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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2010 23:43:34 GMT
Found the impedance graph of the HD250 II.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2010 23:45:06 GMT
A later frequency response (2005), somewhat different.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2010 0:02:36 GMT
Impedance graph looks very good actually. No obvious dealbraking resonances and a wide spread LF hump. This shows a 'clean' sound quality.
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xerxes
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Post by xerxes on Dec 12, 2010 2:06:17 GMT
Oh look, greener grass!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2010 2:17:20 GMT
Oh look, greener grass! Does it come in little resealable plastic bags ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2010 17:44:31 GMT
Mike, if you want rid of them, let me know. I have a home for them!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2010 18:34:32 GMT
For those that think graphs can tell you something.. Here is a graph of the HD250-II (red and blue = HD250-II) and HD650 (black line) together. Notice the 'sucked out' low to mid-lows, which make the HD650 sound comparably 'warm' compared to the HD250-II or makes the HD250 sound more open and less muddy compared to the HD650. Also notice the lack of highs in the H650 and the surplus of highs in the HD250-II They do have a lot of typical Sennheiser similarities too so it appears. a fun experiment for HD650 owners (it's all about fun with headphones right ?). Lower the EQ settings of your HD600/HD650 between 50Hz and 200Hz by about 5 dB and 315 Hz -2 dB, increase the range between 6kHz and 13kHz by 6dB.
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xerxes
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Post by xerxes on Dec 12, 2010 19:32:12 GMT
How?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2010 20:06:37 GMT
PC... soundcard... mediaplayer program with equaliser.. some music It's just meant as an excercise... for the fun of it..
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Post by colinb on Dec 13, 2010 13:58:00 GMT
Hi Mike, Sorry for the delay in replying, - wanted to reply the other night but the forum was in “maintenance mode” and I coulnd’t post! Totally agree with you on the HD250II, - really everything else sound anaemic in comparison. Something about the bass and dynamics are just proper, - more like listening to a very full range pair of well set up speakers in that regard than you get from any other headphone. There is a lot of variation in examples from my experience of having had quite a lot of them. Its not just about bass rich or bass shy, - for example some pairs I have had have more silibant highs/audible distortion than other pairs, and different levels of midrange prominence (some are too sucked out for my liking), so it will be very interesting to hear how you get on with the 3 ones you bought compared to the two you've already heard. If the Russian ones do seem to be a nice batch I’ll get one too no doubt! I have not had any two examples before I know for sure came for the same batch but with this Russian ones its quite likely they are from the same batch. Franz, I am still not sure about that second FR graph, - the low bass still looks at too low a level to me compared to what I am hearing form these phones. I think with theses phones they tested there could be sealing issue (maybe pad sealing) or something that cause the test graph to look different from how the headphones perform on someone's ears. I am sure the lower bass output on my phones is higher in volume than this graph suggests. With 20Hz-30Hz test tones I can" feel" the high output very strongly. This headphone does have strong output down that low and I believe it has that very low peak you talked about (whereas the HD6** series has the peak much higher up you can clearly see on the FR graph). And I am also pretty sure there is no lower mid 300Hz peak on the pairs I have. If there was I am sure I would hear it and it would bother me. But yeah that graph does not quite look the headphone I am hearing where I can feel the bass through my toes. There is for a sure another issue with this phone, - concerning some peoples head/neck shape we have not touched on here before. I spoke by PM to a chap the other day who just bought a pair of these recently who was having trouble with the sound. He could not get good bass and found this highs shrill and sibiliant. He noticed that when he pressed the cups against his ears more it produced a much better seal and the bass became superb and the sound much better. Another friend of mine who tried them had the same problem. Some people seem to have a neck that goes in a lot more than other people behind and below the ear and I think it compromises the pad sealing. I do not have this problem when I press the cups against my ears there is no difference. So perhaps this phone only works well with people who get a good pad seal. The pads seal is essential to get good sound from these headphones, its much more critical the other headphones I have tried. I am not sure what he could do, - maybe try some different pads (if they could be made to fit OK) possibly ones with a asymmetric shape try to get the pad sealing better. Perhaps there might be another day to better the seal (any suggestion?). It is possible to increase the clamping force by heating the headband carefully with a hairdyer and forcing it into a different shape when its cooling. But there might not be an ideal solution with someone whos head shape creates a pad sealing issue with these these phones. This is a separate issue form the variation in driver sound I was talking about, - you can still get pairs with some drivers that sound more bassy than others. Anyone wants to test if they are getting a good pad seal the test is simple, - put the cans on an listen and then lightly bush the cups with your hands to clamp/seal more and see if there