Deleted
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 7:24:19 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2012 7:24:19 GMT
en.goldenears.net/5351 ATH W1000X notice par 6 and how it nicely follows the green line. (I just included the graph because it's april fools day. ;D ) Seeing there is very little recorded music that goes much below 50HZ ,especially since most typical domestic speakers these days can't even reproduce 50 HZ well, and very low frequencies are more felt than heard,(except perhaps with some valve amplifiers) who gives a tinkers cuss for that extended green line ?
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XTRProf
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Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 7:44:38 GMT
Post by XTRProf on Apr 1, 2012 7:44:38 GMT
who gives a tinkers cuss for that extended green line ? Your 2 balls, man! Heh, heh, heh ......... That can only be somehwat created by a full range speakerfi system. HP no way, man! No matter what the graph tells us. Happy April Fool Day everyone ...................
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 7:55:00 GMT
Post by dragan on Apr 1, 2012 7:55:00 GMT
slightly off topic, but still AKG related: does anyone know anything about this photograph: apart from the obvious. Who made the photograph, why and when? Is it official AKG poster, or...
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Deleted
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 8:39:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2012 8:39:06 GMT
Exactly ! Only a full range loudspeaker system can be felt through your body at much lower than 50HZ. Try playing a pure 25 to 30HZ sinewave at a reasonable level through a good amplifier and speakers, and see how much you can hear, rather than feel. You may even feel it through your feet from the floorboards. Any real contribution from headphones at low frequencies is more likely to be "value added" distortion, including perhaps frequency doubling and headphone amplifier artifacts.
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xerxes
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 9:44:06 GMT
Post by xerxes on Apr 1, 2012 9:44:06 GMT
Testing with a frequency generator program on my PC I was able to hear frequencies down to around 35Hz with headphones. More alarmingly, I was not able to hear much above 15Khz. Most bookshelf/monitor/stand mount type speakers only get down to around 40 to 50Hz, but most floor standers will go a bit lower and lets not forget sub woofers that are a lot more popular now than a few decades ago. With regard to recordings, the bottom note on a 4 string electric bass is around 41Hz, so most traditional guitar and drum rock and pop may not go that low, but stuff with synthesisers like dance and electronica may go lower. Also electronic music can be recorded direct to digital with no limitations from microphones or room acoustics. Certainly the "bassiest" recordings I have are dance and electronica stuff, things like Shpongle, Propellerheads, Massive Attack, Kraftwerk etc.
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toad
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I am the Super Toad, the Original Toad, the Whole Toad and nothing BUT the toad.... don't forget it!
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 10:34:35 GMT
Post by toad on Apr 1, 2012 10:34:35 GMT
The AKG K701s are the only headphone I have that truly scale with source. I hear a lot here about amps this and amps that but never about source. Match the 701s with a good source and they will truly shine.
Bass extension is to my mind how deep the bass goes and how much detail is present in that bass. It's not about the amount of bass. That's a totally different thing. My 701s to my ears produce a sound more akin to live than any of my other headphones by a huge margin. However, if I plug them into a mediocre source they are nothing less than mediocre themselves.
I've had bass through my 701s that's so deep I've thought the traffic noise on a recording was a lorry rumbling past. It's only after I heard the lorry was there on a second listen that I realised the lorry was on the original recording. I can feel the bass with the 701s or at least they are able to trick my mind into believing I can feel that bass.
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 11:12:44 GMT
Post by szoze on Apr 1, 2012 11:12:44 GMT
Bass extension is to my mind how deep the bass goes and how much detail is present in that bass. It's not about the amount of bass. That's a totally different thing. My 701s to my ears produce a sound more akin to live than any of my other headphones by a huge margin. However, if I plug them into a mediocre source they are nothing less than mediocre themselves. I agree. Directly compared to HD650, not only bass but everything through k701 has more character. You can almost "see" the expression on the face of the singer. It is hard to explain. HD 650 sounds just fine and easy-going. I don't either like to talk about the amount of certain frequencies, no matter if it is bass or treble. The texture an detail is much more important. And I think that k701 is a master of producing texture and detail. And of course the source is very important. We cannot discuss quality of a hi-fi gear if the source isn-t hi-fi. Personally I don't take opinions from people who use ipod as a source. They cannot be serious enough.
