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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 8:08:02 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 8:08:02 GMT
With the K701, if you compare cymbal sounds to HD650, they sound very splashy and strident. That's what highlighted the peak in the treble for me. Once you identify it, the same 'timbre' is applied on all recordings. If it's not heard, then it doesn't get noticed.
On the Hd650, cymbals sound more 'gong' like and less splashy. However, you do still hear overtones so the Senn isn't as rolled off as many think. It does have extension but not the quantity of the AKG.
Poor old Frans- he has heard them!! I have found his descriptions from graphs frighteningly accurate!!!! I wish I could do that. It would save a lot of money on headphones. I have so many now!!
For me, the less technically perfect K601 is a great compromise between K701 and HD650.
Has anyone tried any of the portable AKG's? I've never really bothered.
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 8:08:20 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 8:08:20 GMT
Have you actually heard this by comparing different headphones to eachother or do you solely rely on the graphs ppresented on GoldenEars? Yes I heard it and owned the K701 (a burned in second hand one) for several weeks as already mentioned. Even before the GE site existed so heard it BEFORE I found these graphs that merely verify what my ears told ME. I also compared K401, K601 a few times to K701/K702 on several occasions and with other HP's The K701 I owned at the same time as HD650 and DT990 (as well as some other HP's) I have amps with high and low resistance outputs. Whether one percieves something as 'accurate' and which type of headphones one prefers is a PERSONAL thing and is NOT the same for everyone. This is down to taste, physical size of the ear canal and how trained a listener is and trained in which aspect of hearing. EVERY headphone out there has coloration and distortion. How much of a specific part bothers you or not is again personal. The graph you point to is varying 10dB within a range of 100Hz to 10kHz and this graph is compensated according to what the testers believe should be done to 'transform' the raw measurements in how they 'percieve' the headphone. GE has a similar approach and have simply used their preferred version of the HRTF which differs. Your physical ear shape and hearing abilities seem to match the choice of HRTF your linked site has made, where my hearing closely matches that of GE, as I agree with their paragraph 6 findings completely. So like I stated a few times. The K701 (a lot of AKG's) are GOOD headphones they are however NOT the optimal choice for everyone. For you and others it is a good if not the best headphone out there. For me (and others) it isn't. If you are not bothered by or cannot hear the peak some report than you don't and it is as simple as that. Doesn't mean it isn't present or percieved by others that hear differently.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 8:14:01 GMT
That peak becomes more bothersome once you've identified it, Frans. If you don't hear it, it's easily perceived as 'extension'.
For me, it's like hearing the same note, superimposed on top of every cymbal!! Ie; cymbals sound kind of similar. The opposite to those headphones that have what is referred to as a 'one note' bass but right up high in the treble.
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 8:20:42 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 8:20:42 GMT
Indeed.. and it is why I sold it in the end and have sold a lot of other headphones for the same reasons for that matter. Some 'flawed' headphones remained as I can live with their flaws. Lots of other HP's were bought and sold over many years as one has to actually hear the headphones themselves on their own gear with their own preferred music to pass a personal judgement.
I have made bad judgement calls based on findings of others (reviews/owners opinions) or by mis-interpretted posted FR graphs.
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 8:30:11 GMT
Post by szoze on Mar 31, 2012 8:30:11 GMT
Indeed.. and it is why I sold it in the end and have sold a lot of other headphones for the same reasons for that matter. Some 'flawed' headphones remained as I can live with their flaws. Lots of other HP's were bought and sold over many years as one has to actually hear the headphones themselves on their own gear with their own preferred music to pass a personal judgement. I have made bad judgement calls based on findings of others (reviews/owners opinions) or by mis-interpretted posted FR graphs. OK What headphones do you listen most to nowdays?
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 8:31:27 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 8:31:27 GMT
I have as well. Nowadays, I have so many that I try not to get too familiar with any of them or else you become obsessive about their faults!!
The K701 is one that I keep returning to, but now, I instantly hear that peak so it's kind of redundant for me.
I still keep trying with it.
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 9:03:54 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 9:03:54 GMT
OK What headphones do you listen most to nowdays? My personal preference depends on a few decisions I make. This involves the mood I am in and if I am moving around or stationary. stationary use: Home made (SFI) ortho with dedicated (custom filtered) amp. Sennheiser HD650 (on low resistance amp), Beyerdynamic DT990-600 old (on low resistance amp), modded Superlux HD681 (on low resistance amp), Sennheiser HD580 (modded, on high resistance amp), Beyerdynamic DT1350 (not EQ'd, on high resistance amp) I sometimes use different types of amps. (tube hybrid, trafo or SS all equiped with at least 2 different output resistance choices) portable: padded, EQ'd DT1350 KSC35/KSC75 HD681 (modded) modded V-Jays enough choice for me and all that remained of the several tens of HP's owned and sold over the years. My personal preference might differ considerable from those of many others. Some may not even remotely like my preference at all. HP's is all about personal enjoyment (where as speakers can be listen to by more than one person at the same time). Fortunately for me I am not bothered by choice of equipment, jitter, certain parts, interconnects e.t.c. so I tend to listen to music for pleasure and relaxing and when needed analytical for trouble shooting or modding to get it to fit my personal taste.
