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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 3, 2014 19:49:21 GMT
I have made a discovery and am keeping it under my hat for the time being until I have fully evaluated what I believe to be the absolute ultimate E88CC, that is not an E88CC, on the planet! It's a valve / tube that has the same properties as an E88CC BUT provides: Superior transconductance lower plate resistance Higher voltage gain (42 versus 33) More linear Reduced voltage requirements It has totally blown my ears away the past few days (big style) and I am not going to say any more until I have fully evaluated it in three or four more applications. I reckon I should have some news this time next week and promise you all that this is one "helluva" find  Mike. Read more: rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/9797/best-e88cc-6922-ecc88-planet?page=1&scrollTo=134223#ixzz2xr30xnqW |
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Post by smokeycigar on Apr 4, 2014 3:21:09 GMT
arrhhhh...you're costing me major dineros with all these finds  How much are these better than the 6H23N-EB? |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 4, 2014 20:09:13 GMT
arrhhhh...you're costing me major dineros with all these finds How much are these better than the 6H23N-EB? Hi Noam, The thing is this.... these are not 6H23N-EB, they are not 6922, they are not E88CC...... these are a pretty much "unseen" variant of all of them and, as such, I'd like to keep this "find" under my belt / under wraps until I have fully evaluated them. They are not your "plug in" types but I am working on a way of converting them....... Let's just say this..... this will "possibly" turn out to be the best find I have yet made and may well start a revolution in the E88CC world All will become evident shortly. All the best, Mike. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 20:38:12 GMT
Perhaps they are solid state devices, inside a glass bottle , with a heater to keep them nice and warm in the chilly U.K. , with a higher HFE ? |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 5, 2014 19:50:33 GMT
Hi Alex, They are Sylvania 7963 subminiature strap frame grid types. The datasheet is here: frank.pocnet.net/other/Sylvania/Sylvania-SSFGT.pdf scroll down to the 7963 datasheet. You will see how much better these are by comparing them to the 6DJ8: www.mh-audio.nl/Downloads/TubeDataSheets/6DJ8.pdfThe only bitch is the pin-outs are different from your standard E88CC / 6DJ8 / 6922 etc. so they are not a direct "plug in" replacement. You can insulate the leads (heatshrink) and wire them in to a standard 6DJ8 slot (no probs at all) but most people would like a plug and play variant of the 7963. The quick and easy approach would be to buy a 9 pin noval valve /tube socket saver and solder the 7963 to the corresponding sockets on the socket saver...... the 7963 have very long flexible leads so this is a relatively easy thing to do. Socket savers:  You would then have a "module" that is a direct plug and play replacement into a standard 9 pin noval socket. "IS" (pin 9) on the 6DJ8 / 6922 is a redundant pin (not required) in our type of applications..... it's a simple case of hooking the 7963 up into the correct positions in a 6DJ8 application.... Here are the two, side by side.......  I have found a Sylvania publication from 1962 which gives the history of the 7963 / 6DJ8 and I quote: "The advantages of the strap frame grid are quite well known and are attested to by the steady increase in the number of new electron tubes employing this innovation. The area of growth in the past, however, had been restricted to miniature and larger designs. About two years ago, Sylvania launched a program to develop a subminiature frame grid tube design for the Military and Industrial markets. The results of this program to date are ten new tube types. Each new type, when compared with its nearest conventional predecessor, shows a marked improvement in gain and operating efficiency of both the plate and heater. In addition, the new design offers the mechanical ruggedness, stability and reliability, characteristic of subminiature construction. The majority of subminiature tubes are downsized versions of existing miniature 7 and 9 pin types which, in turn, were smaller versions of existing octal types -- for example, the 6SN7/5691 beget the 5751, from which the 6112 was derived. The 7963, while claiming no octal forerunners (as there were no frame grid octal twin triodes), can trace its ancestry to the 6DJ8 family. In fact, with regard to audio applications, the 7963 offers performance in low level audio applications that is superior to all 6DJ8 variants, and to all other subminiature twin triodes as well." Absolutely SUPERB for a new build design that is thinking of employing these but quite time consuming (as far as time is money goes) to convert them into a 9 pin noval package. I'll upload photos of my sub-min to noval9 conversion soon Mike. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 5, 2014 20:05:49 GMT
Same long legs as the 6112 / 6948 types (photo is one of my 6948) so the "valve saver" base seems to be the ideal way to mount these / sell them on as plug and play.......  Holy crap! these valves are good for 80,000 feet duty! They are also impervious to radiation. They are good for 3,000 MPH impact into a mountain erm...... why was the carton decked out with "FRAGILE" tape? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 20:58:36 GMT
Try dropping one on to a tiled floor !  |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 5, 2014 21:03:54 GMT
Try dropping one on to a tiled floor ! Have you performed that "drop" test? I am about to perform the ULTIMATE "insert into anus" test....... I will report back if re-entry was successful |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 21:07:14 GMT