is any different in sound. If there is none you have a good seal naturally and all is OK. Cheers, Colin I agree re: the HD-600 / HD-650.... before the arrival of the HD-250ll linear I thought the HD-650 were the best things since sliced bread. I just cannot listen to them now, it's as if they have no bass at all... almost as if someone has hoovered it right out of the equation. In fact, the HD-250ll linear's have put me off ALL of my headphones. They were with me for two days, on day three I put my ATH W-1000, HD-600 and AKG-K701 up for sale. I thought all three sounded absolutely "lifeless" in comparison to the HD-250ll Linear, really pale and anaemic. I hate droning on about the "bass" over and over again but, quite simply, the HD-250ll are the ONLY pair of headphones I have heard that can DO bass "realistically".... on a bass rich track they will make your toenails curl up. Not "bloated" bass, not "over emphasised" bass, not "boomy" bass...... just "proper" bass, the way bass should be... as I say, natural sounding (when it goes low it digs into the earth and you can almost FEEL it) . Colin, I also listen to the Organ (Nigel Ogden radio 2 is great) mostly Phil kelsal and Reg Dickson type stuff Yup, I can understand why you love the HD-250ll Linear's so much, they give great insight (accurate insight) into how a real organ actually sounds in the bottom octaves. It's not ALL about the bass though, the mids are very articulate and detailed and the tops are also quite realistic, not overly "smooth" or "harsh"... just right... the rasp of a muted trumpet RASPS as it should, there is no smoothing over.... I could waffle on all night about them. To my ears they are what I have been searching for in a pair of headphones, for many years... a pair of headphones with REAL bass (I said the "B" word again ) and bass that ONLY kicks in when it should ( if it's on the recording).... not like a car boot "boom box" which thuds away 24/7 I urge anyone with a pair of these to listen to Yello (The Eye) try the track "Junior B" with all your other headphones and then have a listen with the HD-250ll Linear If you don't exclaim "HOLY FIG" when you hear the extension in that opening few bars then you must have corks implanted in your lugholes. There are very few tracks, very few recordings, where the bass capabilities of the HD-250ll are TRULY revealed but this is one of the golden tracks that clearly show they are the best "if it's on the recording I'll reveal that bass as it should be revealed" pair of headphones on the PLANET! After selling off my "prized headphones" I (wrongly) thought that there must have been something wrong with my Sennheiser HD-600 (they had been my reference point for years).... I even posted to the effect that I thought the "bass" had disappeared through years of heavy usage. Play.com had one of their "daily offers" on and a few of us here got a brand new pair for £99 GBP shipped.... They arrived and I was glad to see them back at the Pink Ranchero.... I gave them a good leathering (a good thrashing) for 48 hours and sat down for a listen.... my first thought was "where's the bass!?".... I just couldn't listen to them! The HD-250ll Linear's have TOTALLY spoilt me and (I'll say it again) once you've experienced that "bass" there really is no going back to these airy fairy sounding headphones like the K-701 / HD-600 / SR-225 / W-1000 etc. etc. etc. Sure, you can spend a few hours listening to them and get used to them (your mind soon adjusts) but as soon as you go back to the HD-250ll Linear's that "energy" descends on you like a ton of bricks and you just KNOW this is how a pair of headphones "should" sound like The HD-250ll Linear were, for me, a true revelation... a truly jaw dropping "Holy Fig" moment.... a never before experienced moment. Colin, I can fully understand why you have many pairs of them. If my pair packed in I would give up headphone listening (Full stop)..... The thought of having to listen to my music through a pair of these airy fairy, so called "high end" 'phones is a fate worse than life itself. I am slowly "releasing" my headphone armoury (quite extensive) to the market and will replace with HD-250ll (as and when)..... To be honest, I have only heard TWO pairs and both have been spot on.... I haven't been party to these "odd sounding" HD-250ll's that a few people have reported exist..... I just hope the 3 pairs I have ordered (two new, one secondhand) will be enough to see me through my lifetime and be the "bass rich" variety. Jesus, I'm almost 50 so ONE pair should see me out to the finishing point Anybody want to buy a BRAND new pair of HD-600 (boxed) for £99 shipped? Mike.
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Post by colinb on Dec 13, 2010 16:45:40 GMT
Hey Mike, Thanks for the Reg Dixon clips. Yes no one plays "oh I do like to be beside the seaside" in quite the same bouncy way he did. I was talking more about church organs with regard to deep bass rather the Wurlitzers/Theatre Organs. In general you will only find church Organ that have 32ft pipes and bass that can extend down to 16Hz or lower. I play the church Organ myself. Only the HD250IIs reproduces the low frequencies in a similar way to being at a big venue playing a decent Organ that has seriously deep and resonating bass. I can't find anything that amazing sound wise for church organs clips with very deep bass on Youtube. Might upload some demo stuff of organ recordings that I know have very deep bass to for people to hear, but for now this clip is not too bad. This is the 5th largest Organ in the world, - the Willis III organ at Liverpool Cathedral. Has some deep bass at the beginning and towards the end but like i say its by no means the deepest bass in organ recordings I've heard. So bear in mind its a very small taster BTW..... A bit of Reg
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 23, 2010 20:32:33 GMT
I received the pair of HD-250ll from Minivan today (thanks MV) and just couldn't believe my ears when I listened to them!
