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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 17:44:48 GMT
The E17 can be prone to noise from the Iphone Dale which is a pity. That is the one that's designed for iphones isn't it?
I rather like FiiO stuff. It's warm sounding but very nice. I often use the E11 which works well.
You have to order TWO K701 pads Dale. They don't come in packs of two!!! Unbelievable really. Those K601 pads will go on it though. Also, don't forget the two little doughnuts which go in the centre. It's something to do with reflections.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 22, 2012 18:28:32 GMT
There is only ONE authority on the DT48 in all its forms, shapes and sizes (perhaps even headphones in general) that I know of. It's a bloke called 'Dale Thorn' or something. He even has his own website ! Whenever you google 'DT48' his name pops up all over the screen. And I thought he was a computer programmer... Just teasing with a sound hint of sarcasm I noticed Tyll was not impressed by the sound nor it's measurements and believe he tried judging from the many attempts to get it to measure anywhere near half decent. Might that 'incident' have something to do with you finding him to know liitle to nothing about sound as it was your headphone he measured ? In most cases I can find myself in Tyll's findings, but sometimes I have a different opinion. Who doesn't ? You got me there b.t.w..... I am no authority at all, just have a set of ears and a soldering iron... hence the name 'solderdude' that was bestowed on me by an old friend. I also like to dink with electronics and headphones which won't reflect well on me as it also doesn't for Tyll. Anyway.. back to trying to get the old M50 version to sound more like I expect the newer version to sound. Based on not hearing the new version that is b.t.w. but by an 'educated quess/assumptions'. That's what this thread is about I thought Good you still have your sense of humor. A certain test equipment expert on another site does not, but I won't mention his name. My expertise on the DT48 is by longevity, but when it comes to the absolute depth and breadth of knowledge from possession of many DT48's going back to the 1950's, it's KBI (Kool Bubba Ice). Tyll sees the DT48 in a way that meets his bureaucratic standards of "monitor" headphone. He has no real concept of high fidelity that I'm aware of, albeit his site (and many others) are quick to seize on the "Fi" or "Fidelity" term for marketing purposes. That's just a limitation of the person though, and his site can't be expected to be everything for everyone. But where Tyll shoots himself in the foot I believe is with his PR - for all the good his front end promos do, saying things like "The Shure 940 sounds poor" and then refusing to discuss any details about it, or worse yet, being hostile on other sites besides his own - not good. After he invited a friend, another so-called expert and hostile individual to assist with measurement things on his forum, I took my reviews over to Stereophile. The irony is that Stereophile refers headphone inquiries to Innerfidelity, yet since Stereophile maintains their own headphone forum, I can post reviews there. And judging by the number of accesses to those posts, the Stereophile headphone forum is outpulling Innerfidelity's. All of that would be inconsequential and forgettable until you realize it isn't so much about fidelity on some stereo and headphone forums - it's about a cult and following people. I could put the fancy wraparound shades on and have my face on my videos, but I don't want followers so I don't. Unfortunately I get hate posts on Amazon and Youtube from certain other people's followers. One of the key ingredients of those hate posts is the age thing - the people who post them will say really bigoted things about old people and pin that on me, saying "how can you review headphones when you can't even hear?" BTW, I keep book on all of those posts, going back a year to a very large headphone forum. In the U.S. we have laws and very well understood prohibitions against voicing hate based on race, religion, ethnicity, and perhaps a couple other things, but we are way behind on gender and age. So what does that have to do with the M50? Everything! I treat my M50 as a unique product, and evaluate it mostly as a whole, making exceptions only when something presses on my brain and says "pay attention to this particular thing". I have enough gear and enough experience to sort out when a headphone has warmth (to name one thing) and when the warmth is excessive or out of context, if that makes sense. With the PS500, the warmth is either excessive or out of context - it sounds wrong to me. I don't hear any such problem with the new M50. BTW, mfr's do change their spec. I had 2 of the Senn 414's in the mid 1970's, and the anniversary edition that came out circa 1998 sounded *very* very different. Like the difference between a toy headphone and a high fidelity headphone. Then the new 414 failed after a few months.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 22, 2012 18:37:55 GMT
