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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 9:35:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 9:35:47 GMT
MF X-can V2 and V3 appear to have 33 Ohm output resistance.
The X-can V1 appears to have 47 Ohm output resistance.
The V-Can appears to be 5 Ohm.
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 10:10:22 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 28, 2012 10:10:22 GMT
MF X-can V3 appears to have either 22 Ohm or 33 Ohm output resistance. Thank you. 22 or 33 Ohm doesn't seem to be optimum for driving AKG K701.
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 10:32:48 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 10:32:48 GMT
That's possibly why I don't like the K701 too much.
I enjoyed it for a while because of its 'ringing' clarity but soon felt the lack of bass sucked the music out of it.
I put it onto a Panda with 120 ohms out and that improved it, but for me, it was always skewed and I fought with it for a long time.
In the end,, I noticed with some music that there was a 'ring' in the treble somewhere. I think it's quite high up. Once I knew it was there, I couldn't stop myself listening to it and not the music.
That made it a useless headphone for me. Even now, I go back to it and still hear that shrill peak up there.
I got hold of a K601. I was very skeptical because it was an AKG but this one, I can really live with.
It retains the top end clarity of the K701 and is slightly warmer sounding. To my ears, it feels quite flat and some would find it a kind of 'undynamic' listen since there's no special bass and no tingling treble. To me, it's spot on.
Sometimes I crave a bit more bass so go to Senn HD650 or 600, but generally, the K601 seems right to me.
It works better from the MF V2, V1 and V8 although I would like a 120 ohm out for it ideally. Fran's C.H.A.M.P. would do that beautifully while also being able to return to low output impedance for other 'dull' sounding headphones.
I am really curious about the K550. I have a suspicion that it is very good, but it would be quite an expensive mistake.
I have a feeling though, that I would like it and I have been looking for a very long time for a good closed headphone that is comfortable to wear as well as having a less coloured sound than most closed headphones.
So I can take ot leave the K701 but really like the K601, which just shows how small the differences are between headphones that can make you love or hate them!!
The K601 is very close, but imo, better!!
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 10:34:29 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 10:34:29 GMT
MF X-can V3 appears to have either 22 Ohm or 33 Ohm output resistance. Thank you. 22 or 33 Ohm doesn't seem to be optimum for driving AKG K701. It can be changed to have 120 Ohm output resistance by simply replacing 2 resistors
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 10:48:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 10:48:06 GMT
Frans, would that not suck the dynamic attack out of it? If I do that with lesser amps, they lose their mojo!!
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 12:32:07 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 12:32:07 GMT
I think the MF can deliver enough voltage. Voltage is what's needed to be able to support a high output resistance. Javier has had succes with it (is a V1 but suspect they have about the same output voltage).
When you had the impedance gizmo did you try it on the V2 or V8 ?
For 9V fed C'Moys and driving straight out of portable gear the 120 Ohm is too high and SPL would drop too much and indeed as you mention all life would be sucked out. More exact description would be; it wouldn't be able to bring life into the HP
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 14:47:35 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 14:47:35 GMT
I did try it with the V8 but it seemed pretty low to me. The Volume knob is quite large so it may have seemed more than it actually was, but I seem to remember that I was easily going past 12 o' clock on the AKG's with the adapter in line.
It did calm it down a little though.
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 15:07:14 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 28, 2012 15:07:14 GMT
What is it that makes 120 Ohm the optimum output impedance?
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 15:19:05 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 15:19:05 GMT
120 Ohm is just a standard (not widely used nor widely adopted) but some headphones benefit. 100 Ohm will also do. Whether a HP reacts positively to high- or low-Ohmic amps is HP dependent. Some HP's sound best on low Ohmic amps some sound better on higher Ohmic amps. This depends on how they were designed and personal preference. An amplifier with a low output resistance usually has a low output VOLTAGE. To get enough power from a high-Ohmic amp it needs to have a relatively high output VOLTAGE. because of this not every amplifier can have a high output resistance retro-fitted. The output resistance is not an impedance MATCHING thing it simply does it's job by voltage division which is frequency dependent. More on this here: www.mediafire.com/?82kf0r5kdckdcerand here: www.mediafire.com/?jdpaj1r17x1sos5
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 15:36:30 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 28, 2012 15:36:30 GMT
Thank you solderdude.
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 16:41:17 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 16:41:17 GMT
Basically, the tonal balance of the headphone is at its optimum for some headphones at 120 ohms out and the K701 is one of them.
Once you get 120 ohms out, there's a subtle difference in the way that the treble behaves and you feel that there is a tad more weight in the bass.
However, I still prefer the K601.
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 17:40:34 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 28, 2012 17:40:34 GMT
Basically, the tonal balance of the headphone is at its optimum for some headphones at 120 ohms out and the K701 is one of them. Once you get 120 ohms out, there's a subtle difference in the way that the treble behaves and you feel that there is a tad more weight in the bass. However, I still prefer the K601. I see, thank you. I heard k601 a couple of months ago and I liked them too but I think k701 are a bit better to my ear. I haven't done a direct comparision between the two but I remember that k601 reminded me of my hd650
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 17:43:15 GMT
Post by dalethorn on Mar 28, 2012 17:43:15 GMT
That 120 ohm thing was something Beyer quoted for decades for their DT-48 series. I've had 5 DT-48's - DT48S, DT48A, DT48E, DT48(no alpha) times 2, and never noticed a difference. The originals had so little bass that no amp helped that.