Bloody HORRIBLE compared to my pair of HD-250ll.... so "sparkly" and toppy and the bass? weak and watery.... absolutely 'orrible!
I put my own pair on my head just to check my hearing hadn't gone a bit funny but, nope..... the bass was there in spadeloads.
This is not a subtle difference, this is a HUGE difference! How can two pairs of the same headphone sound so totally different?
I'm going to try fitting my pads onto these and see if it's a "pad" thing.... if not I'm going to strip these down to the barebones and see just what is causing this massive difference.
Mike.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 23, 2010 20:55:12 GMT
No wonder some people love these 'phones and others hate them..... if this pair were my "only" experience of HD-250ll I'd rate them very lowly indeed.... where the Hell is the bass? It's as if someone has sucked it out with a hoover! Most disappointing but it will be fun finding out "why" these sound so different to a "good" pair One thing I am thinking about is pad "age"..... these pads are pretty old whereas mine are relatively new.... one thing I HAVE discovered is that if I press both pads together and push them inwards (like a pair of bellows) there is quite a lot of air escaping out of the crap pair's pads (you can hear "whoosh whoosh whoosh" everytime you press them together (still connected to the headphones).... when I press my own pair together there is more resistance and hardly any air escaping.... this must, surely, make a bit of a difference to the SQ.... Colin, out of all the pairs you tried, did you fit each pair with brand new pads or did you just say to yourself "another dodgy pair"? I'm going to order a new set of pads and see if that cures the problem. As it stands, though, "ouch" these are nothing LIKE the HD-250ll I know and love.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 23, 2010 22:59:34 GMT
Nope... it's NOT the pads! I've spent the last 20 minutes fitting the pads / damping pads etc. from my "good" pair of HD-250 ll onto the "not so good" pair I have received from Minivan..... no difference at all, they still sound like shite compared to my "good" pair of HD-250 ll..... This is astonishing, I cannot believe that two pairs of "identical" headphones can sound so different.... I had read about these variations in HD-250ll but this is the first time I have experienced a bad pair for myself. I won't be able to sleep until I find out what's causing this.... I'm going to dedicate the "entire" day, tomorrow, having a look under the bonnet.... I have an "idea" what's causing the fluctuations but can't be certain until I prod about a bit It's weird having two pairs of the "same" headphone sitting in front of me.... one is a bass meister, the other is a treble junkie....... Yup, word, this "Is" one weird fekkin' pair of headphones
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leo
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Post by leo on Dec 24, 2010 0:08:54 GMT
Odd indeed As you say though, it explains why some dislike these cans. Its one reason I wouldn't spend a lot on a second pair just incase they was duff . Out of interest, do yours or the duff ones have the copper centre rings or silver? If we could find some way of improving the duff ones
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Post by padam on Dec 24, 2010 19:20:39 GMT
I already came up with an idea like that (and Colin wrote it down here earlier), you need to fit new pads but before that, cover the inside holes on the back of them with BluTack or similar, it will make the bass much fuller and deeper.
Reason for that is simple: in the days of the the earlier HD250IIs (before they were 'first' discontinued) the pads that were made had no holes in them at all.
In contrast the newer ones were probably 'designed' together with the newer run of earpads with the hole in it so the mod doesn't work here, the bass is already good without that and will be overpowering with the mod applied.
And I guess that an older version of the pad would still work better than the modded new one if it existed.
Update: that particular pair is not likely to be an earlier one so although the port mod might work to increase the bass it might become too U-shaped.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 24, 2010 19:46:28 GMT
I already came up with an idea like that (and Colin wrote it down here earlier), you need to fit new pads but before that, cover the inside holes on the back of them with BluTack or similar, it will make the bass much fuller and deeper. Reason for that is simple: in the days of the the earlier HD250IIs (before they were 'first' discontinued) the pads that were made had no holes in them at all. In contrast the newer ones were probably 'designed' together with the newer run of earpads with the hole in it so the mod doesn't work here, the bass is already good without that and will be overpowering with the mod applied. And I guess that an older version of the pad would still work better than the modded new one if it existed. Update: that particular pair is not likely to be an earlier one so although the port mod might work to increase the bass it might become too U-shaped. I did a lot on this (second) pair today and it hasn't made a BIT of difference, they are still sounding shrill. The bass has improved "slightly" but nowhere near to my good pair. These are like listening to a pair of Grado's.... I want to rip them off my head after 5 minutes... "spitty", VERY bright and nothing like a good pair of HD-250ll. I glued on a piece of rubber over the hole in the pad (inner tube repair pad) with special plastic glue.... bonded the ports onto the cups, supplemented with bitumen tape.... quite a few other things too (I will upload photos later).... they sound a "bit" better but still very poor in comparison to a "good" pair. Of course, that's according to "my" ears, some people may prefer the brighter presentation but I absolutely detest it
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Post by padam on Dec 24, 2010 20:56:09 GMT
It's a bit strange because I heard about 5 HD250IIs and all of them were capable of producing big and deep bass with new pads fitted, either with or without the earpads hole mod (I did try your type of mods as well but it made little difference compared to the earpad mod) but the best HD250II (like my main pair) is probably one that sounds best with zero modifications because all these always carry some compromises elsewhere.