Uh-oh. What did I do? I actually ordered the v-moda vamp earlier this month, then canceled when I discovered one (only one!) review of the many that mentioned that same interference issue. If the FiiO gives me interference, I'll know it, because it won't be used outdoors, just here in my extremely quiet listening spot. Then again, I can use the iPod Touch, yes?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 18:56:52 GMT
yes they do. the newer ATH-M50 obviously is one of those as well. However, they are not used as an industrial standard though or as a 'known' reference with a fixed set of correction factors. The DT48 is targetted as an industrial standard (a constant) and must comply otherwise they would shout themselves in the foot. It's really the ONLY reason why the DT48's exist till today, because they have not changed and the needed correction is known and does not change and is always fixed within 1dB (within a spec'd band) It's not that I don't trust your findings Dale. I trust them as much as I do Tyll's and Jude's Ian was kind enough to send me an M50 he used for a long time, noticing I was interested in it and never auditioned one. The moment it came in (together with the 7506) they were on my head and an evening was spent on these. Everyone is looking for the holy grail headphone. They will be different headphones for most of us and some might like the same one(s) or appreciate a certain headphone for what they do right or need to do in certain circumstances. Some will end up with an HD-201 others with the Stax 009 and both will enjoy their headpones and shake their heads as they do not understand why another prefers the polar opposite. Headphones is not an exact science like electronics is as mechanical and acoustical and above all perception is hard to measure and quantify and highly subjective and taste and preference sensitive.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 19:01:44 GMT
Of course. I use a Touch (amongst many other portable things) Mine's starting to lose battery life now. I hate the fact that it's not a simple job to change a battery. It's such a rigmarole.
It's the device that the phone or Touch sits inside isn't it? So you just have one package. A nifty idea.
I hope it woks out for you. They're not too cheap are they?
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 22, 2012 21:10:21 GMT
It's not that I don't trust your findings Dale. I trust them as much as I do Tyll's and Jude's I trust Tyll's tests, if that's what you mean by 'findings'. And I'm not aware that Jude does tests. But I wouldn't trust either one of those persons to report on sound. They both have agendas that include a lot of anger and hostility, and of course profit motive. I would hate to ever be compared to them. I get no free samples, and I have no followers. For me hi-fi is neither a hobby nor a business. I'm doing the review thing because I can, and because there needs to be an alternative to the nonsense I see on so many sites - people talking about "fun" sound as opposed to high fidelity sound. Or how fast or how much 'Prat' a headphone or amp has. Ehhhh? What's that about? Well, we'll see how long this lasts. BTW, if you don't know what I mean about anger and hostility, read the pages on the Shure 940 at headfi. One guy there bent over backwards to try to get suggestions for testing aspects of the 940's sound, but certain senior members kept blocking the guy and discouraging other people from making suggestions. A couple suggestions did manage to squeeze through, which vindicated the 940 guy. Then there were some really extreme posts, but I'll not describe those here.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 22, 2012 21:14:57 GMT
Of course. I use a Touch (amongst many other portable things) Mine's starting to lose battery life now. I hate the fact that it's not a simple job to change a battery. It's such a rigmarole. It's the device that the phone or Touch sits inside isn't it? So you just have one package. A nifty idea. I hope it woks out for you. They're not too cheap are they? As far as I know the E17 is not an i-device DAC, it's a conventional DAC for desktop and laptop PC's, so I shouldn't need to get an iPhone close enough to cause interference.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 21:37:22 GMT
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 22, 2012 22:28:38 GMT
I see. I must be confusing it with a device I saw last week where a phone (or Touch) actually fitted inside it in some way. >:(Actually, I realise now where I saw it. You may have bought one..... a V-Moda? I actually ordered it, then canceled. I imagine Val must be having fits over the acceptance of this new item. Apparently it's a dead end with the iPhone4, it's $600 on Amazon, the need for a dac for portable use is questionable - too many negatives. I think what most people want for their portable headphone is a convincing bass, which this gadget doesn't help with. I think if I were making this I'd get some popular headphones into the lab and make a custom EQ curve for each, for bass, and put those settings into the device. If this thing flops, maybe he'll run the next gizmo past me first. I've been on his promo team so it's not like he couldn't say something.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2012 6:40:49 GMT