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Deleted
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 11:21:08 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2012 11:21:08 GMT
That's quite normal at 40+ Just tested (with DT1350) 25Hz to 15kHz (age50+) I could barely detect the 16KHz though,was at about the same level as the 20Hz The 31.5 was LOUD already. 20Hz is at -7dB with K701 where as the DT1350 is still 0dB referenced to 100Hz. That is what is meant with extension. Bass extension lies between 16Hz and 40Hz. My sub reaches 16Hz at 0dB (200W on 2x 40 cm actively compensated) One doesn't know what one misses until one actually hears it. -5 to -10dB at 20Hz doesn't seem much but in reality this is quite audible. (-10dB is a halving of perceived volume !) The W1000X has considerable more oomph in the lows as K701 eventhough technically the extension is the same, both -7dB @ 20Hz referenced to 1kHz. This is because the lows of the W1000X between 40Hz and 300z is above 0dB (+5dB at 100Hz) which makes the W1000X much more realistic sounding in the lows. The K701 is 'flatter' though and simply doesn't have any bass lift. The DT1350 doesn't have bass lift but does extend more. 25Hz CAN be heard with the ears !
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Deleted
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 12:14:59 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2012 12:14:59 GMT
With close coupling to the ears perhaps, but a low distortion 25 Hz sine wave through good speakers and amplifier is more felt than heard, and can even make you feel quite uncomfortable. Headphones can't give you anything remotely like that kick in the guts that speakers can at these frequencies when present in music and what is heard may be in part due to vibration or resonances in the headphones ? Alex
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XTRProf
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Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 12:29:58 GMT
Post by XTRProf on Apr 1, 2012 12:29:58 GMT
With close coupling to the ears perhaps, but a low distortion 25 Hz sine wave through good speakers and amplifier is more felt than heard, and can even make you feel quite uncomfortable. Headphones can't give you anything remotely like that kick in the guts that speakers can at these frequencies when present in music I totally concur. It's very hard to explain to some that are totally into headfi. Only when we are in it, heard and feel it, can that be fully realised. I'm out as I need to clean up the V2.
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AKG
Apr 2, 2012 12:30:39 GMT
Post by szoze on Apr 2, 2012 12:30:39 GMT
Oh, I can feel the low freqs when the lobes of my ears start to flutter
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AKG
Apr 5, 2012 11:50:09 GMT
Post by szoze on Apr 5, 2012 11:50:09 GMT
AKG 701 are much quieter than HD650 with my X-can V3. It is interesting since the technical spec says 105 dB for AKG and 103 dB for Senn. The impedance of the k701 is also much lower.
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funk1969
250+
Some things are so easily overlooked...
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AKG
Apr 5, 2012 12:32:48 GMT
Post by funk1969 on Apr 5, 2012 12:32:48 GMT
The K701 has the reputation to behave as an old school 600 ohms headphone. In short: you need a powerful headphone amplifier...
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AKG
Apr 5, 2012 13:28:37 GMT
Post by dalethorn on Apr 5, 2012 13:28:37 GMT
I don't agree at all with the majority consensus on loudspeaker -vs-headphone at low frequencies. For starters, extremely few audiophiles who have such capable speakers realize the extreme lows because they require room dimensions over 20 feet on at least one side, plus very strong walls and no large openings in the room that can't be closed by a heavy door. Been there many times over a period of years. Then to headphones - any of my better headphones produce the lowest frequencies, at least down to 20 hz, perfectly - both hear and feel.
Check out an Audio Engineering Society article by Richard Heyser circa mid to late 1970's, concerning his comparison of earthquake low frequency sounds compared to standing on a large woofer cone. He described the 1971 Sylmar quake as "I heard this low frequency tone, a pure tone, then that was followed by the quake..."
So it's true that the experience of headphones -vs- loudspeakers is different, for the obvious reasons, not necessarily for the reasons usually stated. The obvious reason is in the one case the speakers are strapped to your head.... But when I play CD's that have the very deep organ pedal notes, such as The Power Of The Organ on SACD by organist Rachel Laurin, I get a deep bass experience that's comparable to the best loudspeakers in a large room, only better. Better because I hear the lows down to perhaps 30 hz as tones, then feel the deeper notes with all of the power they have, but without the inevitable resonances you can't avoid at the bass frequencies in a room in a house.
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AKG
Apr 5, 2012 13:29:37 GMT
Post by dalethorn on Apr 5, 2012 13:29:37 GMT
slightly off topic, but still AKG related: does anyone know anything about this photograph: apart from the obvious. Who made the photograph, why and when? Is it official AKG poster, or... Senior moderator at headfi.
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AKG
Apr 5, 2012 13:39:30 GMT
Post by szoze on Apr 5, 2012 13:39:30 GMT
The K701 has the reputation to behave as an old school 600 ohms headphone. In short: you need a powerful headphone amplifier... But... isn't X-Can V3 powerful enough?
