rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Jan 2, 2014 22:19:37 GMT
2014 to me is no different that the last 58 years that I have been on this planet.
My resolution is always the same: Invest where you want to collect interest - my health, my wife, my kids, my trumpet, my audio, my job - not necessarily in that order......
In any case, all the best to you all wherever you may be. May you too be in a position to "invest" where it counts!
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Jan 2, 2014 22:06:33 GMT
I'm sorry, the bigger amplifier just sounds better because it doesn't clip on peaks. I'm sure I don't have to explain what kind of peak power a simple drum needs. 5W is laughably low, if you have a 5W amplifier with a 93dB/W/m speaker you better have some kind of solid state soft clipping implemented or a tube amp that clips nicer than solid state - and you can't speak of sound fidelity except for vocals and easy material. As a tweeter / compression driver amp it's OK for an efficient driver. I doubt the 115dB/W/m is actually a midrange. Maybe it's a low tweeter - 5W is ok for that obviously. But a 20W woofer amplifier is a bad idea. Anyway, if you want an amplifier with "tone" (bad idea in itself) and you're multi-amping, get a Nad M25. Then add your killer watts amplifier and see if you gain anything. Since we're in a headphone forum, would you drive a headphone with 93dB/mW efficiency with a 5mW headphone amplifier? Eugenius, you have the facts backwards. Based on inefficient speaker designs, all sorts of comprimises pop up when it comes to amplifier power. That has truly biased "common" knowledge and additionally gives the copy paste generation immediate visibility. There can be NO DISCUSSION of power requirements without considering what the source really looks like. Mini speakers are often praised by the press, but their interest is mercenary. Here are my considerations that are my "facts" used in making my audio decisions: Acoustic power required for a given "loudness" can be calculated. First you have to know what type of acoustic power is present at what frequency for live performances. The spread typically looks something like this for the classical music that I listen to: This means that our speakers must have about 20dB more output capability from 150 - 650Hz than they need at 1k-20KHz. If we consider the instruments that produce that high power, they are all LARGE in size. It would be a joke to assume accurate high output from small drivers. The electrical power that you need to get a particular output can be calculated based on the efficiency of the drivers being used. Here we cannot forget that we have 2 channels in stereo and room gain based on its size. We also have to consider that it is impossible to shoehorn a symphony orchestra into a 20 square meter living room at original volume. - the room reflections will destroy any enjoyment at those levels! All of a sudden, a real (large) 95-98db/Watt woofer/midrange (not the full range back loaded horn type!) can get by with little comprimise when you have 10 honest watts per channel where real music needs it most (95db/Watt means 105db at 10 Watts per speaker, this is 108dB for 2 speakers and with room gain, a bit more at the frequencies where the room helps). ULF like in home theater can also be calculated in the same way - of course someone that thinks that they need 10Hz usually just fools themselves into believing whatever that they want to - ported 10" subwoofers, 1000 Watts are typical "exaggerations" that only show lack of knowledge of the basic math. The typical 10" subwoofer driver is luck if it even has 70dB/watt at 10Hz. That means 80db 10 watts, 90 db 100 watts, 100dB 1000watts (if it can even survive this). The port noise alone from such "solutions" disqualify the implementation. The second problem is the "common knowledge" about amplifier power and clipping. The lies found all over the internet have only reduced the argument to the level of a casual reader with no real knowledge. The quality of sound has NOTHING to do with "power", perhaps except for the fact that many high power amplifiers are truly "sound challenged". If we have inefficient speakers (mostly the woofer being inefficient), and burn off power to the midrange and tweeter through resistors/LPADS, of course we are asking for trouble - but only when we are drunk or high. When we seriously listen to music, problems become apparent LONG before any damage is possible. Even if there is occasional clipping, so what? For the milliseconds of clipping, there is no immediate danger for anything, generally there is not, except for exceptionally poor amplifiers, even a noticable change in the sound. Basic math helps us to get an amplifier that will give us 100dB peaks in the living room (in my opinion - more than enough). I don't need 3dB headroom or anything else as this is truly meaningless if we are talking about dynamic music and not AM radio. As far as an amplifier with "tone", I guess you don't understand what I mean. Maybe you have not heard the breath of life that a fine amplifier can breath into fine speakers. Instruments are reproduced in "space" with substance (tone). The playback gains depth, width and presence - even at <80db output. The NAD is not qualified in performance for my "must have" list. In any case, I have had my listening experiments and have decided to use the MiniDSP for what it does best - as a set up tool, then turned off and completely disconnected as it did not pass any transparency test regardless if it was in bypass mode or only delay, only Xover or as an equalizer. My crossovers are now completely passive and part of the amplifier design. What was interesting - even with headphones, adding even small amounts of DSP signal correction helped the frequency domain become more linear, but sucked life out of the music. This sometimes made challenged music (128 bit MP3s) and AM/SW radio even sound "better". The better digital and formats all got worse........ So, I guess 5 watts above 650Hz is only laughable if someones playback defies the laws of physics. My tweeters (>10KHz) have a 2 watt amplifier now and that is many times times bigger than I really would need (20db below 105dB = 85dB. My 93dB/watt tweeter needs 8dB less than 1 watt for this level - that is about 0.14 watts. So I have over 10dB headroom in my situation!).