I trust Tyll's tests, if that's what you mean by 'findings'. And I'm not aware that Jude does tests. But I wouldn't trust either one of those persons to report on sound. They both have agendas that include a lot of anger and hostility, and of course profit motive. Jude's and Tyll's findings (subjective sound descriptions) was what I am talking about, didn't mention tests. The anger and hostility may be in the forum but not in the findings/sonic descriptions/reports IMO. I certainly agree with motives and when you read the reports from HR they are always positive with perhaps a slight note hinting to limitations. On IF this is less IMO, he seems more realsitic and less worried about sales. HR lives on sales (their agenda), don't know about IF t.b.h., and therefore reviews will be positive otherwise there would be no sales for certain items. Here is the thing that Chong noticed a while ago... You appear to be doing the same. Every headphone you review is 'good sounding' and has many positives and the negatives are 'weakened'. I understand you buy most (but also get freebies) and thus you can select the ones that may appeal to you improving the chance you get a 'good un'. Another thing is you also display a lot of anger and hostility when people do not concur or have other opinions. Me being Dutch and kind of ... well... blunt, to be blunt, and this forum being English based means we have to extend some forms of courtesy and disagree politely. This has ticked off a few U.K. (and former U.K.) people in the past and I hope I have improved my game a bit. It's not the wild west of USA where we are being sued for everything we say or write (at least it isn't yet but getting there slowly) and need to profile ourselves, so some toning down in replies and mounting a horse that is less high can be beneficial to you and envoke less 'agressive' reactions. I would hate to ever be compared to them. Oops ... sorry... I believe I just did... but not for having an agenda and being dishonest on purpose in order to make sales. You appear to be more of an filantropic than a money chaser. I'm doing the review thing because I can, and because there needs to be an alternative to the nonsense I see on so many sites - people talking about "fun" sound as opposed to high fidelity sound. Or how fast or how much 'Prat' a headphone or amp has. Ehhhh? What's that about? Hmmm a difficult one and I'll enlighten you a bit.. these colorful descriptions are part of the subjective community where one only listens with the ears and the emotions they have while listening are presumed to be coming from how the music is technically conveyed and thus seem to be coming from a technical background as well (cables, opamps, capacitors, resistors, diodes) virtually each electronic part in fact. IMO these are not of electrical origin but perceptional and heated debates (wars ?) have been the results. Why ? see RG as a church where subjectivity is the religion and graphs and measurements are a form of blasphemy to some. You wouldn't go into a church or synagog and start preaching the Koran either... So yes... pratt et all will be sprinkled here in abundance ... we'll have to learn to live with it. Well, we'll see how long this lasts. BTW, if you don't know what I mean about anger and hostility, read the pages on the Shure 940 at headfi. One guy there bent over backwards to try to get suggestions for testing aspects of the 940's sound, but certain senior members kept blocking the guy and discouraging other people from making suggestions. A couple suggestions did manage to squeeze through, which vindicated the 940 guy. Then there were some really extreme posts, but I'll not describe those here. Ah well what happens in 'the other place' is of little concern to RG. I have auditioned the 940 a couple of times and I had hoped it to be different. a good headphone, but wouldn't recommend it or say it's the most accurate headphone around, perhaps except to people who like the K701 and like that but want to own a different brand. Controverse is present for every headphone, everywhery so yes... people may not agree with your findings. These findings are highly subjective (with objective mumbo jumbo between it for those that care) and have everything to do with taste and preference as well for most people. This post contains some 'unwritten rules' that are handy to keep in the back of your mind and apply to everyone. Resistance is futile... go with the flow.. and be friendly, even to those who disagree.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 23, 2012 11:18:32 GMT
I think you got confused Frans. I do argue about things sometimes, but I don't threaten people. Perhaps you should re-read.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 23, 2012 11:20:53 GMT
The reason Jude's and Tyll's findings are not useful is because right up front they admit they like colorations. Not mere toleration of colorations, but "like". I don't do that.