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 17:51:14 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 17:51:14 GMT
The DT48 all have very linear impedance graphs so they shouldn't sound any different. The K701 and many other HP's do have varying impedances. It's a voltage division thing. The HD650 likes low Ohmic amps. The HD600 likes high Ohmic amps. DT48.... more 'proof' the damping factor is NOT of importance, if it was they would have sounded quite different. Let's hope NwAvGuy and Tyll don't find out. ;D
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 19:04:45 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 28, 2012 19:04:45 GMT
33 Ohm is quite high, isn't it?
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 19:27:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 19:27:45 GMT
100 to 120 Ohm is considered high. 0 to 10 Ohm is considered low.
For people like NwAvGuy 33 Ohm is unacceptably high and this amp must sound awfull. To drive a K701 (and some other HP's) it is rather low.
The 33 Ohm is there to act like a (cheap) current limiter for these particular amps.
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 19:31:14 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 19:31:14 GMT
Now that's an eye opener. I never knew that!! Not many people would be aware of two seemingly similar headphones needing different outputs like that.
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 20:19:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 20:19:06 GMT
The HD650 has a marginally lifted bass and gently rolled of treble but not lacking any. The HD600 is 'flatter', marginally less midlows and more (flatter) treble part.
When the HD600 (HD580) is driven from 120 Ohm the highs are slightly lowered and the bass (mid bass) is slightly emphasized bringing it closer to a HD650 when this one (HD650) is driven from a low Ohmic amp. If you were to drive the HD650 from 120 Ohm bass is even more accentuated and highs even more subdued, so this HP (at least I think so) prefers low Ohmic amps.
We are talking a few dB differences max here but a trained listener can hear this. Even in a true A-B test one can hear these differences.
If you have both, give it a try (I did and have both HD650 and modded HD580). You can use a Panda for 120 Ohm and a Neco for 0 Ohm.
If you keep this in the back of your mind when reading reviews things get clearer about certain statements made about these HP's that are (likely) to be caused by using amps where the output resistance is 'unknown'.
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elysion
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AKG
Mar 28, 2012 22:16:10 GMT
Post by elysion on Mar 28, 2012 22:16:10 GMT
I have HD580's (with the old driver variant) and HD650's (with the newer driver variant).
No doubt: The HD650's like low ohmic amps like the Neco's.
I have no amp around with 100/120 Ohm output impedance, but IMO the HD580's also like the low ohmic Neco's. At least the HD580's sound best with the Neco amps. The result is quite similar to the HD650's, but the HD650's are certainly better with the Neco's.
Sennheiser has used at least two different driver generations (we've had a thread about that) with the HD580/600/650's. My HD650's have the newer drivers, the HD580's have the older drivers.
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mrarroyo
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AKG
Mar 29, 2012 10:04:13 GMT
Post by mrarroyo on Mar 29, 2012 10:04:13 GMT
Love both my K501 and K1000, among my favorite top 3 cans.
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 6:20:20 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 30, 2012 6:20:20 GMT
I don't think k701 sounded overly bright or that bass was missing when driven by my x-can v3. The sound was pretty balanced, slightly on the warm side. I liked the presentation of the mids more on the k701 then on my hd650. The mids on the HD650 sound like being awashed by the bass. There is kind of "woolly" character to the sound when compared to k701. What I miss with the k701 is authority in male voices (only compared to hd650). Voices sound fine nevertheless.
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 7:00:55 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 7:00:55 GMT
Your ears have probably adjusted to them so you don't notice. Move to other headphones and they may seem 'dull' for you.
The K601 is a great compromise for me. It's a less strident version of the K701 and can be bought for very low prices. It's kind of halfway between the HD600 and K701 in terms of timbre.
I guess I find them fatiguing since I use a DT150 all day at work or an M50 and they're not built to have a stinging treble so that they are comfortable to listen to for long periods.
The HD650 is good at high volumes for me. The K701 at low. The difference with 120 ohm makes the K701 a little more easy for my ears. It just shaves the top away by a fraction and gives the impression of slight more 'roundness' in the bass.
Having said that, if I want to compare hi fi gear, it's the K701 that points every flaw out. So I generally use the K701 to try/review gear but for enjoyment, for me it's something else.
I really want to try the K550 - a closed headphone that may sound slightly 'K601 like.'
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 8:18:04 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 30, 2012 8:18:04 GMT
Your ears have probably adjusted to them so you don't notice. Move to other headphones and they may seem 'dull' for you. The K601 is a great compromise for me. It's a less strident version of the K701 and can be bought for very low prices. It's kind of halfway between the HD600 and K701 in terms of timbre. I guess I find them fatiguing since I use a DT150 all day at work or an M50 and they're not built to have a stinging treble so that they are comfortable to listen to for long periods. The HD650 is good at high volumes for me. The K701 at low. The difference with 120 ohm makes the K701 a little more easy for my ears. It just shaves the top away by a fraction and gives the impression of slight more 'roundness' in the bass. Having said that, if I want to compare hi fi gear, it's the K701 that points every flaw out. So I generally use the K701 to try/review gear but for enjoyment, for me it's something else. I really want to try the K550 - a closed headphone that may sound slightly 'K601 like.' I am comparing directly to hd650. 701 are not "colored" if that is what you mean by being "dull". They are, to my ears absolutely not dull compared to hd650. It is quite the contrary.
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 8:26:26 GMT
Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 30, 2012 8:26:26 GMT
Now that's an eye opener. I never knew that!! Not many people would be aware of two seemingly similar headphones needing different outputs like that. Try the HD-600 on the V8 Ian..... nice
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 8:54:21 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 30, 2012 8:54:21 GMT
Try the HD-600 on the V8 Ian..... nice Mike, what is your opinon about k701? Do you like them?
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