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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 9:13:09 GMT
Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 30, 2012 9:13:09 GMT
Try the HD-600 on the V8 Ian..... nice Mike, what is your opinon about k701? Do you like them? I had a pair for about 6 months and couldn't get on with them.... I loved them at first (I think it was their looks) but the flaws soon started to creep in, in particular the airy fairy bass... I like mine deep and realistic, the K-701 just didn't make my toenails curl. The soundstage / headstage / soundscape (whatever you want to call it) is excellent, that was a real plus point with the K-701 but the lack of "meaty" bass meant they spent more time off my head than on it. All down to individual taste though, some people call the K-701 bass "neutral" (each to their own) not for me though... if you could strap a sub into them then they may be more fun
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 10:16:26 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 10:16:26 GMT
I experienced the same.
They are considered neutral but they are not and have a small peak in the upper treble and lack bass extension.
So in the end they went for the same reason after a couple of months. As Ian says, a high ouput resistance helps a bit but not enough to make a big difference, big enough for me to keep them that is.
Indeed whether you like them is a matter of individual taste.
I liked the K501 better but this one has even less bass extension.
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toad
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 11:59:53 GMT
Post by toad on Mar 30, 2012 11:59:53 GMT
Bass on the 701s has more extension than any other can in my collection including some cans that Mike raves about. Unfortunately many of us seem to be using a couple of cans and a bit of wet string for a source so we can't appreciate the depth the 701s can reach. To quote from an online review: "I’ve heard better bass from a few speakers, but not many, and most of them are in the $40,000-and-above price range." Review below. www.soundstage.com/allinyourhead/allinyourhead200607.htm
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 12:58:46 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 12:58:46 GMT
a matter of taste and not absolute truth. One prefers this, someone else prefers that... The K701 is a good headphone. Just not THE best for every one. some independant measurements where the lack of bass extension and peak in the highs aren't visbile ;D en.goldenears.net/4138It's not untill you heard HP's with real bass extension and the absence of the treble peak untill you know what you are missing out for. Problem again is.. not everyone likes that sound or is willing/able to spend the money on it. en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=GR_Headphones&document_srl=11561
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Nigel
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 13:30:29 GMT
Post by Nigel on Mar 30, 2012 13:30:29 GMT
AKG have made some of the very best headphones over the years, without a shadow of a doubt.
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 13:44:49 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 30, 2012 13:44:49 GMT
... if you could strap a sub into them then they may be more fun hehe I only have HD650 to compare them with. HD650 are just too "thick" to me.
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xerxes
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 13:44:56 GMT
Post by xerxes on Mar 30, 2012 13:44:56 GMT
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 13:56:18 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 13:56:18 GMT
AKG have made some of the very best headphones over the years, without a shadow of a doubt. Indeed they have. Just like Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, Audio Technica, Denon (Foster), Audez'e, HiFiMAN, Sony, Stax, Shure and Grado did... (to name but a few)
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 14:01:26 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 14:01:26 GMT
... if you could strap a sub into them then they may be more fun hehe I only have HD650 to compare them with. HD650 are just too "thick" to me. If you don't like the Sennheiser sound and do like the AKG sound you can also shop around for AudioTechnica (AD series), Shure SRH940/SRH1840 and Grado line for instance. The K701 does have more bass extension than the one above though. The HD800, or some Stax might also be appealing though a bit pricey .
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toad
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 14:07:37 GMT
Post by toad on Mar 30, 2012 14:07:37 GMT
a matter of taste and not absolute truth. One prefers this, someone else prefers that... The K701 is a good headphone. Just not THE best for every one. some independant measurements where the lack of bass extension and peak in the highs aren't visbile ;D en.goldenears.net/4138It's not untill you heard HP's with real bass extension and the absence of the treble peak untill you know what you are missing out for. Problem again is.. not everyone likes that sound or is willing/able to spend the money on it. en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=GR_Headphones&document_srl=11561I find it slightly ironic that the site you link with your independent measurements is called "Golden Ears" Surely "Golden Oscillioscopes" or "Golden Graphs" would be a better name for them? Personally I tend to use my ears rather than graphs. It may have escaped your notice but graphs are something you look at. Eyes are entirely the wrong organ to apprectiate music with unless you can read music.