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Jun 23, 2012 11:50:59 GMT
I think you got confused Frans. I do argue about things sometimes, but I don't threaten people. Perhaps you should re-read. It's something you find all over the web. Threatening isn't the issue but rather the aggressive tone that can be perceived from what is written. Frans' evil twin is a perfect example. Good grief there are more examples but I'll keep it limited to him for now. Regarding Tyll and Jude, admitting bias/preference is at least honest towards the public.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2012 11:56:17 GMT
The reason Jude's and Tyll's findings are not useful is because right up front they admit they like colorations. Not mere toleration of colorations, but "like". I don't do that. Everyone likes something over something else, and has also has a favorite 'color' in sound. I do as well and don't think that's a bad thing. Doesn't mean the aforementioned gentlemen have no experience or cannot describe certain features/sound/properties/coloration in an accurate way while having a taste or preference of their own. Some only like to drink water and others like it flavored by ground beans or dried leaves or lots of sugar and other additives. If some likes 'flavoured' water doesn't automatically mean they cannot appreciate a good glass of cold pure water.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Jun 23, 2012 12:35:17 GMT
Who doesn't like a good glass of cold water? Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2012 12:52:06 GMT
There aren't many headphones that are 'flat', Dale. If I'm honest, I find the so called 'flat' sound rather ordinary to listen to as well. The M50 isn't flat either. However, I think Tyll likes what many headphone listeners like: a slight 'u' shape in the FR curve. I think the flattest headphone I have is probably the K601 which many people just find flat and uninteresting. Rather 'grey' sounding, like its colour. I know many favour the K701 but for me it favours the top end too much and so is skewed to my ears. However, I can understand and empathise with the people that like it. (poor souls!!) It's all very well being a purist in theory, but I think in practise, the flat headphone is hard to achieve. Kind of like a photograph that you want to look real. It's a very complex thing and I can't honestly say I favour one thing over another because it depends what I'm listening to at what volume and what type of music it is. I tend to pick the colouration that will help the music/style I'm listening to and accept that most headphones are coloured so I use whatever I have. For me, that's a big advantage of headphones - you can change them whenever you like in seconds, but you can't with speakers. I guess you'd be happy with a DT48 if you had only one headphone? That could be because you've used them for so long that you have tuned out its colourations - like me with the DT150. I've used them for a very long time. I couldn't pick one out and funnily enough, it's the one question that I get asked a lot - 'What's the best headphone?' BTW, I don't think Frans was saying that you were calling people names, Dale. I think he was referring more to the style of writing and how people pick up on it. I'm not being funny, but it's quite strange that it seems to be computer programmers on RG that write this way!!!! I think it's a technical thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2012 13:18:01 GMT
I don't 'do' water.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 23, 2012 16:06:51 GMT
The reason Jude's and Tyll's findings are not useful is because right up front they admit they like colorations. Not mere toleration of colorations, but "like". I don't do that. Everyone likes something over something else, and has also has a favorite 'color' in sound. I do as well and don't think that's a bad thing. Doesn't mean the aforementioned gentlemen have no experience or cannot describe certain features/sound/properties/coloration in an accurate way while having a taste or preference of their own. Some only like to drink water and others like it flavored by ground beans or dried leaves or lots of sugar and other additives. If some likes 'flavoured' water doesn't automatically mean they cannot appreciate a good glass of cold pure water. I wouldn't say what I said if Tyll and Jude were more tolerant people, but both of them have exhibited very intolerant attitudes towards other people that were not warranted.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 23, 2012 16:19:17 GMT
