi Frans,
I'm having a 4 + 1 Hydra put together for me using good quality bits (Schurter etc) - would adding varistors as above, if there's room , be beneficial in your opinion?
Dave.

[Deleted]

It won't hurt in any case if you do fit them.
You will only have 2 fit 2 of them at the input of the filter.

a nearby lightning strike will still destroy these parts and everything behind it.

Nasty Surges will be limited by the MOV's

[mrarroyo]

You guys are taking this way too seriously and need to chill ...

[Deleted]

Thnx...

You know how to chill !

[robertkd]

Well lets have a look at what we are attempting.

Firstly most if not all ups provide some form of mains filtering. The quality and effectiveness does vary with make and model.

Second Most ups's are line interactive, that is mains in, some sort of filtering mains out and when mains fails the "load" side is switched to an inverter.

Ok there are 2 general perhaps 3 types
square wave (work fine for switch mode psu's)

modified (stepped) square wave works for SMPSU's and possibly transformer PSU's

sine wave These are the ones we are interested in for audio, these are uaually specked with of all things VA (volt amp) i.e. effective capacity and distortion of the sine wave output

from here we have dual conversion now these puppies with low distortion sine wave are where it's at, why, well it's the way they are configured, these units are always active as follows,...

AC mains input is rectified to charge a battery bank this provides a level of isolation form the mains borne noise (usually also incorporate mains filtering)

The DC from the batteries is then converted to an AC sine wave.


So dual conversion with quality mains filtering and low distortion AC sine wave is the go for clean power.

What difference will it make alas depends on the mains wiring and the quality of the equipment power supplies, in some cases yes, in a majority the simple addition of good mains filtering might be sufficient.