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 9:38:35 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 9:38:35 GMT
For me; Work DT150 AT M50 Stationary K701 - only for analytical/testing gear. K601 - Clean sound for acoustic and lighter music. HD650 - Pure indulgence. For music. I'd say the most like speakers!! Beyer DT990 - Fun and hard hitting. HD600 - For music with a lighter touch than 650. HD250 - when tv is on. Musical headphone. AT a900 - Lightweight music for when tv is on. Beyer DT770 - for a mad hour of bass. Partial Stationary AT ad700 - light sounding. Senn hd25 - good all rounder. Grado sr125i - punchy. Bit of fun. Superlux 681 with filter. - Fun headphone. Mobile Senn HD25 - good all rounder Senn PX100 - ok. Sounds bigger than it is. Koss Portapro - Adds a bit more sparkle than px100 Klipsch x8 & x12 (I think they're called) Very good, clean listen Senn ie8 (Custom fit) (For work as well - fat, lush sound that makes even me sound good!!! + anything else left around the house!!! (at a500, sr80i, Sony MDR 7506 and 'me Fanny Wangs for street cred ..... and others I forget) Not to mention amps all over the place...... Not one is what I'd call perfect!! Closest for me is Senn 650 and AKG K601 with different emphasis at each end of Frequency spectrum. Headphones I'd like to hear: AT W1000x, AT w5000x, AKG K550. BTW - when comparing headphones, it's sometimes better not to go from one to the other, since the aspects that you don't like on one are immediately addressed by the other so you 'think' it's better. The reality may not be so. The 'lack' of extension isn't as poor as some make out. It's just not so in yer face. The lack of bass on the K701 isn't so either - it's just less. However, going back and forth between the two will make both seem poor in some respect. I try to listen for long periods and get the 'focus' volume set right for each headphone. You get surprises when you do as 'Sportin' Life' says in 'Porgy and Bess' - It Ain't Necessarily So!! K701 does have bass and HD650 does extend more than many think.
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funk1969
250+
Some things are so easily overlooked...
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 9:56:15 GMT
Post by funk1969 on Mar 31, 2012 9:56:15 GMT
With the K701, if you compare cymbal sounds to HD650, they sound very splashy and strident. That's what highlighted the peak in the treble for me. Once you identify it, the same 'timbre' is applied on all recordings. If it's not heard, then it doesn't get noticed. On the Hd650, cymbals sound more 'ginger' like and less splashy. However, you do still hear overtones so the Senn isn't as rolled off as many think. It does have extension but not the quantity of the AKG. Poor old Frans- he has heard them!! I have found his descriptions from graphs frighteningly accurate!!!! I wish I could do that. It would save a lot of money on headphones. I have so many now!! For me, the less technically perfect K601 is a great compromise between K701 and HD650. Has anyone tried any of the portable AKG's? I've never really bothered. I have the K181, quite good in sound and it isolates enough for me so that I don't have to crank up the volume when I'm outside. P.S. I also had the K81/518, quite the bargain for a fun sounding little headphone with great isolation.
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 10:01:59 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 10:01:59 GMT
I just read my post after seeing your quote. You all must think me mad - more ginger like? I meant to say 'gong' like so I've changed it!!! Yes the K181's look interesting. There are so many I'd like to try. The K404 is a surprise for AKG - quite dark. Outside, I really like the Senn ie8 with custom fit earpieces. They go right into the ear canal and hit really hard. Not neutral, but lush and you completely forget that it's a mini earpiece you're listening to. Anything sounding like the K701 mobile could get painful if you turned up to drown out noise!! That's what I meant by using the FR for the volume you want to listen at. The DT150 would be perfect mobile if it were smaller!!!! It's funny how a thread about AKG's often leads on to other headphones as well isn't it?
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 10:40:21 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 10:40:21 GMT
Horses for courses! Funny you should say that as for my ears I find cymbals really well defined by the 701s, different size crashes, splashes, rides or chinas used as crashes or even vice versa.
On a very good recording you can even tell distinctive brand differences (Zildjin, Paiste, Sabian etc.).
I love the HF on the 701 but sometimes miss the bass of 600, hence me being fickle.