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Jan 2, 2014 19:40:48 GMT
I don 't understand why you use a horn in a speakersystem that's being used inside the house ? Plus both tweeters are not alined so the horn's sound reaches your ears first. Without an active filter with delay settings I believe their sound can never be balanced this way Madmac, I think you should ask questions before making assumptions....... All three drivers are very precisely acoustically aligned - by ear and by microphone for my listening seat. This is not especially difficult to do with a bit of practice. When you get the alignment right, there is no going back. Millimeters count! The acoustic center of the horn is in the driver, not at the horn mouth. For reasons that I cannot explain, the acoustic center is NOT exactly at the driver or voice coils - with the woofer/mid it is slightly behind the voice coil and for the HF horn it is about 1.5cm behind the horn throat on the BMS drivers that I am using. The planar tweeter acoustic center is in fact at the diaphragm. In any case, alignment is not something that can be "eyeballed" - at least not with any speaker that I have ever used. No need for any delay - or an active crossover for that matter either. The miniDSP and a couple of other active solutions did not pass the "transparent enough" test anyway. That doesn't mean that they sounded bad, it just means that it wasn't as good as before without them. It did help me make some value decisions however with the voicing of the entire system. The miniDSP is an excellent tool to set up speakers quickly. I use a horn for specific sonic goals and am quite happy with the integration with the other drivers. I would also use a horn for frequencies from 100 - 1,000Hz if I had the space. The advantages are many - especially when interfacing into a real room. Talk is cheap though and unfortunately there is almost no qualified information available info on the internet on how this can/should work. I know of no "reasonable" mainstream forum discussions when it comes to horns as there only seems to be blind love or hate. I am interested in neither. No one talks about "Sound" or "Emotion" anyway - my primary reasons for audio in the first place. My 3 channel valve amps are almost done and they have the (passive) crossover built into them between the driver and output valves. No extra parts in the signal path. Pictures will come in the next couple of weeks. Derek, actually, the "dynamics" were not really part of my goal with the horns. The charm of a relatively simple, excellent 1-2 Watt amplifier and everything that can be accomplished sonically at that "low" power compared with the "issues" when you need much higher power were much more interesting to me. I have even used a headphone amplifier (like the Sunrise) with surprisingly good results (this is not my solution however). These horns sound so smooth and matched to the other drivers now that "electrostatic" descriptions are what I hear from my guests the most. I am very close to being able to live with this solution for a long time. A new preamp for my record playback and a buffered volume control are pretty much all that is left to do after the power amps are finally voiced.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Aug 19, 2013 15:43:36 GMT
Hi Robin That's an interesting thought, as the gain of my preamp is 3.12 and the gain of my 15W Class A is 16. If only it was that simple. Perhaps if I had very sensitive horn speakers, the output of my Class A preamp with a Zobel fitted could drive them to a decent level ? Kind regards Alex Hi Alex, I think it is easier to take a Class A Headphone amplifier and parallel double or triple up the output devices to get the couple of watts that you need. I will try my HA on the 115dB/Watt/Meter BMS midrange driver (there are even 16 ohm diaphragms to keep other changes minimal!).
