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Post by johnwillett on Aug 3, 2011 12:42:11 GMT
Not sure what you mean by "the DF"? I come to headphones (and loudspeakers) asking the question "are they a realistic interpretation of the source?". I don't want them to sound "good" or "great" or whatever - I want them to accurately reproduce what is put into them. So - using 24/96 master recordings and CDs that I recorded myself as the source I found that the HD 800 (through my Grace m902b) gave me the most accurate rendition of the original. Listening to very recent recordings I sound the sound was pretty identical to what I had heard with my ears when I set up the microphones to make the recording in the first place. Though I suppose we are getting off the subject, talking about the 800 in a 2650 thread - sorry.
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Aug 4, 2011 0:21:52 GMT
"DF" = K240 DF
Sorry for the confusion...
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Post by padam on Aug 8, 2011 21:56:20 GMT
Something that annoyed me about the stock HD250 II was the flimsy cable. I admit I have seen worse but still something Sennheiser should be ashamed of. I replaced the stock cable with a HD650 cable but I am not sure yet if I will keep it that way. What do you think of the stock cable? I am using a balanced APS V3 cable on mine I bought used, considerably more refined and open (very open, in fact) than the stock or HD650 cable but I am not sure everybody would like this change, refined does not necessarily mean better. Since the value is debatable and it is not fair comparing balanced with SE and I am short on cables anyway I will probably try a balanced mogami or similar to see how they compare, although the Cardas connectors are not cheap so I might just re-terminate a HD650 cable and use that for comparison since it is a lot cheaper. But amplification is more important, these headphones do like power to gain control in the bass which increases the clarity. I quite like them with the CEC HD53N, very airy, smooth and detailed if slightly lacking in bass punch. I hope one day I can hear it with a balanced Beta22 which should perform even better. The 600 ohm Linear I probably needs even more power than the II. I just decided to try them with this balanced cable after not listening to them for months and now they almost equal the Linear II I use in terms of bass extension although the sound is still different, a tad 'lighter' and more diffused, maybe more even in the midrange but less fun. This is with a Linear II headband, original one is a bit loose for me and I couldn't tighten it up. Interestingly the old documents say 10-25000 Hz with 3db matching for the Linear II and 10-25000 Hz with 0db matching for the Linear I. I could not find much about the 300 ohm version of the Linear I, I guess it is quite rare even by HD250 standards.
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Post by johnwillett on Aug 9, 2011 16:54:43 GMT
Interestingly the old documents say 10-25000 Hz with 3db matching for the Linear II and 10-25000 Hz with 0db matching for the Linear I. I could not find much about the 300 ohm version of the Linear I, I guess it is quite rare even by HD250 standards. Interesting - Sennheiser Germany told me that the 250 Mk.I and Mk.II are absolutely identical other than the design of the outside of the earcup.
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Aug 10, 2011 12:27:23 GMT
Versions, versions, versions...
By the way, the HD250 II is no keeper for me. It is a good headphone but the slightly recessed midrange is not to my liking. I have to decrease the headphone collection anyway.