There aren't many headphones that are 'flat', Dale. If I'm honest, I find the so called 'flat' sound rather ordinary to listen to as well. The M50 isn't flat either. However, I think Tyll likes what many headphone listeners like: a slight 'u' shape in the FR curve. Flat and colored et al are just words that serve more to confuse than enlighten. When I get past the words I find Tyll's preferences distinctly anti-fidelity. He has expressed awesome respect for the SR009 by Stax, and nearly that for the Senn HD800, both of which qualify as high fidelity, not just in fact, but in the designer's efforts to achieve neutrality. But then he goes from that to fawning over awful-sounding headphones like the Bose QC15 and then (gasp!) actually saying he prefers such-and-such colorations. So as an astute observer of this scene I can only conclude that 1) He knows good sound when he hears it, then quickly forgets while he plays with the latest junk like a little boy, which BTW is very good for the profit motive as well as (very important) the comraderie needed between him and Stereophile and Headfi. -- Or, 2) He doesn't have a clue and just gets the words to say from someone else. I know that I dislike colorations, period. If I put up with them as a practical matter, fine. Nothing is perfect. I just think I should be honest about it and not make excuses. I wish all reviewers would do the same.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2012 18:27:10 GMT
Flat = from 20 to 20,000 = a straight (ish) FR line Coloured = 20 to 20,000 = some big hump. Limited FR = not 20 -20,000. Clinical = PLays the notes correctly. (Very often flat(ish) Musical = (in many cases) a slight hump in the bass or a fast response that helps hear the 'effort' that goes into the music making. (I guess) It's not said to confuse. I'm a musician, but it doesn't mean that I go into the tech speak of figured bass to sonata form to romanticism to nationalism to serialism to minimalism and then start to talk about the complexities of what each type of music has contained within. I allow people to say things like minimalism is crap or whatever, when in actual fact, I have used it myself. Equally, I've been told many times how cold electronic music is (because I work with synths) and how unmusical it is etc. I don't tell them how wrong they are to like or not like music by throwing technicalities at them (knowing that many may well not understand) I don't use those types of descriptions because I know my target audience I guess. The 'colourful' type language is seen as 'user friendly' and more understood by most while the tech guys tend to say some things that no-one understands too well. They tend to use it as their ultimate proof and the end of an argument as well. The argument the other week showed how techs can get their claws into each other; each using different (carefully chosen) data to prove their points while others have not a lot of idea what they're going on about!! I try to tread an intelligent(ish) line (as far as intelligent for me is concerned!!!) and mix the two and that way, you gain friends (and supporters) in both camps. ie; people like me understand what I'm saying (Especially those who have been on RG a while) and understand what my own tastes in sound are. People like Frans and Alex are friendly too (I think.....) because they come from a much more technical stance. In fact Frans is a tech guy who has worked with musos as well so even he, as the robot, Spock like computer brain that he has, is able to communicate and understand exactly what numpties like me are saying. It's quite funny that sometimes, I say something on here and Frans pops up with an explanation of why I may be hearing certain things. I have found that quite fascinating, but the biggest turn off with a great many hi fi people is the use of technical info to prove a point which goes over many peoples' heads and sometimes may not be the thing that is being described in any case. Equally, I can understand tech guys getting agitated with 'ignorance.' This sounds snobby, but I get that when people talk about music tbh. However, I don't say too much because it can hurt feelings. For instance, I checked out your Beethoven recommendation ...... Are you sure that's a good recording? Or are you talking technically? Also, if you try to explain to a musician why a recording is so good, does it make you feel a little less confident? That's the effect of techs on some. (Unless you also happen to be an expert on Music too) I guess what I'm saying is RG is like a local British pub in way; terribly British and normally pretty polite. I thought you were pretty close to Tyll and never realised how you felt about him too. The other one I really understand because he's looking at profits etc., but I've always liked Tyll's manner and his descriptions, although I do realise that he's being polite most of the time himself. Interestingly, your Youtube descriptions are rather nice but I noticed that you don't include a lot of detail. (Similar to Tyll actually) Do you measure them when you try them out at home? I get the impression from the videos that you don't, but you do communicate on them rather nicely. I keep looking for your face!!!! (with the headphone on it) Why on earth Tyll wasted his time with those poxy dj type headphones, I don't know. However, most of what he describes in his reviews is exactly