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 14:36:29 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 30, 2012 14:36:29 GMT
If you don't like the Sennheiser sound and do like the AKG sound you can also shop around for AudioTechnica (AD series), Shure SRH940/SRH1840 and Grado line for instance. The K701 does have more bass extension than the one above though. The HD800, or some Stax might also be appealing though a bit pricey . Isn't it much simpler to buy AKG if I like AKG sound? I have heard Grado and I didn't think Grado sounded like AKG.
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 14:44:48 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 30, 2012 14:44:48 GMT
[ I find it slightly ironic that the site you link with your independent measurements is called "Golden Ears" Surely "Golden Oscillioscopes" or "Golden Graphs" would be a better name for them? Personally I tend to use my ears rather than graphs. It may have escaped your notice but graphs are something you look at. Eyes are entirely the wrong organ to apprectiate music with unless you can read music. I am also little sceptical as to how a frequency response for example can show us the real behaviour of a headphone. Frequency response is a headphone's response to distinct frequencies (one at a time). In the real world an audio signal is composed of an "infinite" number of frequencies at a given time. Different headphones handle this "frequency mess" differently.
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 14:46:38 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 14:46:38 GMT
It may have escaped you, but when you know HOW to read ALL the graphs and interpret the 'subjective' paragraph 6, which is done with (Golden ?) ears, it provides valuable information with which people who know how to interpret them can pretty much deduct how they sound/perform. Not everyone knows how to interpret/combine the info all different graphs/plots give and thus find it meaningless or even irrelevant. I find the graphs on this site to have a very correlation with my ears and GE's (paragraph 6) audible findings as well. Coincidence or something else ? I agree eyes are not to be used for audio. Funnily enough with subjective listening tests the input the eyes give seems to be underestimated. Ofcourse if you like the AKG sound buying that is easiest. I was merely pointing at HP's brands that have some similar traits. That doesn't mean they sound similar. Many of the AKG headphones themselves also sound quite different. a matter of preference and taste... that's all.
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 14:49:55 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 30, 2012 14:49:55 GMT
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 14:52:24 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 30, 2012 14:52:24 GMT
I find the graphs on this site to have a very correlation with my ears and GE's (paragraph 6) audible findings as well. Coincidence or something else ? Maybe you are just under impression of what you see when you listen?
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 15:00:29 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 15:00:29 GMT
Does anyone know if manufacturers like AKG, Sennheiser, etc. design their products trusting their ears and disregard mesurements and graphs?
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 15:03:43 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 15:03:43 GMT
That is correct I can come up with plenty more that also differ (headroom/Tyll) this has to do with the correction used (HRTF) and used gear (output impedance, microphone, how it is measured) In order to read/interpret all those graphs it is important to know HOW the measurements are made, what correction type is used and WHY. The linked plot says nothing about low extension b.t.w. as it stops below 100Hz. This is why most people simply do not believe in graphs (because of lack of correlation) and simply disregard the measurements. I admit you have to have specific knowledge about these things for them to become meaningfull. Graphs (mostly freq plots alone) don't say much if anything at all when only looked at those.
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XTRProf
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 15:03:55 GMT
Post by XTRProf on Mar 30, 2012 15:03:55 GMT
Does anyone know if manufacturers like AKG, Sennheiser, etc. design their products trusting their ears and disregard mesurements and graphs? Oh, yes, Grado!
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 15:20:55 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 15:20:55 GMT
So the product specs in their website are just guesswork made up numbers?
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 15:35:54 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 15:35:54 GMT
I don't think any manufacturer would ignore measurements tbh. Although I rely on my lugs mostly, I am always happy to see the measurements and how they compare with what I'm hearing or at least with what I 'think' I'm hearing.
Measurements aren't the be all and end all and neither are the lugs. I think common sense would involve both.
I also find it very interesting how people who like AKG type sound mention how rolled off the Senns are and Senn enthusuasts go on about the searing treble on the AKG's.