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Post by padam on Aug 12, 2011 22:06:34 GMT
Sure it is not a phone with a forward midrange but it is not That recessed (at least here anyway) and most closed headphones are no better or even if they are they fail on other aspects (bass & high extension, soundstage) I am about to buy another pair and I have no idea which one it is. And I don't care so much either because the system changed so much that I think I am interested even in the last and supposedly roughest sounding version it does not necessarily mean worse for me (it might be the opposite!). Also the pair I like the most might not be liked so much by others because the L/R volume is not matched but it is actually match my hearing imbalance so it is easier to use for me. I borrowed a Lavry DA10 for a few days and it is again a different sound it helps the HD250II to sound smoother and more balanced than they used to. The thing is, with all these changes while the HD250II becomes more refined there is the 'fun' factor which is also a reduced somewhat. So maybe I will try to go in the backwards direction because for a different sound character it is easier to get a phone that is like that by default (e.g. an SR-007). I might try the Cardas cable some time in the future it might be more faithful to the original sound but improving the technical stuff. I tried the HD800 today with the CEC and yes it is substantially more refined and linear than the HD250II (Linear) but also not as much fun sometimes and the price difference is striking. There is a phone I would like to compare it against in the future and it is the Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro (of course it is also controversial which version is the best from these, several impedance ratings as well so I hope I get a good example otherwise the HD250II win but is that bad? ). Both have isolation, both are circumaural and both are diffuse field equalized with a slightly V-shaped sound. The friend who brought the HD800 to me is also debating between the two closed phones, he is not sure about which one to sell (but he admits the DT770 is much easier to find again)
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Aug 13, 2011 23:47:07 GMT
Some recordings reveal the midrange, some do not. I prefer my DF.
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Post by padam on Sept 3, 2011 17:08:48 GMT
Got a HD600 today. Difficult to say which one is better of the two. The HD250II has a bit more precise separation with more depth to the sound, and of course better extension especially in the bass. On the downside it suffers from the closed-back reflections and the midrange is more natural on the HD600. I should add that I have the newer version of these, I heard an earlier HD580 Jubilee and it did not sound as good as this HD600 (more veiled).
So far I only used the Lavry DA11 hp out for comparison, will try the CEC later.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Sept 3, 2011 20:24:49 GMT
Perhaps because they have not the same driver variants. There has been a change to the drivers (we discussed that in another thread already). The older drivers sound "veiled", the newer drivers don't.
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Post by padam on Sept 3, 2011 21:24:58 GMT
Yes the HD580 Jubilee is a better matched HD580 so pretty much exactly the same as the early version HD600 which is not as good as the white screen HD600 So anyway I find myself liking the HD600s even though they can be considered as 'mediocre' on a lot of aspects, what they do they do it very well.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Sept 3, 2011 21:39:15 GMT
Perhaps that's exactly what makes them special. Ian told us something similar about the DT 990 Pro's. They are unobtrusive, nothing is too extreme and they sound good with most music. The HD650's are IMO also in that club.
I'm curious how the HD250 Linear II's compete against the DT 990 Pro's. I hope Mike will tell us about that soon.
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Post by padam on Sept 3, 2011 22:02:01 GMT
The HD650 makes everything warm (good for someone who likes living in a world like that) and the DT990 is too U-shaped, quite aggressive with recessed mids. At least the new one, the old vintage version is vastly different, pretty nice headphone. There said to be a new version HD650 as well but I guess it is still better but still more "hifi" type of sound compared to the HD600.
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leo
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Post by leo on Sept 3, 2011 23:21:45 GMT
Borrowing a pair of HD800's, must admit I really like these cans and appreciate what they do , to my ears they are extremely neutral and dig out the detail. They don't have the bass or HF extension of the 250 mk2, I imagine some may find them to lack the sheer drama and excitement the HD250 mk2's bring with some recordings, some of course will prefer the more neutral 800's. Like the 250 mk2 they need to be partnered with good quality amps and sources, I can imagine them to sound bad if not, they don't add a heavy signature/glaze I heard when listening to the HD650, personally cannot stand those cans just my opinion
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Post by padam on Sept 3, 2011 23:41:19 GMT
The HD800 is very good (I heard it again today when I got the HD600 with Benchmark DAC1 and CEC HD53N or built class A hp amp) the weak point is the midrange (not instrumental). Not nearly to the same extent as with the HD250IIs but still has that 'familiar laid back' character - at least the way I heard it, let's suppose there is a system where this is not there - the HD600 seemed to be a bit better at reproducing human voices but of course not as good at other technical things.
Pity I do not listen to vinyl because for whatever reason, as Colin wrote earlier vinyl (or in some cases very well digitized vinyl) sound superb on the HD250IIs.
