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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2012 19:25:46 GMT
BTW, the -20 db dip at 5.5 khz is less than the 1350's dip in that region. You should see the DT48E. That one is far worse and much wider as well. Caused by resonances and break-up of membranes. Have a look at tyll's 2012 graph and see how the M50 peaks at around 15 kHz and falls off fast after that. where as the HD800 rolls off more gently and has more presence above and below 15kHz Also HD800 has no dip at 5kHz giving more HF energy as a whole. So you can hear a sinewave that is on top of that peak (resonance) louder as the HD800 which doesn't have the peak but is much better around all those frequencies and extending further. This would probably only be noticeable with cymbals/hihats being more ; life like' e.t.c. not in most instruments.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2012 19:26:24 GMT
BTW, the -20 db dip at 5.5 khz is less than the 1350's dip in that region. The DT1350 dip is at 7 Khz which coincides with the resonant frequency of most peoples' ears. (6.5 - 7) Having a dip there makes it seem flatter in real life. The M50 is a tiny bit lower. That's the theory, anyway! I can't remember where I read that.....
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 21, 2012 19:52:47 GMT
The DT-48E has a metal driver, and while I can't speak for resonances, I'm very certain there is no breakup, membrane or otherwise. Resonances in the DT-48E are undoubtedly the result of the new "EQ" Beyer standard-issue earpads which lower the sensitivity by 6 to 8 db, in an effort to boost the ends.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 21, 2012 19:57:20 GMT
The DT1350 dip is at 7 Khz which coincides with the resonant frequency of most peoples' ears. (6.5 - 7) Having a dip there makes it seem flatter in real life. The M50 is a tiny bit lower. That's the theory, anyway! I can't remember where I read that..... The M50 works very well in practice in the highs and presence region, excepting some exaggeration of sibilants and other harshness below 10 khz somewhere. If I were reworking the design and I decided to go after some of the lower midrange coloration, I'd probably have to fix the sibilants too. Very tricky to do both.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2012 20:05:23 GMT
Do you use EQ with it Dale?
You're one of the few guys I've seen that does this on a regular basis. I just wondered what you're shifting (if anything on the M50)
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 21, 2012 20:19:34 GMT
Do you use EQ with it Dale? You're one of the few guys I've seen that does this on a regular basis. I just wondered what you're shifting (if anything on the M50) No EQ on the M50 for me. It's not that I wouldn't, but to actually improve it and not just make it worse I would need to use the low-distortion 30-band equalizer I got for Foobar and spend a lot of time getting it set. In fact, I've done this in the past so here would be my plan (if I did it, which I won't): Pick a song with good output across the spectrum, and EQ the M50 to sound exactly like the HD800. Then noting all the slider settings, reduce each one's deviation from zero by half. One exception would be in the highs where myself and many people feel the HD800 is too bright - reduce that brightness a bit and voila! -- M50 EQ.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2012 20:35:08 GMT
Sounds like the white version is improved then. I was interested because I tend to slightly lower the bass (mid bass perhaps a bit more) and I feel the urge to raise the top but mine are older black ones.
I had a look on Amazon and can't see the white ones but I do see an 'S' version and an 'S LE'. All with same FR as the original so I wonder now whether it's more than cosmetic.
Ooops - sorry, just found a white version. It costs a bit more at £143.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2012 21:22:53 GMT
The DT-48E has a metal driver, and while I can't speak for resonances, I'm very certain there is no breakup, membrane or otherwise. Resonances in the DT-48E are undoubtedly the result of the new "EQ" Beyer standard-issue earpads which lower the sensitivity by 6 to 8 db, in an effort to boost the ends. ? Oh.. No breakup in metal domes ? propagation delays in thin (foil type) metals driven from the edge suggests something else. We learn something new every day. Resonances due to ear pads... in the highs ? Differences in damping (the sides/material), seal and trapped air volume and also the shape ...yes there will be influences though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2012 21:26:37 GMT
The color is just cosmetic AFAICT.