Do I get right, did you do it with the pads that are worn? The mod only works with brand new pads in my experience.
And about the treble, it was a bit grainy to my ears at times, but since then I upgraded to a Halide Design Bridge acting as a transport before the Parasound DAC, and voila, the problem went away so it is quite sensitive to the source as well (it is a monitor anyway, and a bloody good one of that)
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Post by colinb on Dec 26, 2010 1:54:44 GMT
Hey guys just read up on all this now, - sorry I've been busy the past few days.
Mike I'm sorry to hear about the phones you bought. This really is my experience exactly and why buying any used HD250II is a bit of a gamble. Usually in general you score an OK one, average one, rarely a very very good one, but quite often you also get a poor one like you have now seem to have now.
I compared pads and even other parts on headphone to see where the different is coming from and I think its mainly down the drivers, - for some reason the quality control was never good and there is wild variation. You have seen yourself that the pads do not make a huge different but yeah what Adam says is right, - if you have an older Hd250II (the one with the silver cup rings instead of grey) you MUST cover the pad hole as the silver ringed version needs that covered. Maybe its diaphragm tension and diaphragm quality or something, I am not surel. That shrillness is probably coming from the driver, - its what I experience too, - some drivers just have more audible distortion and shrillness than other examples. Your best best with that (from my experience) is adding another extra damping ring under the pad form (the big white damping ring). Cut one out of some sort of material, - felt or cloth or something like that. Do some experiment to find a material that sounds good. It will help a bit, - reduce the shrillness brightness for sure. But I think its hard to improve the headphone really greatly to get them to sound like a really good pair as the issue is most likely due to the drivers being different somehow.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Dec 26, 2010 2:07:03 GMT
Maybe the "bad" HD250II drivers would sound better if they are placed in the earcups of other headphones.
At least it would be very interesting to see what would change then. The "SFI diy orthos" thread shows that different type of earcups/pads can make a big difference.
If the drivers are really "bad", then the "bad" HD250II would be also candidates for drivers transplants (maybe with those ortho drivers).
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Post by PinkFloyd on Dec 26, 2010 2:18:23 GMT
It's definitely a "driver" thang...... a real shame, if only ALL HD-250's were equal
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Post by colinb on Dec 26, 2010 3:27:38 GMT
I tried transplanting suspected poor sounding driver capsules into known shells that come from a headphone known to sound good and it makes no difference. Its definitely down to the drivers and nothing else unfortunately. Not much you can do about that. Maybe the "bad" HD250II drivers would sound better if they are placed in the earcups of other headphones. At least it would be very interesting to see what would change then. The "SFI diy orthos" thread shows that different type of earcups/pads can make a big difference. If the drivers are really "bad", then the "bad" HD250II would be also candidates for drivers transplants (maybe with those ortho drivers).
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Post by padam on Jan 10, 2011 22:06:22 GMT
HD250 evolution (right to left) i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww244/p_adam/HD250/IMG_8666-1.jpgThe newest has the biggest and most brutal (and obviously very deep) bass but it is too big to my tastes, it sounds like if the transducer needs more power to gain control over the bass so I am looking forward to try it with something powerful. The MK1 also seems to be harder to drive and obviously not as extended in the bass but not bad at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2011 23:08:43 GMT
Spot the ex-demo rack pair Are/were you in the trade or wangled a deal? My 560ovII are ex-rack as well, but I switched them back to normal, the now upside down writing must mean they are an Australian special
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Post by padam on Jan 10, 2011 23:33:19 GMT
OK because of your obvervation finally I figured out what kind of MK1 is this I thought it is used for broadcasting or similar. I found it on ebay and being a HD250 fanatic, I just had to go for it, even it went fairly high. Interestingly, the transducer is 600 ohm and not 300 ohm like most MK1s so this one might be great with a tube headphone amp. I actually put the cable back, it is very awkward to use it like that, but if you turn the drivers upside down they don't sound as good, so the orientation does matter! I tried putting the pads in the same orientation and it still wasn't as good. Maybe later I will ask someone to make a cable similarly to the HD-25 so it would be a lot easier to use.
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