what I get when I compare. I think he's a good communicator as well and I find him interesting. I especially like the mix of tech and teaching on his site. The graph builder. is very good I thought and extremely well thought out. Frans has done a great job putting up with my daft questions (and wind ups) in order to help understand those graphs, but ultimately for me: a) each headphone I have is for a different purpose. I don't like using eq. b) I regard none as flat. (I guess I could try and eq them so they all sound the same? c) Tech reports as proof are a big turn off for many on RG. d) a mixture of tech/subjective is often greatly appreciated by most. Interesting, because to me, you're a relatively new character here and have a lot of info out there on the internet. I stopped using Headfi way back, before I got myself banned and I don't go on other sites to contribute, although I do read them. I find it very interesting how we all perceive different headphones and music; sometimes in opposite way as well. However, occasionally, someone comes up with something in the music field that I don't know about and when I check it out, it's a nice surprise. I'm quite open to others ideas I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2012 18:37:10 GMT
I forgot to say ..... RG tends to be slightly 'looser' in control/content than many other sites. Just in case you think this M50 thread is rambling and destroyed!! It normally swings back again and goes on forever!!
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 23, 2012 22:52:50 GMT
Flat = from 20 to 20,000 = a straight (ish) FR line Coloured = 20 to 20,000 = some big hump. Limited FR = not 20 -20,000. Clinical = PLays the notes correctly. (Very often flat(ish) Musical = (in many cases) a slight hump in the bass or a fast response that helps hear the 'effort' that goes into the music making. (I guess) It's not said to confuse. I'm a musician, but it doesn't mean that I go into the tech speak of figured bass to sonata form to romanticism to nationalism to serialism to minimalism and then start to talk about the complexities of what each type of music has contained within. I allow people to say things like minimalism is crap or whatever, when in actual fact, I have used it myself. Equally, I've been told many times how cold electronic music is (because I work with synths) and how unmusical it is etc. I don't tell them how wrong they are to like or not like music by throwing technicalities at them (knowing that many may well not understand) I don't use those types of descriptions because I know my target audience I guess. The 'colourful' type language is seen as 'user friendly' and more understood by most while the tech guys tend to say some things that no-one understands too well. They tend to use it as their ultimate proof and the end of an argument as well. The argument the other week showed how techs can get their claws into each other; each using different (carefully chosen) data to prove their points while others have not a lot of idea what they're going on about!! I try to tread an intelligent(ish) line (as far as intelligent for me is concerned!!!) and mix the two and that way, you gain friends (and supporters) in both camps. ie; people like me understand what I'm saying (Especially those who have been on RG a while) and understand what my own tastes in sound are. People like Frans and Alex are friendly too (I think.....) because they come from a much more technical stance. In fact Frans is a tech guy who has worked with musos as well so even he, as the robot, Spock like computer brain that he has, is able to communicate and understand exactly what numpties like me are saying. It's quite funny that sometimes, I say something on here and Frans pops up with an explanation of why I may be hearing certain things. I have found that quite fascinating, but the biggest turn off with a great many hi fi people is the use of technical info to prove a point which goes over many peoples' heads and sometimes may not be the thing that is being described in any case. Equally, I can understand tech guys getting agitated with 'ignorance.' This sounds snobby, but I get that when people talk about music tbh. However, I don't say too much because it can hurt feelings. For instance, I checked out your Beethoven recommendation ...... Are you sure that's a good recording? Or are you talking technically? Also, if you try to explain to a musician why a recording is so good, does it make you feel a little less confident? That's the effect of techs on some. (Unless you also happen to be an expert on Music too) I guess what I'm saying is RG is like a local British pub in way; terribly British and normally pretty polite. I thought you were pretty close to Tyll and never realised how you felt about him too. The other one I really understand because he's looking at profits etc., but I've always liked Tyll's manner and his descriptions, although I do realise that he's being polite most