All 2012 models (black, silver and white) seem to share the same new driver/housing design/sound. It would be intersting to compare them side by side and see (hear) if there is (much) improvement. There should be in the lows.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 21, 2012 21:45:18 GMT
Here's a little engineering blurb on the DT48 driver:
1. Aluminum driver. No foil like other headphones. 2. Diaphragm embossed with compressed air instead of a stamp. 3. The magnet is also a ring (just like the Tesla drivers). 4. All metal design and construction - nuts and bolts. 5. Diaphragm and magnet are not glued together like the majority of headphones. They are encased in their own metal housing. 6. No plastic or clips. 7. Transducers are hand selected and perfectly matched for optimal balance. (DT48A only**).
"The heart of the DT48 is a heat formed aluminum membrane to which a hand wound moving coil is attached. This assembly is mounted within a housing machined from a solid block of aluminum, which also contains a special high powered magnet assembly held in a machine cut thread. The back cover is also machined from aluminum to such fine tolerances that a perfect hermetic seal is formed.
These have long been used in audiometry. I doubt that this driver would be subject to the kind of breakup or simple flaws that plague cheaper mass-manufactured drivers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 5:29:55 GMT
They are used in audiometry for one simple reason. The production SPREAD is low (very tight tolerances in the production process) and therefore the CORRECTION that is needed/obligatory AND APPLIED in the audiometry gear is always the same be them new or old types. used for a long time or brand new, think break-in would be problematic if the FR was changed over time. As you can see from Tyll's graphs the correction that is needed is even BIGGER than those of normal headphones and it has a bumpy graph. In the used audiometry gear the correction is 'dialed' in resulting in a calibrated FR.
You are free to doubt these would break-up and free to think they are perfectly behaving, but, resonances, break-up (thin aluminum breaks up to albeit at a higher frequency which falls in the audible band) e.t.c are of NO importance in audiometry where only soft tones are used as a signal. Simply look at the graphs, squarewaves, impulse response of your own headphone performed by Tyll. Ofcourse I could be wrong with all my assumptions and the DT48 driver is so good they simply do not dare to apply it in hifi gear as it is too expensive or too good.
They are not intended for audio nor very suited, despite it having some followers that use it for audio simply because it is used professionally. The same goes for profesional HP's with specific traits that are handy in certain circumstances but make lousy hifi phones at the same time. DJ-headphones is the same issue. These are made for a specific purpose and not better because DJ's use them and rave about them. The Aiaiaia TMA-1 is one of those, terribly rolled off yet has a cult of followers claiming its a world class hifi phone because professional DJ-s designed it and they know their stuff. They look for other aspects, foldabilty (so they can listen quickly to one earpiece), sturdy, can handle lots of power when worn around the neck and act as speakers, they don't want any highs, just to hear the beat.
Some HP's that are intended for professional use still sound resonably well to be used as hifi phones. Mostly they have rolled off lows or highs because of thicker voice coils for greater power handling or because it was designed that way (super highs and subsonic lows distract in prof use).
The M50, HD25, HD280 are examples. They can be used and sound good right out of the box without any EQ-ing or modifications, if not better than some other headphones in certain circumstances with certain music. To some they sound best no period, taste/preference or the conviction it is the best as professionals use them or the rolled of highs can not be detected (anymore) or are simply found pleasant.
The M50 is certainly one of the prof targetted headphones that sound good enough to be used for hifi. The white version is intended to 'compete' in the Monster beats market (like the fanny wangs) as they want a slice of that relatively MUCH bigger market than the hifi niche. It does what kids like, warm even thumpy bass and the rolled of highs are no problem when listening to MP3 128k as those formats are bandwidth limited anyway and crappy recordings don't stand out as really crappy but are a bit flattered.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 22, 2012 9:46:27 GMT
Your impression of the DT48 via Tyll's graph is all wrong. The pads on that DT48E were developed in the mid-2000's to give it a more hi-fi sound and have nothing to do with the audiometry sound or the basic design. The audiometry pads are round and very different, and the non-hifi pads (which I don't have a source on) have very different characteristics which have an extremely flat but bass-shy and non-hifi sound. If you haven't heard a DT48 you would not understand. But the posting I made should provide a clue.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 22, 2012 9:54:30 GMT
I have an extremely critical taste in sound, and am offended by "warm" headphones like the Grado PS500, any of the Bose or Beats, the Philips L1 and on down the list. The L1 fortunately corrects to near perfect with bass reduction. The new M50 does not need any correction nor is it "warm" enough to be noticeably so.