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Aug 18, 2013 14:01:34 GMT
Hi Alex,
maybe, just maybe the secret is to modify a headphone amplifier up instead of a "speaker" amplifier down. I will get around to this when the MiniDSP is here. Burning gain through a resistor seems to be really stupid. I am even investigating a technique used in studios where the position of the analogue gain controls is "programmable" - with servo motors. I will avoid at all costs sacrificing bit depth through mismatch of gain. I still want to listen to it and describe what is different.
My current system is set up so that I can use about 3/4 of the volume control for my typical listening levels. Adjusting gain with valve amps is VERY easy.
Regards,
Robin
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Aug 18, 2013 10:59:49 GMT
Considering that moving the subwoofer or our seating position only a couple of millimetres can change the standing wave pattern in the room dramatically and thus the deep bass frequency response that we hear by over 10-20dB, I personally would favor LONG, low resistance interconnects and at least 3 differently placed sources (subwoofers or satellites with deep bass capability) in the room for ULF. The multiple sources insure that ALL of the low frequency nodes get excited and this generally leads to a much better pressurization of the room. If your room is as big as a concert hall, you may need alternative strategies. The "sound" below 30 Hz is determined by the integration in the system and physically in the room, not some microscopic audiophile factor in the cable. As far as distortion goes, remember that the "terrible" third harmonic distortion is a frequency 3 times the fundemental. If the subwoofer is used below 30 Hz, third harmonic distortion would only be applicable for frequencies below 10-12 Hz. As those frequencies do not represent "musical" content, I think that higher order distortion is probably negligible anyway - assuming proper subwoofer design. I often wonder why there is so much interest in infrasonics with no discussion of the (very difficult) integration into the frequencies where TONE is generated. There are thousands of pages of ULF garbage (including manufacturers ads and magazine reviews) on the web and very little real info that leads to better sound. I guess if the goal is to shit your pants, the recipe for cables becomes "increase the size to toilet drain dimensions". I use standard professional non boutique quality microphone cable with low impedance and capacitance for all of my interconnects. They are essentially immune to microphonics, well shielded and are mechanically sound as well as environmentally neutral. That should insure good performance for many years to come. It is the job of properly designed electronics to provide a suitable interface for the use case. If cables make a "big" difference, the electronic design is shit and needs to be fixed - unless the real purpose of the design was to sell cables. My recommendation for subwoofer interconnects: shop.klotz-ais.com/cgi-bin/quickorder/lshop.cgi?action=showrub&wkid=1376822344-3688&ls=e&nc=&rubnum=pro.audio.bulk.mic&artnum=&file=&gesamt_zeilen=&p8=They are available in decorator colours to insure that they are noticed by audiophools. The "budget" version with 60pF/metre means that you can calculate the ultrasonic rolloff for the subwoofer based on the chosen length and input impedance of the subwoofer amp using the following formula: This means if we optimise the output impedance of the source (preamp) and input impedance of the target (subwoofer amp), the cables stay out of the way!
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Aug 18, 2013 10:19:42 GMT
Did this "project" go anywhere?
In the mean time I have "learned" alot about the methodology in "advancing" sonics from a related web site: Goodsoundclub.com. I think that it could be very interesting reading for those interested in self reflection..............
Romy the Cat that runs it basically has published his "diary" of concept to implementation over many years. I know of no other sites that go into this type of detail. He has a very unique way of responding to things happening in the world of audio. Many have trouble with his "wording" because they do not understand the message.
In any case, the jist of his method is to take what you currently have seriously, define areas where things could (should) improve, and then do NOT just try stuff out, rather develop a strategy to cure specific issues - generally one at a time because with every tiny change, the big picture needs to be reevaluated. Even although most of his stuff is "custom" built, it is very much not DIY. His sense of "purpose" is in my opinion exemplary.
So if this project is still open, what is the problem with these speakers? Where does the performance come up short? Can you define the quality of the ultra low bass, low bass, mid bass, lower midrange, upper midrange, treble, supersonics?
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Aug 17, 2013 23:23:18 GMT
Hi Alex, I think that there is nothing wrong with working on other areas while waiting for the geniuses to figure out how to screw up digital audio even more.......