of the time himself. Interestingly, your Youtube descriptions are rather nice but I noticed that you don't include a lot of detail. (Similar to Tyll actually) Do you measure them when you try them out at home? I get the impression from the videos that you don't, but you do communicate on them rather nicely. I keep looking for your face!!!! (with the headphone on it) Why on earth Tyll wasted his time with those poxy dj type headphones, I don't know. However, most of what he describes in his reviews is exactly what I get when I compare. I think he's a good communicator as well and I find him interesting. I especially like the mix of tech and teaching on his site. The graph builder. is very good I thought and extremely well thought out. Frans has done a great job putting up with my daft questions (and wind ups) in order to help understand those graphs, but ultimately for me: a) each headphone I have is for a different purpose. I don't like using eq. b) I regard none as flat. (I guess I could try and eq them so they all sound the same? c) Tech reports as proof are a big turn off for many on RG. d) a mixture of tech/subjective is often greatly appreciated by most. Interesting, because to me, you're a relatively new character here and have a lot of info out there on the internet. I stopped using Headfi way back, before I got myself banned and I don't go on other sites to contribute, although I do read them. I find it very interesting how we all perceive different headphones and music; sometimes in opposite way as well. However, occasionally, someone comes up with something in the music field that I don't know about and when I check it out, it's a nice surprise. I'm quite open to others ideas I guess. You've put up with me, so far at least, so you should get an award just for that (oh, the humanity!). A little across-the-pond humour there. I guess I understand what you mean in those definitions about flat or not flat. Then again, it pays to have control of the test gear and the devoted audience to spread your findings, eh? And I trust the measured findings, so at least I'm not clinically paranoid. Yet. I'm not a big fan of electronica by any means, but when the Air tracks for Le Voyage Dans La Lune came out I got accustomed to those very quickly. There were accusations of course along the lines of Mantovani etc., but you know, if that's all the electronica you have it's a good start. I've listened to it 50 or 60 times, half of those with the DT-1350. How about that? When I go onto a forum like Tyll's or Jude's I'm at a serious disadvantage, because they serve a young crowd that's big into gaming and hiphop and big bass and (whatever), and they really don't need someone like me hanging around explaining to them about high fidelity. So in fact they rely on bully techniques to solve an otherwise unsolvable problem. It works in many venues in life, so it's not like a mystery or something. My mission, if I'm successful, is to hold up a banner (metaphorically or virtually speaking) that says "Hey, kids, theirs is not the way to happiness. Just like McD's burgers and fries and high fructose corn syrup is bad for your health, those big bass "fun"-fi venues are going to be bad for your high fidelity health, if not your hearing." Is the Beethoven the Abbado or the Barenboim? The Barenboim is a "youth" orchestra they say, yet they play very well. The Abbado is a 96 khz release, my first ever hirez 9th, so I wasn't overly critical of it. I wish I could say more about Tyll that would make sense - my personal experience with him is that he's often careless in what he says, and he sides with certain people even when they do very bad things. Not good. You remember the old saying "when they came for the ____'s I wasn't a ____ so I didn't speak up. Hardly anyone ever speaks up when bad is done. That's just the way life is. When I do a youtube video it's after the written review and the written review is preceded by extensive tests. But I only go so far in the written review with details - just enough to note the major differences from perfect, or as close as I can get on that. Then the youtube video is completely ad-lib - no script. I've gotten a little better on the headphones with practice, and replaced a couple older ones. When I start with new things like amps and dacs, in some ways it's like starting from scratch, so it will require practice to get it right. When I do get it right I think my videos convey more info than those I see from others on youtube. But since they're not scripted they don't have as much info as the written reviews. I'm not sure they should, given what I see as common practice. I've thought many times about donning the wig and wraparound shades to do the videos, but to be honest, I don't want a person-image crowding what my work focuses on. BTW, I download and archive the "all graphs" PDF's and keep the latest 2 copies on my iPad, iPhone, iPod and computers. I use those a lot, and would gladly pay for them if that were