I've tried to get the 701 and the 600 to mate but......
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 10:41:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 10:41:16 GMT
GE posted this a few days ago: en.goldenears.net/12227look at the section 6 (subjective sound evaluation) I really love those 'sliders' it says a lot about overall sound IMO quite easy to compare the sound when you compare those to other HP's you own and know and they might have tested as well. The FR plot shows it's a dark phone too. Lows and midlows are pretty dominant. Impedance plot says damping at 1.5kHz and 4kHz leaves to be desired. Never heard it nor interested in this one. The K181 I never heard but will audition when I find one playing somewhere.
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 10:56:33 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 10:56:33 GMT
I have the baby - K601!!!! I think the peak gets in the way for my ear canals, Chris. It kind of super-imposes a 'ring' on top. Using the K701 for assessing gear must mean that they are laser like for music though and so they are revealing which is exactly how I find them. I use them to assess amps in particular, where differences are tiny really. Not as obvious on Senn HD650 but are there once you've identified them on the K701!!! I guess the Senns smooth over the aural creases!! That site is really good, Frans. The subjective assessment is basically what I felt as well. Looking through them, they do kind of play down the differences. If you compare HD650 with K701, it doesn't seem much a of a gap in sound between them, whereas in real life, I find the differences quite large as far as timbre goes.
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 11:10:04 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 11:10:04 GMT
Hi Ian When you use the 701s for assessing gear, are they being fed via a source impedance of 120 ohms ? Are you using an external adapter to increase the output impedance to 120 ohms for those amplifiers with a much lower output impedance, and are still capable of providing enough drive ? Something that struck me here, was that if you dared criticise the K701s more than 18 months ago,you would receive a lot of irate replies. Kind Regards Alex
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 11:38:20 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 11:38:20 GMT
Hi Alex, I've tried it from all kinds of things!!! My panda is at 120 ohms out and is one of the best amps that I have for it. Something that struck me here, was that if you dared criticise the K701s more than 18 months ago,you would receive a lot of irate replies.Too right, Alex. However, this isn't the headphone site that we're not allowed to disagree on!! (Voldemort) That's why I like it here. People don't take things as a personal insult and also don't treat you as though you're 'stupid' for saying the supposedly 'wrong' thing. (Well, mostly ) It's funny how the K701 gets people riled up. I don't care who makes the headphone personally. As you know, I battled with this headphone for a long time. I could never completely relax with it and could never really work out what it was. Eventually, I thought it was something in the top that sounded 'similar' on all recordings that I was listening to and it was Frans who mentioned some peak in the treble. The trouble is, once I knew there was one there and had identified it by hearing it, I kind of couldn't take my focus off of it every time I listened. (It's a bit like having a chip in your car windscreen - you can't sop looking at it!!!!) I put the headphone away, thinking I could forget it over time and come back. Got the K601 which seemed to not have the same problem but showed the same kind of clarity + the fact that it seems to match more amps without too much fuss. Every time I go back to the K701, I start by thinking, 'this isn't as bad as I first thought' and then I hear that peak again. This thread got the K701 back on my head - but there it was again. It's an annoying thing because I 'want' to like it but can't get past that peak. Anyway, I don't mind if others get so offended because I don't like a headphone!! I never understood the 'over-protectiveness' that developed around the K701. It's no worse or better than an HD650 imo. Just another flavour. I'm after your headphone now!! or the 5000x. I also tried the device that Frans made with the K701 where you can alter the output impedance. It's general character remains whatever the device was set at. Amps need to go the C.H.A.M.P. route and offer some variable settings for this!!
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Post by pcourtney1 on Mar 31, 2012 14:22:48 GMT
I am still using my old K-340 (400 ohms) headphones with X-Can v2 the 340 has really good instrument separation and I have since struggled to find another set of cans that I prefer under £500 www.headfonia.com/akg-k340-bass-heavy-version/I bought another 340 over 10 years ago that was still in its original box and only used for the odd demo in a shop near Munich, it sounded really good with the amp they used (can't remember the name of the amp), I should dust it off and have a listen.
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 14:28:05 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 14:28:05 GMT
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 20:20:52 GMT
Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 31, 2012 20:20:52 GMT
What are you listening to.... a violin quartet? The K-701 have very pedestrian bass extension, try listening to some organ with them, they just lose the plot on the very low frequencies. When you say "extension" what exactly do you mean Ian and how do the K-701 have "more" extension than any other headphones in your collection? I know you're a fan of them (and so am I for what they do) but to claim they have great bass extension is just pure twaddle. Hold on, sorry..... it's the wet string source we are all using... ah, I see... stupid me, I thought it was the headphones that were lacking in the bass department. I experimented with many amps (all of which I have to hand) and quite a few sources (also to hand).... I now realise they are all just "wet string".... Frans, Ian (Rabbit) and all you other guys.... it has nothing to do with the K-701... it's a wet string thing. Thanks for pointing that out Ian, I'll ditch all of my wet string gear and go for a decent source and amp... what do you recommend? By the way, are you still tenting over your skytronics headphones? I "literally" threw mine in the dustbin, they were absolute SHITE.... I regret doing that now you have made me aware of the wet string thing.