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leo
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Post by leo on Sept 3, 2011 23:55:52 GMT
I found the added midrange signature/ thickness from the HD650's quite annoying, I find both my vinyl and digital sounds great with the 250's and 800's, with the 650's it doesn't get my feet tapping. Its been a while since I heard the HD600's but seem to remember the midrange signature/thickness wasn't as heavy, maybe they over done it with the 650's?
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Sept 4, 2011 12:13:38 GMT
Leo, I found the HD800 to be superb provided they are fed from top tier amp/source. Unfortunately I found the HD800 to perform just OK from a typical amp/source which means the user would have to spend a lot of money to make the HD800 sing. Specifically I found the HD800 to perform best out of a Luxman P1 headphone amp which retails for about $2,500 USD and I was not willing to spend that kind of money just for the HD800. If the P1 is used the HD800 blows the HD600/650 out of the water on a side by side comparison. Attachments:
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Post by padam on Sept 4, 2011 17:15:58 GMT
Leo, I found the HD800 to be superb provided they are fed from top tier amp/source. Unfortunately I found the HD800 to perform just OK from a typical amp/source which means the user would have to spend a lot of money to make the HD800 sing. Specifically I found the HD800 to perform best out of a Luxman P1 headphone amp which retails for about $2,500 USD and I was not willing to spend that kind of money just for the HD800. If the P1 is used the HD800 blows the HD600/650 out of the water on a side by side comparison. The level of the components the HD800 was used it were good enough, it did change the sound with different components but that character always remained to an extent. I find the new version HD600 very balanced even if the technical attributes are not amazing so I am looking for a headphone that is similar to this headphone only on a higher level (e.g. faster like the HD250II). The HD800 is not that unfortunately.
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Sept 5, 2011 12:56:23 GMT
Padam, just a thought but if my HD250 II had at least the midrange of my AKG K400 I would have kept it.
If you want something else and the HD800 does not convince you the once famed Sony CD-series are interesting. You might have read it, you might not but as good as the HD800 is it seems overpriced if you consider headphones like the Sony CD1700 i.m.h.o and experience. You could go another route and try a DT48 but that headphone is quite polarising and finding the fit, seal and amplification settings takes some time.
Good luck though...
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Sept 5, 2011 17:15:58 GMT
Maybe you should have a closer look at the DT 990 Pro's. They have a lot in common with the HD600/650's. Ian has described them as a "cross between a HD600 and a DT770". I agree with that conclusion.
The Senn's (HD580/600/650) also share something else with the Beyer's (at least the DT 770/990 Pro's): All these 'phones have diffuse-field (loudness) equalisation. I don't know all 'phones that have this feature, but not all 'phones have that.
I don't want to hype the DT 990 Pro's specifically, but IMO they fill a gap. I've searched better 'phones than my K702's (too toppy, bass shy), HD580/650's (better bass, but a bit missing in the treble).
Personally, I'm very curious what possibly upcoming Beyer T90's could do. They have already the T70's out, but they are more like a successor to the 770's. The T70's have "tesla drivers" with 250 Ohm's (unlike the T1, which has 600 Ohm's).
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Post by johnwillett on Sept 9, 2011 9:21:15 GMT
Borrowing a pair of HD800's, must admit I really like these cans and appreciate what they do , to my ears they are extremely neutral and dig out the detail. They don't have the bass or HF extension of the 250 mk2, I imagine some may find them to lack the sheer drama and excitement the HD250 mk2's bring with some recordings, some of course will prefer the more neutral 800's. Like the 250 mk2 they need to be partnered with good quality amps and sources, I can imagine them to sound bad if not, they don't add a heavy signature/glaze I heard when listening to the HD650, personally cannot stand those cans just my opinion Actually the HD 800 have superb bass and it goes very low. But it's natural and not hyped in any way. I swapped over to the HD 800 as my main monitoring headphones when they first came out as they are so neutral, accurate and revealing. I just wish Sennheiser would do closed headphones as well with the same driver technology.