With the proper design considerations, the MiniDSP could become my "preamp", DAC and crossover. There are some really interesting interface options here. I think that the multiamp process could offer incredible advantages for dialing in SQ. Even if the MD is only a design tool in the end, I will have real data to move forward with. tHe PS is a major concern. A stiff, low impedance JLH could be what the doctor ordered - or perhaps not....... I will know for sure sometime VERY soon.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Aug 17, 2013 23:13:27 GMT
Well, I guess that Stereophile hasn't done any of their paying advertisers any favors........
We all know that the resistance and capacitance in cables can affect the coupling between the amps and speakers. Any of the "better" speaker development software takes the resistance of cables and crossover into account when calculating Fs.
So yes, I believe that there can be audible differences. They are explainable however. I will disagree that planar speakers are good for this type of test. I would think that conventional cones would show more due to voicecoil resonance effects.
66% is not statistically significant. Real differences are generally 80% or more.
In theory, advanced amplifier and speaker design should insure that there are no interface issues. Just imagine if you could only use a microsoft mouse if windows were installed.............
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Aug 17, 2013 22:54:54 GMT
I have finished building some speakers and the next step will be multiamping. I have ordered a MiniDSP and have googled more nonsense than I am willing to put up with. Almost all of the threads get reduced to subwoofer control, 10 HZ, and 2000 watt amplifiers implemented by the brain dead. Over 50% demonstrate the inability toread the Funking documentation and when you spoon feed them, they just vomit more trash.
So turning the rant off, has anyone here done something reasonable with the MiniDSP. Any modifications? Powersupply tests? As I have one coming, I will document my experiences first hand. If there are interesting suggestions, I am willing to experiment.
My primary interests: Digital EQ Higher order crossovers (>24 dB) Possible crossover frequencies and their effect on tone Digital delay Freedom from digital artifacts Digital attenuation vs analogue Integration of xover/amps/speakers
Goal is to find out what works not what people with no first hand experience THINK that they would hear.
I have some additional hardware requirements and am not sure where I want to go. My tweeters are 93dB efficient and I really will not need more than 5 watts class A. The midrange driver is 115dB efficient and 2 -5 killer watts would be enough. The woofer is somewhere between 94 and 98dB efficient, so 10-20 watts would be fine. I really like valves, but if I could find some really transparent SS low power amps with TONE, I would be interested. The Pass First Watt amps do not sound "transparent" to me.
Stay tuned, it could be a very interesting ride...........
Robin
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Aug 16, 2013 12:31:56 GMT
Hi all, I have been out for a while with personal issues but still managed to get my new speakers finished: Eminence Deltalite 12" woofer BMS 1.4" horn driver modified Faital horn Infinity EMIT high energy tweeter my own custom Xover Transmissionline box with curved, sand filled sides. The amplifier is an EL34 PP UL design with a MOSFET driver stage. This will probably change soon as the new speakers do not need 40 Watts+. The plan is to build a 3 channel amp with each channel specifically chosen for the speaker driver intended. That means 5-8 Watts for the woofer, 1-3 watts for the midrange and tweeter. When the amp is finished, I will experiment with passive line level and/or MiniDSP. My record deck is a round marble slab with a top of the line Kenwood direct drive motor and modified platter (resonance dampening) The tone-arm I built using the Opus3 Cantus as inspiration. The wand is damped carbon fibre: Keep your Pron cumming.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Jul 12, 2012 5:04:46 GMT
That would be 5x dual triodes (12AU7) if you wanted to do it right........
I am suspicious of Mr. Linkwitz. He likes dipoles........
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Jul 12, 2012 4:59:41 GMT
I can offer trumpet and bass because without highs and lows - it would sound like Bose!
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on May 8, 2012 19:56:37 GMT
Higher pressure pipes? I don't think so. Pressure has NOTHING to do with the ability to reproduce low notes. The lowest frequency pipes are Gedackt and are not suitable for high pressure. The high pressure pipes like spanish trumpets are never longer than the 16 foot register.
The power is not based on the pipe pressure, rather the resonance of the pipe. Pipe organs get loud by adding multiple registers.