It also depends what you're using them for I think. I wouldn't want to use the AKG house sound for long term listening since I would veer towards a rolled off top rather like Beyer DT150.
However, for analytical listening, you can't beat the K701. Analytical listening though isn't music to many people and to others, it's what hi fi is about.
L like both the AKG and the Senns but for different reasons and one isn't 'better' than the other imo. I hear no less on the Senns than I do on the K701 or the K601.
They do 'focus'and different volume levels though. For me, the Senn snaps into focus at higher volumes and the AKG's at lower volume.
Both give good bass slam, but different amounts.
It surprises me how protective AKG guys are though in particular. Audio Technicas are a nice 'in between' sound .......
I like the ad700 and the a900. (Although they don't really go that deep into the bass either)
I tried really hard with the AKG's for a long time - swapping amps etc and burning them in. (I think they need a blowtorch) I go on and off them so I'm afraid I'm a headphone tart. I use so many, I don't get particularly attached to anything any more.
None of them are spot on for me!! K501 is one I wish I'd tried when it was available.
Frans, that site, 'Golden Ears' is very interesting. Is that peak at 10k on the K701 the one that I was detecting? Up there?
I compared the K601 and the K701 directly and differences are quite small. Yet the K601 feels flatter in FR to me. There seems to be just one small difference up in the treble where the second peak isn't as much as the K701 but they are both very close in all of the graphs.
The 10K hump seems to dominate the K701 in comparison. What surprises me is how sensitive I am to it at that pitch. I just tried again with the K701 and now I've heard it, I can't take my 'focus' away from it so I find it really flawed as a result. It's not until you know what you're listening for that it becomes a major barrier to the enjoyment of the headphone.
Can that hump be filtered out?
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 22:20:01 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 22:20:01 GMT
The problem is there are 2 humps closely spaced together. I have designed a filter for it (it can be found in the usual place) but still need feedback if it gives the desired effect. Since I don't have one anymore I can't hear it for myself. It only adresses the highest peak as the lower one isn't that big a problem for most. The 120 Ohm does take away (I liked your term shaved off) a slight portion but not in the target area. The filter should work but might need some tweaking by ears. Since not all ears hear the same, and especially those 2 peaks are very dependent on ear canal shape and thus may be more or less 'audible' for some. It isn't peaked treble you hear just more like over-emphasized things in cymbals e.t.c.. To me it's unnatural...appealing the first few weeks but a tad unnatural or should I say artificial. K601 is better in that aspect but less in other aspects (bass extension) GE also has graphs of this one and it confirms what you found by ear. en.goldenears.net/8449For some (with other ear canal properties/taste/preference) the peaks might not be audible/annoying at all, unless you are made aware. I hope someone who has built the filter gives me feedback how to improve it.
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XTRProf
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AKG
Mar 30, 2012 23:47:49 GMT
Post by XTRProf on Mar 30, 2012 23:47:49 GMT
So the product specs in their website are just guesswork made up numbers? Oh, those numbers are just to keep potential customers aware of what their products can do in keeping up with the objectivist mentality and also to keep up with the "Jones" competitors. As we know, Grado has a signature sound which our dear Mr Grado and company believe that is the sound people are after to sell their products. They even has that retro look from decades of not changing their style. If based on their frequency response graphs, and all of them are similar for almost all their HPs until now, I'm very sure they know that their HPs based on those graphs are not competitive enough. However, they obviously choose not to alter or "improve" on that after so many years as there is a cult following for that Grado sound. If we look at the mode pages fo HP forums, which brand has such a wide array of modes and upmarket accessories? Also, which people don't talk of the Grado sound and that Mr Grado designs things based on subjective more than objective? So it's back to the mastering engineer video that I posted in another thread. Of course, I look at objectives too but that doesn't mean much if they doesn't sound good to anyone. As we can see here, there is a disagreement of what is "good" or "not good" of the AKG. But that doesn't mean that it didn't sell. In fact, it sold like hotcake after some reviews come out but now after the initial reactions had piped down and people came back down to earth and their senses, there is an overwhelming WTS in the classified. Yeah, SENSES and after some months as there is no way that we can know a product well until we have lived with it for some time. Definitely, not by some specs as the objectivists want us to believe. If so perfect, why enmass selling now? ;D Yeah, even the objectivists sold! So there is just not right or wrong but righter to whoever. As it is, Mr Grados choose to voice their products to the Grado sound and Status Quo there and there is a cult following just like Linn or Naim that matter most. Nothing else matters anymore. Products only sell if there is a cult following based on what people like and not some damn specs that engineers will like us to believe is "perfect". Try designing a thing from a product management point of view based only on objectivist engineers "perfect vision" solutions. I can guarantee it wouldn't sell if people don't like it. My boss is travelling the world evangelising my company products thru many roadshows and gathering feedbacks from the crowds. No different from many sellers that evangelise in all forums. Might as well tell the crowds the company engineers already have the "perfect" solutions for them. Bye, bye, don't need to go on an evangelising mission any more for him. Much easier time for him too. But then, he could be fired too by the board of directors like what he had done to others.