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Post by johnwillett on Sept 9, 2011 9:24:36 GMT
Leo, I found the HD800 to be superb provided they are fed from top tier amp/source. Unfortunately I found the HD800 to perform just OK from a typical amp/source which means the user would have to spend a lot of money to make the HD800 sing. Specifically I found the HD800 to perform best out of a Luxman P1 headphone amp which retails for about $2,500 USD and I was not willing to spend that kind of money just for the HD800. If the P1 is used the HD800 blows the HD600/650 out of the water on a side by side comparison. I agree in, some ways, that they need a good amp. - I use my HD 800 with the Grace m902b which is about half the price of the Luxman in the USA. They also work well with the Lehmann Black Cube and the DACS Clarity HeadMaster at lower prices.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Sept 9, 2011 11:04:15 GMT
Leo, I found the HD800 to be superb provided they are fed from top tier amp/source. Unfortunately I found the HD800 to perform just OK from a typical amp/source which means the user would have to spend a lot of money to make the HD800 sing. Specifically I found the HD800 to perform best out of a Luxman P1 headphone amp which retails for about $2,500 USD and I was not willing to spend that kind of money just for the HD800. If the P1 is used the HD800 blows the HD600/650 out of the water on a side by side comparison. I agree in, some ways, that they need a good amp. - I use my HD 800 with the Grace m902b which is about half the price of the Luxman in the USA. They also work well with the Lehmann Black Cube and the DACS Clarity HeadMaster at lower prices. The HD800's should also work very well with the Neco MOSFET/BOSSFET amp. I have the MOSFET and the BOSSFET amps and it's a match made in heaven with 300 Ohm Senn's (like the HD580's and HD650's I have). Another Rock-Grotto member (Mick) has both the Neco MOSFET and the HD800's. I've asked him to test the HD800's with the MOSFET amp a while ago. He told me that the SQ is on par with the Panda amp. The Neco's have a very low output impedance (around 2-3 Ohm) and this seems to be very beneficial with headphones in the 250-300 Ohm range. I've made also good experiences with the 250 Ohm Beyer's and the Neco's. BTW: The Neco BOSSFET is IMO a bargain if compared to amps like the Lehmann Black Cube or the Grace m902b. Unfortunately, I can't compare since I don't have the HD800's and the Lehmann/Grace amp. Both the HD800's and the Lehmann/Grace amps are also beyond my budget.
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Post by padam on Sept 12, 2011 21:45:07 GMT
Some recordings reveal the midrange, some do not. I prefer my DF. I have got a DF from a local friend of mine. Yes it has very good, inviting midrange. If I calibrate myself to it, it is a nice listen. But beyond that, it gives very little technically. Just not nearly as clear dynamic, open or extended as the HD250II, does not scale as well when plugged into a source like the Lavry. For this type of sound, the Stax SR-5NB gold is better as it has the clarity and speed etc. (but of course needs a separate amp/adapter) The HD250IIs seem to be harder to drive than the HD600 at least the Lavry built-in amp does a very good job with the latter but with the HD250II I feel there could be more driving power and the bass is not that controlled or punchy. The CEC (that I sold) does have that in balanced mode, so better bass control is there, but the synergy is not very good and it becomes softer than I'd like. So far my friend's class A discrete speaker amp plus resistor adapter which gave the best sound out of the HD250II.
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Sept 13, 2011 7:55:41 GMT
I found the HD250 II to sound more dynamic. Extension with the DF depends on the amplification since it needs serious power. I really need to get my Sansui running again.
Thanks for the Stax suggestion...
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Dec 16, 2011 0:29:10 GMT
The first HD250 II I passed on. Today I bought a second one and this one is a keeper.
This is one of the best headphones I tried. Revealing and musical without sounding dry or veiled. Time to sleep...
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