Hi Alex, They are Sylvania 7963 subminiature strap frame grid types. The datasheet is here: frank.pocnet.net/other/Sylvania/Sylvania-SSFGT.pdf scroll down to the 7963 datasheet. You will see how much better these are by comparing them to the 6DJ8: www.mh-audio.nl/Downloads/TubeDataSheets/6DJ8.pdfThe only bitch is the pin-outs are different from your standard E88CC / 6DJ8 / 6922 etc. so they are not a direct "plug in" replacement. You can insulate the leads (heatshrink) and wire them in to a standard 6DJ8 slot (no probs at all) but most people would like a plug and play variant of the 7963. The quick and easy approach would be to buy a 9 pin noval valve /tube socket saver and solder the 7963 to the corresponding sockets on the socket saver...... the 7963 have very long flexible leads so this is a relatively easy thing to do. Socket savers: You would then have a "module" that is a direct plug and play replacement into a standard 9 pin noval socket. "IS" (pin 9) on the 6DJ8 / 6922 is a redundant pin (not required) in our type of applications..... it's a simple case of hooking the 7963 up into the correct positions in a 6DJ8 application.... Here are the two, side by side....... I have found a Sylvania publication from 1962 which gives the history of the 7963 / 6DJ8 and I quote: "The advantages of the strap frame grid are quite well known and are attested to by the steady increase in the number of new electron tubes employing this innovation. The area of growth in the past, however, had been restricted to miniature and larger designs. About two years ago, Sylvania launched a program to develop a subminiature frame grid tube design for the Military and Industrial markets. The results of this program to date are ten new tube types. Each new type, when compared with its nearest conventional predecessor, shows a marked improvement in gain and operating efficiency of both the plate and heater. In addition, the new design offers the mechanical ruggedness, stability and reliability, characteristic of subminiature construction. The majority of subminiature tubes are downsized versions of existing miniature 7 and 9 pin types which, in turn, were smaller versions of existing octal types -- for example, the 6SN7/5691 beget the 5751, from which the 6112 was derived. The 7963, while claiming no octal forerunners (as there were no frame grid octal twin triodes), can trace its ancestry to the 6DJ8 family. In fact, with regard to audio applications, the 7963 offers performance in low level audio applications that is superior to all 6DJ8 variants, and to all other subminiature twin triodes as well." Absolutely SUPERB for a new build design that is thinking of employing these but quite time consuming (as far as time is money goes) to convert them into a 9 pin noval package. I'll upload photos of my sub-min to noval9 conversion soon Mike. We used many 1,000s of plugs like that without the valve sockets, for mounting a pair of 75V 5W Zeners to replace voltage regulator tubes in LME ARE11 Crossbar Telephone Exchanges. They had screw on caps instead of the sockets. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 5, 2014 21:11:41 GMT
Pin to pin drop ins?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 21:56:21 GMT
The Zener Diode replacements were factory assembled and direct plug ins, but is so often the case with things designed by Engineers, they sometimes ran too hot due to the thick leads of the 5W Zeners needing to be cut short. The small entry hole in the screw on top of the plugs didn't provide enough ventilation. My own solution at Chatswood T.E, which was as a result of me working with a District Engineer in the original investigations before they were made available, was to hard wire the Zener Diodes directly across the valve bases with longer leads to aid heat dissipation. This method remained in use there with the previously modified most problematical relay sets.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 6, 2014 20:33:28 GMT
Try dropping one on to a tiled floor ! I actually threw one at a wall today and it just bounced off, hit the concrete floor and is still in one piece, Try that trick with a 6922 and it would be shattered glass city! I'll never forget dropping one of my customer's prized "mullard" gold pins on the floor.... it landed nipple side down and, yep, the nipple snapped off  It was no longer a "vacuum" tube (as we know it, Jim) it went all white inside and became a deceased Mullard Fortunately, I had quite a few brand new gold pin Mullards in stock so fitted a brand new pair for him. The little sub-miniature valves are a lot more robust and I reckon they are good for a 30,000 freefall jump onto turfed land..... they would, easily, be smashed with a hammer but would probably survive a 30,000 feet to ground "turfed" zero drop. Not too sure they would survive the impact of crashing into a structure at Mach 4 but they weren't designed to.... they were designed to be radiation proof, good for 80,000 feet duty, good for a few "G's" etc. etc..... they weren't supposed to be "serviceable" once the guided missile had hit it's target. I'm not quite sure they will be able to withstand the rigours of an audiophiles operating environment but they are damned good in guided missiles |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 6, 2014 20:47:26 GMT
Great fun at the post office..... They now have a stock question: "In the interest of health and safety can you tell me what's inside your package?" Yes..... Guided missile parts. "yes, we've heard all those jokes before" OK.... it's a bottle of aftershave "Aftershave???!!! You can't send that!!!! It's a flamable liquid!!" No, seriously, I AM sending guided missile parts... "Oh, ok, that's fine..... you do realise that if the X-RAY machine senses "aftershave" that your package will be destroyed?" I am prepared to take that risk, can you please (if it's not too much bother to you) accept my PAYMENT (which is keeping you idiots in a JOB!)...... Don't get me started on this "in the interest of health safety can you tell me what's in your package?" shite! My "stock" answer is "nothing dangerous" but I have been having fun with the "guided missile parts" of late |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 6, 2014 20:53:45 GMT
Most people I have seen in the post office(99% of them) actually tell them what's inside the package..... "It's a pair of pyjamas" etc. etc. etc...... Fekk off! none of your fekkin' business! "nothing dangerous" is the answer |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 21:09:32 GMT
But can they survive rough handling by the Post Office in the USA etc. ? I think they must often transport stuff in slow lumbering propeller driven cargo aircraft that vibrate everything loose, then the package gets chucked into the back of a truck from 3 metres or so away, or perhaps used for football practice.