I seem to be repeating myself here, so try to understand I've been at this a long time, my hearing is excellent, and I can EQ anything to within less than a db of anything else. The new M50 is not a highly colored headphone or I would not be using it, let alone with no EQ. No EQ at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 10:37:02 GMT
The DT48A is for Audiometry (and VERY low Ohmic) the 48E for sound Engineers (slightly higher Ohmic) and this last one has similar traits as a 7506 for instance where certain emphasis in the FR (it's anything BUT flat) enhance the 'clarity' of instruments so they 'pop out' more.
The 48A is 'flat' till 2kHz and rolled of from there untill it hits a rather big resonance at 9kHz. For audiometry this is no problem for hifi it is less desirable.
The DT48's are no hifi phones nor ever marketed as such. Ofcourse you can listen to music with them and enjoy them for what they do right. But this you can do with any headphone.
There are loads of headphones that can be found with very odd frequency responses that have a cult following and can be/are nice sounding.
The newer ATH-M50 seems better than the 'older' type, certainly in the bass area. Everything above 2kHz seems to be quite similar and only damping seems to have changed in the lows.
Very possible it sounds good without any EQ-ing... many headphones do. It seems to be what most headphones were made for. The old version is quite colored sounding but not in a very negative way to most.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 11:29:17 GMT
Dale Would you please consider leaving off the "By Dale" at the end of your new thread titles ? I can understand the requirement for this with your videos though.I believe that most members here would agree that headphone reviews by Ian , Frans or Miguel have every bit as much credibility as your own.This is a highly subjective area, where much comes down to personal taste, the individuals unique hearing, and the quality of the source material,both technically and musically, as well as the actual equipment used for the auditioning. Miguel for example , although fairly quiet recently, is acknowledged by many members both here and in HeadFi to have an almost Encyclopedic knowledge of headphones.
Alex
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Post by eugenius on Jun 22, 2012 14:06:16 GMT
I don't like the M50 at all, that bass is not tight and not natural, the midrange is not very recessed but it is muddled and the highs are simultaneously recessed AND bright (peaky). They also grip your head too tight. The build quality is as great as you can expect for the price though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 14:17:35 GMT
Probably an old type like the one I have at the moment. Grip fierce, bass a bit overdone (dark), a bit muddying up sometime with certain music and rolled of top end is what I find. Not an unpleasant headphone but not world-class either. Probably good for it's intended purpose.
Time to go under the bonnet and see if I can reduce the bass in a good way.
The newer version may be better. I figure Ian has already ordered a newer model since he has one missing from his stable at the moment.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 22, 2012 15:12:14 GMT
The DT48 A is for Audiometry (and VERY low Ohmic) the 48 E for sound Engineers (slightly higher Ohmic) and this last one has similar traits as a 7506 for instance where certain emphasis in the FR (it's anything BUT flat) enhance the 'clarity' of instruments so they 'pop out' more. The 48A is 'flat' till 2kHz and rolled of from there untill it hits a rather big resonance at 9kHz. For audiometry this is no problem for hifi it is less desirable. The DT48's are no hifi phones nor ever marketed as such. Ofcourse you can listen to music with them and enjoy them for what they do right. But this you can do with any headphone. There are loads of headphones that can be found with very odd frequency responses that have a cult following and can be/are nice sounding. The newer ATH-M50 seems better than the 'older' type, certainly in the bass area. Everything above 2kHz seems to be quite similar and only damping seems to have changed in the lows. Very possible it sounds good without any EQ-ing... many headphones do. It seems to be what most headphones were made for. The old version is quite colored sounding but not in a very negative way to most. If you knew the DT48 you wouldn't say all this. I've had them since 1974 - 6 sets now. They are all identical. The only thing that has changed in the past 38 years (or maybe longer) is the earpads. The round earpads have changed very slightly to make them softer and slightly more comfortable, but hasn't changed the sound with that earpad significantly. The 'A' version uses the round earpads by default, but with oval pads is identical in sound to the 'E' because the driver boxes are identical. The oval earpads have changed quite a bit, with the later versions lowering the sensitivity of the DT48 quite a bit to boost the bass and treble, quite noticeably. EDIT: In spite of the 5 ohm to 25 ohm impedance, no difference. Same sound. You may hear a difference depending on what you drive them with if a bad enough mismatch occurs, but with proper driving they are the same driver, same sound.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 15:57:23 GMT