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 20:22:43 GMT
Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 31, 2012 20:22:43 GMT
AKG have made some of the very best headphones over the years, without a shadow of a doubt. Indeed they have. Just like Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, Audio Technica, Denon (Foster), Audez'e, HiFiMAN, Sony, Stax, Shure and Grado did... (to name but a few) You forgot "Skytronics"
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 21:05:14 GMT
Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 31, 2012 21:05:14 GMT
a matter of taste and not absolute truth. One prefers this, someone else prefers that... The K701 is a good headphone. Just not THE best for every one. some independant measurements where the lack of bass extension and peak in the highs aren't visbile ;D en.goldenears.net/4138It's not untill you heard HP's with real bass extension and the absence of the treble peak untill you know what you are missing out for. Problem again is.. not everyone likes that sound or is willing/able to spend the money on it. en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=GR_Headphones&document_srl=11561I find it slightly ironic that the site you link with your independent measurements is called "Golden Ears" Surely "Golden Oscillioscopes" or "Golden Graphs" would be a better name for them? Personally I tend to use my ears rather than graphs. It may have escaped your notice but graphs are something you look at. Eyes are entirely the wrong organ to apprectiate music with unless you can read music. TOTALLY agree with you on that one Ian BUT, in this instance, I agree with the graphs AND my ears when it comes to the K-701.... Let's not a mountain out of a mole hill make this... we are talking about preferences here and those preferences can balance on the "nth" degree of deviance from the norm.... to MY ears the K-701 are bass shy..... to other ears they are neutral, to others they are "extended".... I normally don't give a crap what a graph says but, in this instance, the graph actually reflects the truth (as far as my ears are concerned)... the K-701 "IS" bass shy. The K-701 is ALSO (from a wet string point of view) possibly the best dynamic headphone there is when it comes down to headstage and LS35A type detail in the mids. You will never get the perfect "one size fits all" headphone, (wet string or dry string), there are too many variables involved.... there is no such thing as a general purpose (suits all ears) stradivarius type sound... each headphone is unique, each pair of ears is unique... as unique as fingerprints... one man's "neutral" is another man's positive.... Wet string aside, there is an argument for a different pair of headphones for different occasions.... my "graphless" research / listening time / experience tells me that is so.
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Deleted
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 22:37:20 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 22:37:20 GMT
Hi Ian Keep in mind that Mike's cup dampening mod to the W1000 really does make a nice little improvement ,as it gets rid of those smearing resonances. The W1000 may also be a little bass shy for some, but it would depend on your music preferences, in which case most members have a choice of headphones to use. Drum decay sounded more natural to me than with the K701 Kind Regards Alex
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XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
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AKG
Mar 31, 2012 23:23:19 GMT
Post by XTRProf on Mar 31, 2012 23:23:19 GMT
Drum decay sounded more natural to me than with the K701 That's because it's a woodie and all woodie does that pretty well. Frans may not agree based on FR graphs though.
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Deleted
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 6:44:03 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2012 6:44:03 GMT
An FR graph would show the effects of wood, Chong. He may not approve of the resonances that would can incite but it is actually detectable.
Alex has the inside of his cups dampened though. I just thought, Alex, you must have the one that I nearly bought from Mike.
I really like the look of them as well. One day ........
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Deleted
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 7:02:20 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2012 7:02:20 GMT
An FR graph would show the effects of wood, Chong. He may not approve of the resonances that would can incite but it is actually detectable. Alex has the inside of his cups dampened though. I just thought, Alex, you must have the one that I nearly bought from Mike. I really like the look of them as well. One day ........ Hi Ian A friend of mine bought me a new pair from Price Japan in return for my Stax system , which I felt was a little too rolled off below 150HZ The W1000 when properly driven sound a lot better at the low end than the Stax ever did, despite what those bloody graphs may claim. I trust those graphs almost as far as I can piss these days! ;D Mike sent me some bitumen tape for the sound deadening. Kind Regards Alex
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Deleted
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AKG
Apr 1, 2012 7:10:31 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2012 7:10:31 GMT
en.goldenears.net/5351 ATH W1000X notice par 6 and how it nicely follows the green line. (I just included the graph because it's april fools day. ;D )
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