needed. Like anything in this world, all of our human learning is by comparison of one thing to another. Every time we think we have a handle on an absolute it gets away from us. Just ask the early 20th century guys about quantum physics. Or as the guys sang on the Spooky II album, "He who knows he knows, knows nothing - and he who knows he knows of nothing, really knows." When it comes to perceptions, I don't see them so different from person to person. We all hear the same things, whether it's the live music when we sit together or the canned stuff on the gear. What's really different are biases and prejudices, bad learning, poor communication, a hundred other things. People who have very different lifestyles from you or me, or who were raised in very different cultures or time periods are usually going to be a challenge to communicate with. The next guys who take over from us will do things a lot differently. But there will be a few crazies who have nothing better to do, and they will dig up our work and analyze it and call it important history.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 23, 2012 23:01:07 GMT
And BTW, I just got a Harman Kardon CL headphone from the Apple store. Brand new, $200 USD, not nearly as good as the ATH M50. So after I "get used to it", what do I do? Pan it and say bye-bye to my $200, or invent some fancy language to say in the review what the real issues are, but wrapper those notes so it looks OK to the manufacturer? After all, I don't want waste anyone's time or just cause bad feelings for prospective customers. I wanna be liked.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2012 6:46:56 GMT
And BTW, I just got a Harman Kardon CL headphone from the Apple store. Brand new, $200 USD, not nearly as good as the ATH M50. I wanna be liked. ;D Deeeep down, you 'may' want to be liked........ ;D They look kinda purty!!! Another $200 on a headphone.... puts the M50 into context doesn't it when you consider its price? Apple are selling so many duff headphones in the UK at high prices and the kids are lapping them up. The Dre things were pretty appalling and I have ...... wiat for it .......a Fanny Wang. Can I tell you that a Fanny is different to and American Fanny!! They're just about usable on a cold sounding Ipod and I can enjoy them, but they're not exactly hi fi!! My excuse is that I was given them by a company!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2012 9:59:47 GMT
My mission, if I'm successful, is to hold up a banner (metaphorically or virtually speaking) that says "Hey, kids, theirs is not the way to happiness. Just like McD's burgers and fries and high fructose corn syrup is bad for your health, those big bass "fun"-fi venues are going to be bad for your high fidelity health, if not your hearing." Since when do kids listen to old folks? Let alone those that want, or feel the need, to correct them 'in their flawed ways'. I say concentrate on those that appreciate a headphone and give your opinion about the gear, warts and all. Improve the world ?, start with yourself I have bought several headphones I didn't like after a while (or even directly). remedy... sell them with a low loss (learning fee) or give them away if not really expensive. When it comes to perceptions, I don't see them so different from person to person. We all hear the same things, whether it's the live music when we sit together or the canned stuff on the gear. What's really different are biases and prejudices, bad learning, poor communication, a hundred other things. Consider this: The soundwaves that reach each individuals ears are the same. The conversion in our ear differs, what's even more different is how our brains (we hear with the brain, the ears are just flawed microphones) perceive/process the sound. Funny thing to me is when someone visits a concert all you hear was, it was fun, it was loud or to soft or, they put up a good show. Never, ever once I heard audiophiles say. Wow those highs were really velvetty, or the placement was excellent (you can see where the sound comes from) or that bass was tight or boomy or comments about the mids and how 'real' and unattached voices were or about separation of the instruments. Let alone all the words that are used in the subjective world. Never once I heard worries being spoken about the usage of the proper cables or opamps and if the right equipment was used. With rock concerts I hear no-one complain about dodgy horntweeters and what not. nah... we don't hear the same even when we are talking about the same gear on a hifi show. Simple experiment for on a hifi-meet: Let everyone who hears a combo fill in a form with questions about the sonic character. Or better yet have them describe the sound in just a few words. It's strenghts and flaws. Very few will fill in the same... Only variable ?... the human perception as a whole. Maybe enough has been said about Tyll and Jude and their ways.
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