A nice piece of acoustic wadding? I wonder if that's what it boils down to with the white one? Or even a dash of 'tarmac' on the inside of the cups to deaden them right down? Frans, bash your teeth together while wearing them - are you getting any ringing from the headband? Lowering the bass might give the impression that it's more extended (Like the Sony makes you 'think' it is when in fact it's pretty limited) With the Sony, it sounds like there's too much treble and yet it's not as extended as many other headphones. However, it is useful for spotting problems and I like it for that. For music - yuk!! You know what Frans, I haven't bothered about a white M50!! I am really happy with the ones I currently use as my main home headphones now. They hit a good balance between analytical (which I tend to like) and musical (which really makes the headphone for me) After searching for a long time for a good closed headphone, I think for me, I hit the jackpot twice with the K550 and the DT1350. I think the K550 is a bargain rather similar to the K601. Both are selling at good prices for the quality that you get - especially K601. £180 for a K550 is really good value. (Richer Sounds) I think K601 is in the shadow of K701 but I really prefer the 601. Actually, the K550 made the M50 seem so inferior for home use to me that I was wondering whether you'd feel the same when you heard it and whether it was just me being picky. I don't mind it and it's very pleasant sounding but for another £50 you can get a K550 and it's no K550. A lack of extension isn't a worry to work with but at home, I prefer a good, wide ranging honest headphone. The K550 is a lovely headphone and I don't really feel the need to get another closed one. The weird variations in reports I think, could be due to fit problems. (Just like the DT1350) I seem to fit the 1350 really well and the bass response is 'thunderous' and yet I've read reports of thinness!! Same with the K550. The M50 has been pretty stable in its reviews by other reviewers though so I guess most are happy with them. The only thing I'm curious about is what the changes are in the white one and what prompted AT to quietly change it. Dale, I also think you may hear differently to me as well. (As we all probably do) I read your review of the DT1350 on Headphone Review and it's not actually what I'm getting, so it could be to do with head/ear shape. I got the impression that you weren't too fussed but I find them quite an amazing mini headphone. Best I've heard actually and so unassuming when you first hear them. I have also been aware that American and European tastes in speakers and headphones do seem to vary quite a bit. I think Europeans veer towards a slightly thinner sound more than USA guys. So what a USA guy calls normal seems fat to a European!! I don't mean that in a derogatory way but in the 70's when all the Europeans were buying Linn/Naim and Cyrus stuff, I remember American reviewers criticising the lack of bass and as for lack of bass in speakers ....... The UK people went on about P.R.A.T. Some of the American speakers at that time were HUGE and produced big bass while we were all using bookshelf speakers or (Cyrus speakers) which were more top orientated. Or that BBC thing that's so insensitive - can't remember the name of what they developed, but it didn't feature big bass. This is also probably due to the fact that people in the UK tend to have smaller rooms. Descriptions could well vary depending on where we come from!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 16:12:23 GMT
Hi Ian,
It looks like I have the bass lowered to 'normal' levels in just a few 'iterations/attempts'. Have to do some playing with the technique (the same as used in the HD238 by blocking off holes that are used for the backwave) Less muddy and yet still deep bass but I am still tinkering with it.
For now it's a lot better yet the roll-off can't be helped (perhaps with an EQ as it does extend but rolls off) When I am finished with it I will post a tutorial.
Easy to do, it only takes a screwdriver, some putty (I used eraser, the type you can mould, from my son) and a bit of pillow filling wool. No soldering required ! You should try it on one of your M50's and then compare to an unmodded one. Once I have modified it I have to rely on memory... this is bound to give problems and the reference disappears more or less of how it was.