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AKG
Apr 5, 2012 13:44:53 GMT
Post by dragan on Apr 5, 2012 13:44:53 GMT
Senior moderator at headfi. really? Could you point me to him? For such a popular photograph, there isn't much info about it.
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Deleted
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AKG
Apr 5, 2012 14:58:37 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2012 14:58:37 GMT
AKG 701 are much quieter than HD650 with my X-can V3. It is interesting since the technical spec says 105 dB for AKG and 103 dB for Senn. The impedance of the k701 is also much lower. Effieciency, noise levels, HP impedance, amplifier output resistance and hearing tresholds artifacts are all involved. It isn't as simple as it looks. K701: 65 Ohms: efficiency = 1.57mW (0.32V) to reach 90dB = 88dB/mW HD650: 320 Ohms: effieciency = 0.13mW (0.205V) to reach 90dB = 98dB/mW HD650 is thus 10 times as sensitive POWER wise, which means it sounds 2 times as loud when the same POWER is applied. But an amp doesn't supply POWER it delivers a VOLTAGE. When we supply the same voltage (0 Ohm output amp) the calculations differ: with 1V the K701 delivers 100dB with 1V the HD650 delivers 104dB So the HD650 will sound a tad louder (4dB) on the same low Ohmic amp if the volume control isn't moved. When you mention the MF XCAN V3 in the same sentence things change again because of voltage division. On Xcan-V3 (33 Ohm out), open voltage = 1V: K701 = 96.4dB HD650 = 103.2dB The difference is now almost 7dB when the volume control is NOT touched compared to a 0 Ohm output resistance. With a 120 ohm output resistance the difference gets bigger yet again: K701 = 91dB HD650 = 101dB again 10dB difference which means the HD650 sounds twice as loud as a K701 when the volume isn't adjusted. Noise: This is a bit harder to say as with HP's the noise level in the ear is increased. Easy to show this is when you put a cup over your ears you can even hear your own blood flowing. So the background noise level rises. In the evening (sensitive ears, the mechanism for this is known: hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/protect.html#c1) with HP's the hearing treshold is around +5dB (for mids, lows and highs is much higher value) In order to hear absolute silence with a K701 on V3 you can have 27uV or less noise (113dB S/N ratio) In order to hear absolute silence the amp needs to have 12uV or less noise (120dB S/N ratio). This means on a 'noisy amp' that has say 20uV noise voltage you would be able to detect noise with a HD650 but not yet with a K701. Science (numbers) is boring... yet it can explain things.
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AKG
Apr 5, 2012 16:37:58 GMT
Post by szoze on Apr 5, 2012 16:37:58 GMT
Thanks a lot Frans! Numbers may be boring sometimes but in this case it is the only way to explain the things This difference in audible level is very important to take into account when directly comparing headphones to eachother because there is a risk that the ones that are louder can also be perceived as "better sounding". If the source is weak and if the amplifer is low in power the power hungry (or should I say voltage hungry) headphones will suffer.
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funk1969
250+
Some things are so easily overlooked...
Posts: 481
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AKG
May 7, 2012 8:38:20 GMT
Post by funk1969 on May 7, 2012 8:38:20 GMT
That's why I prefer an amplifier with plenty of voltage and adjustable gain. My K500 for instance needs a bit of gain. I recently fitted the K500 with K601 ear pads and I like the result...
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Deleted
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AKG
May 7, 2012 8:54:19 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 7, 2012 8:54:19 GMT
slightly off topic, but still AKG related: does anyone know anything about this photograph: First time listening to this
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AKG
May 7, 2012 15:42:33 GMT
Post by dalethorn on May 7, 2012 15:42:33 GMT
Senior moderator at headfi. really? Could you point me to him? For such a popular photograph, there isn't much info about it. Somehow I missed this. 'Currawong' at head-fi. I don't know if popular is the right term for this. I'm very careful about using children in depictions that aren't normal for children.
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AKG
May 7, 2012 18:22:55 GMT
Post by PinkFloyd on May 7, 2012 18:22:55 GMT
Perfectly normal for children to be sporting a pair of AKG headphones isn't it? Funny how you think that abnormal but this is generally accepted as "normal":
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AKG
May 7, 2012 20:22:35 GMT
Post by dalethorn on May 7, 2012 20:22:35 GMT
Your gamer looks a great deal older than currawong's.
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 8, 2012 17:40:48 GMT
I believe the "gamer" is only 4 months old, they come out of the womb quite well developed these days.... They are pretty much ready to "game" 14 days out of the womb... That's evolution.
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