I play trumpet professionally in Germany and have a lot of experience with the real thing.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on May 2, 2012 5:22:39 GMT
It is a rare pipe organ with ANY type of 64 foot register. Most in Germany have stopped 16 foot to simulate a 32 foot register.
Subsonics in acoustic music consist of the standing wave in a room. THAT is the information that tells us how big the room really is. That standing wave CAN be in the recording (if good omni condenser mikes or ribbons were used) but is ALWAYS present in the listening room too.
External noise sources are usually not that big of a deal.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on May 1, 2012 9:15:19 GMT
It depends what you mean by "win". Winning a battle is not always significant when reviewing the war.
When a relationship is reduced to winning and losing, both have already lost.
I have been living common denominator for over 30 years.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on May 1, 2012 9:10:53 GMT
Yeah, but Frans, how does the mobile home fit in here?
I find Frans's responses on the logical side of neutral. NwAvGuy can't even claim "art" as the reason for his thickness.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 27, 2012 20:23:26 GMT
I think a good bottle of red wine looks better.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 23, 2012 18:24:16 GMT
1) The information that gets to my brain for analysis is altered thousands of times more just by my attitude than by an amp.
2) The frequency/phase response of headphones varies dramatically based on the fit - which is different every time that you put them on
3) my music always sounds best when I am not in analysis mode, in fact a good red wine and a piece of fine cheese increases the listening pleasure much more than the distortion caused by tubes
4) if we would spend more time on the "experience" instead of the "numbers", we would have less to talk about, but have a bigger smile on our faces!
5) I am building an amp that looks like an Indeed/bravo, but has 2 wine corks where the tubes"should be". I know that that amp will lower the resistance of my AKG 701s dramatically, will put me in the listening phase, and increase the freak response!
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 18, 2012 8:25:07 GMT
Ribbon tweeters are not inherently "better" than other types, the same applies to ring radiators.
If you are looking to REPLACE your current tweeters, getting a good match involves a whole new crossover, not just switching out. The nearfield response that most of us can measure (with programs like ARTA) do not say much about the power response than actually reaches our ears. There all of the room reflections mess up the measurements.
If it were my money, I would just cross the ribbon/present tweeter over at 10,000Hz and perhaps gain a slight advantage in that last octave without messing up the present balance in the midrange.
Actually, if it were my money, I would probably just build or buy new speakers instead of patching old ones.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 15, 2012 22:02:10 GMT
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 13, 2012 23:15:32 GMT
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 12, 2012 21:24:50 GMT
A very handsome and even more confident man walks into a bar and takes a seat next to a very attractive woman. He gives her a quick glance, then casually looks at his watch for a moment.
The woman notices this and can't help but ask, "Is your date running late?"
"No," he replies, "I just bought this state-of-the-art watch and I was just testing it."
The woman is intrigued and asks, "A state-of-the-art watch? What's so special about it?"
"It uses alpha waves to telepathically talk to me," he explains.
"What's it telling you now?"
"Well, it says you're not wearing any panties..."
The woman giggles and replies, "Well it must be broken then, because I am wearing panties!"
The man taps on the face of the watch and explains, "Damn thing must be an hour fast."
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 11, 2012 22:13:37 GMT
Btw, have you place the subs on any isolation platform to further improve the sub sound quality? Something like Subdude. With that, I think will use the metal spikes again as that will already anchor the subs well to prevent it from rattling. That's the problem with current subs. They produce so much power (600 Wrms, btw) to rattle about on their own when thye are not heavy enough. I don't believe in bandaids and don't have wooden floors so isolation platforms hurt more than they help. If the subs need more mass, any gravestone cutter can cut custom stone to make your subwoofer more massive - and look better at the same time. A thick slab on the top is normally enough, a slab on the left and right can really increase the WAF! There is another side to this however proven by B&W with their matrix series. More mass means more potential stored energy. For LF reproduction, I can't verify that, but mid bass for sure. The size of the subwoofer has to be matched to the room otherwise compression chamber effects like in an automobile change the way that we perceive low frequencies.
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Mar 11, 2012 21:47:12 GMT
I have these (in a different color) in my home office: Easy to build and sound wonderful. Very good bass extension when near the wall and properly damped. These are in my listening room (albeit with a granite cabinet now):
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