One FINAL word about the DT48. It being constant over the years in quality and sound is EXACTLY what it MUST do. No spread between them over time and the CORRECTION it needs can be set in stone, thus no need to recalibrate if a HP is changed.
Feel free to regard them as a reference if you like.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 22, 2012 16:38:58 GMT
One FINAL word about the DT48. It being constant over the years in quality and sound is EXACTLY what it MUST do. No spread between them over time and the CORRECTION it needs can be set in stone, thus no need to recalibrate if a HP is changed. Feel free to regard them as a reference if you like. Your posts sounded like you were an authority on the DT48, yet I get the impression now that you knew almost nothing about them. Certainly Tyll knows nothing about them, and other than liking to dink with electronics, Tyll doesn't know much about sound either.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 22, 2012 16:41:03 GMT
"Dale, I also think you may hear differently to me as well. (As we all probably do) I read your review of the DT1350 on Headphone Review and it's not actually what I'm getting, so it could be to do with head/ear shape. I got the impression that you weren't too fussed but I find them quite an amazing mini headphone. Best I've heard actually and so unassuming when you first hear them."
It doesn't matter that we hear different, since we are listening to the same things. I know exactly what your impressions are and why, and they fit perfectly with my experience. I can get exactly (or near exactly) what you get simply by pressing the earcups closer to my head.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 17:15:55 GMT
Oh, OK ... I got the impression you were a little underwhelmed. It's more to do with fit? I just tested exactly how well they fit and I moved them around and it does indeed make a lot of difference. I seem to have a 'sweet spot' where it snaps into focus. I also hear the air going out of the pads as they go down on my ears so they really do seal well on my lugs! In fact, I'm sitting hear with the wife playing (my) electric piano quite loud in the room while I can easily listen on them and not be aware of her too much at all. They focus quite low down in volume for me. I think the fit is one of the problems for K550. You can be wearing them, completely oblivious to the fact that the seal is broken at the back because the cups are so big and then feel that they are edgy and have no bass. Another closed Headphone I'd like to hear is the Roland RH-300. I do like some of the Edirol gear and actually use some of their monitor speakers for my TV. Metal drivers and sound fine for their price. (Not forgetting their legendary drum machines and Phil Collins extensive use of them!!!) I'm really interested in how you find the K701 and the ad700. I had problems with the K701 sound and I tried so hard to get the amping right but just couldn't stick with them for long. Put your gumshield in for the K701....
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 22, 2012 17:24:01 GMT
I'm not even going to try the AD700 and K701 until new pads arrive, then I'll jump on them. Someone in the UK just coerced me into buying a FiiO E17, and I also ordered the Audioengine D1 DAC/amp combo, so will be very busy with that. I finally figured out today how to get 96 khz out of Windows 7.
Does anyone remember the premise of Mac and Windows being "Easier to use, don't need the book?" After fighting with Apple's "Snow-Job" O/S and this piece of crap called Windows 7, it seems clear(!) to me that the O/S guys are marching backwards.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 17:43:38 GMT
There is only ONE authority on the DT48 in all its forms, shapes and sizes (perhaps even headphones in general) that I know of. It's a bloke called 'Dale Thorn' or something. He even has his own website ! Whenever you google 'DT48' his name pops up all over the screen. And I thought he was a computer programmer... Just teasing with a sound hint of sarcasm I noticed Tyll was not impressed by the sound nor it's measurements and believe he tried judging from the many attempts to get it to measure anywhere near half decent. Might that 'incident' have something to do with you finding him to know liitle to nothing about sound as it was your headphone he measured ? In most cases I can find myself in Tyll's findings, but sometimes I have a different opinion. Who doesn't ? You got me there b.t.w..... I am no authority at all, just have a set of ears and a soldering iron... hence the name 'solderdude' that was bestowed on me by an old friend. I also like to dink with electronics and headphones which won't reflect well on me as it also doesn't for Tyll. Anyway.. back to trying to get the old M50 version to sound more like I expect the newer version to sound. Based on not hearing the new version that is b.t.w. but by an 'educated quess/assumptions'. That's what this thread is about I thought.
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