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 2:54:00 GMT
Post by dalethorn on Mar 31, 2012 2:54:00 GMT
I would guess the big headphone makers have most of the tech down to a tightly controlled science. Doesn't anyone find it interesting that Shure and Sennheiser both chose 40 mm drivers for their new $700 USD and $1000 USD headphones? That's a lot of money for 40 mm drivers. Sure, they have their proprietary tweaks and housings, but I'm guessing those 40 mm drivers, even if they're made 10,000 miles apart, are probably very similar. I would guess too that all of these manufacturers probably have all of the competitors' top models torn down to see what kinds of materials and techniques they use to control resonances etc. I'd bet if we put three good techs together from this forum who aren't employed by an audio manufacturer, and with modest funding get them access to a common pool of headphone parts, they could produce a decent headphone design in a couple of months.
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XTRProf
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 5:10:03 GMT
Post by XTRProf on Mar 31, 2012 5:10:03 GMT
I would guess the big headphone makers have most of the tech down to a tightly controlled science. Doesn't anyone find it interesting that Shure and Sennheiser both chose 40 mm drivers for their new $700 USD and $1000 USD headphones? That's a lot of money for 40 mm drivers. Sure, they have their proprietary tweaks and housings, but I'm guessing those 40 mm drivers, even if they're made 10,000 miles apart, are probably very similar. I would guess too that all of these manufacturers probably have all of the competitors' top models torn down to see what kinds of materials and techniques they use to control resonances etc. I'd bet if we put three good techs together from this forum who aren't employed by an audio manufacturer, and with modest funding get them access to a common pool of headphone parts, they could produce a decent headphone design in a couple of months. Heh, heh, Dale .............. We had been long enough in the manufacturing sector to know better and the cover up in product BOMs to get millions out for the company shareholders to say that. Yup, I concur with what you had just written. Hey, we should get back to manufacturing to make $$$$ for ourselves and not the shareholders. Heh, heh, joint venture.
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 7:34:08 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 31, 2012 7:34:08 GMT
It isn't peaked treble you hear just more like over-emphasized things in cymbals e.t.c.. To me it's unnatural...appealing the first few weeks but a tad unnatural or should I say artificial. K601 is better in that aspect but less in other aspects (bass extension) GE also has graphs of this one and it confirms what you found by ear. en.goldenears.net/8449For some (with other ear canal properties/taste/preference) the peaks might not be audible/annoying at all, unless you are made aware. I hope someone who has built the filter gives me feedback how to improve it. Hi! Have you actually heard this by comparing different headphones to eachother or do you solely rely on the graphs ppresented on GoldenEars? I personally don't hear anything artificial in the sound of k701. On the other hand I think that my HD650 sound artificial (colored) all the way through the frequency spectrum. I miss the extension in the string instruments, I miss overtones, human voices sound "veiled" and the treble is "unnaturally" rounded off. There is no real life in the cymbals, brass or woods. So, for the music I like HD650 is not the right headphone. Here I don't speak about frequency response graphs but what I actually hear with my ears. I can of course refer to the frequency response graphs on the page that I linked to in my earlier post where the measured frequency response of the new k701 is quite even.
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