That's what appeared to happen to a HA that I sent Miguel several years ago, despite being well packaged. Do you also need to provide ID such as driver's licence for packages sent overseas ? |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 6, 2014 21:30:17 GMT
Yes, those ex-farmer "crop sprayers" they use vibrate like fekk  |
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jc
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Post by jc on Apr 6, 2014 21:39:34 GMT
This is the scanner the post offices use to check the contents match that claimed...  |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 9, 2014 20:35:30 GMT
After a LOT of listening in different amps I can confirm my initial "gut" findings....... these are the best sounding E88CC / 6922 / 6DJ8 / ECC88 on planet Earth, bar none. They are a bitch, for current 9 pin E88CC / 6DJ8 owners looking for a "plug and play" version, not being a pin for pin compatible drop in for the 6DJ8, but very well suited to any future / "new" design that can build from the ground up with these in mind. You can make your own 7963 TO 6922 pinout conversion with the information already provided here with some funky wiring and, my god, it's worth the effort!!! They don't "look" pretty but, Jesus H Christ........ they are mind blowing! I'm not into religion but have never said "JEEEESUS Christ!!" so many times in one day! Here are a couple of photos of the funky angle 7963 to E88CC / 6922 / 6DJ8 / ECC88 / 6N23P (etc.) tweak.....    Any new build will overlook these at their peril. Mike Grierson. April 2014. |
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jc
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Post by jc on Apr 9, 2014 22:37:06 GMT
That test bed looks like a sunrise/horizon. Someone should be taking note!!!
Have you tried them in anything else?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 22:57:35 GMT
I'm still alive folks ;-) No kidding ! Incidentally, the noval plugs as used by Telstra would have been ideal for this application, as the leads could have been soldered directly to the base of the plug. However, I can't locate anything like that presently. I wonder if the adaptors you are using can be pulled apart?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 9, 2014 23:03:08 GMT
That test bed looks like a sunrise/horizon. Someone should be taking note!!! Have you tried them in anything else? Tried them in more than one amp Chris..... they are the dog's nads mate. Trust me. Mike. |
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FritzS
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Post by FritzS on Apr 10, 2014 5:07:55 GMT
As usual, I will remain humble... The "Pink" does it again! ............ Seriouisly guys, you need to check out the 7963 Mike. From where you get the 7963? Gives a datasheet from it? How much it costs? PS: Its cold at your home, you have 'red' fingers that imagine that |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 5:51:48 GMT
From where you get the 7963? Gives a datasheet from it? How much it costs? PS: Its cold at your home, you have 'red' fingers that imagine that frank.pocnet.net/other/Sylvania/Sylvania-SSFGT.pdf
An ebay seller says this : "These are superior replacements for 6DJ8-family tubes in home brew projects due to their higher transconductance, lower noise, superior linearity, higher gain, and lower required plate voltage."
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Post by audiorado on Apr 10, 2014 7:55:10 GMT
Hi Mike......
...this some interesting tube.What you mean would it work in my X10D buffer to??But I have one question!How to know wich leg is anode,wich grid and wich cathode if I want to covert this in 9 pin socket?
I have newer before play around with this subminiatures tubes.
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jc
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Post by jc on Apr 10, 2014 10:55:12 GMT
Mike, Moving on from Alex's thought of taking the adapters apart, how about these?  The source I found them on was out of stock eighth item down, but if you find them elsewhere it make the change far more compact. |
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It was no longer a "vacuum" tube (as we know it, Jim) it went all white inside and became a deceased Mullard 
