jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Mar 7, 2012 10:02:46 GMT
Frans, As Alex has said, why not leave this until after the JPlay & MC results are published? Why the constant banging on about it? Asked & answered, move on!
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Post by JohnnyBlue on Mar 7, 2012 10:37:00 GMT
And here's a short interlude while posters get their breath back: I am more than happy to record for those interested (take a step forward Shaun) that normal service was resumed last night. One Happy Bunny. And now, back to the main event. Let battle (re-)commence... Hi Johhny well not quite the spanking but better my take is it's time to have a clear out and get some younger faces in. shame about AVB i though he looked good for the longer term. ah local lads supporting their local team what's the world coming to. take care I agree totally with everything you've written. Wonder why some others here can't even begin to approach that kind of sentiment!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 11:18:45 GMT
Frans, As Alex has said, why not leave this until after the JPlay & MC results are published? Why the constant banging on about it? Asked & answered, move on! Why wait.. and NOT investigate the only other factor that appears to play a VERY important role in this matter. the aspect that is beyond questioning for subjectivists and the most important factor to non-subjectivists which is an issue on it's OWN. I cannot see a single reason NOT to do 2 separate investigations about the same subject viewed from different angles requires a 'waiting for' for confirmation. It's not poluting anything, only enlightening. Perhaps YOU can contact me AFTER the J-Play test and MC's results are in and in a COMBINED effort tackle the burning question that can be asked but is to be avoided at any cost.
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Mar 7, 2012 11:35:11 GMT
If you can give valid reasons why the JPlay test is not of sufficient quality, then yes. otherwise, what's the point?. So if you answer this question then maybe things could move on instead of banging on ad infinitum (the whole thread now feels like it's the eigth circle of hell) about another test.
Please don't use your reply to score points as you have been attemtping to do with each plea for this test - say plainly & clearly what's wrong with the existing test!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 13:01:23 GMT
I can only really tell when the concept, participants, results and conclusions are public.
As I have said LOTS of times before (doesn't register ?) the proposed test is to further go into this investigation (let's call it that) and to ONLY select the ones that guessed or heard correctly. Those that can 'foul up' the test (non-hearing participants for whatever reason, be it technical or otherwise) will then NOT pollute the test results.
However, WHAT's the harm in running another test at the same time. Taken by those that already KNOW and have proven MANY times in the past they can ?
What's wrong with that... other than wondering what it would do with the testers credibility.
I am willing to make a deal in the sense that IF the results of my 'ability test' turn out to be negative for the participants NONE of it (names and/or results) will be made public and remain a dark secret of the testers and test takers. However IF you can convince me statistically I will admit my mistake openly (the mistake being some can hear things that seem technically inexplicable) and AID in winding out why.
So you answer this question..
What have YOU or other participants in this test to loose ?
Wouldn't you like to know if your claims can indeed be 'validated' by the same people that question your hearing/findings/conclusions ?
As far as I can see I am the only one that can loose something. My diginity and lots of time.
The gain will be obvious and is there for both parties....
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Mar 7, 2012 13:18:47 GMT
I can only really tell when the concept, participants, results and conclusions are public. So, let me get this straight, you don't have an objection to the way the Jplay test is set-up but you will reserve judgement until the results are in? So fine we will wait!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 13:36:50 GMT
I have deleted my earlier reply as it is invalid now, but my question asked remains open.
I can't have objections to the way the test is setup as I don't know it, and will only know when everything is disclosed. I am free to have my own opinion of the test.
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Post by JohnnyBlue on Mar 7, 2012 14:18:47 GMT
Seconds out...
Round 107...
'Ding'!
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xerxes
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Post by xerxes on Mar 7, 2012 15:59:47 GMT
I for one would like a definitive answer, I'm intrigued and frustrated by the fact that I can't hear a difference, dispite having ears and equipment capable of hearing other fairly subtle differences brought about by other changes to the audio chain, different cables etc. I like Frans' idea of only those that can hear a difference participating, if audible differences are really there, they should comfortably get a close to 100% result. It would be pretty conclusive if they did, and of course if they didn't. Personally, I'm slightly suspicious of Martin Colloms, he works in the industry and makes a living from splitting hairs. He also alsways seems to find in favour of the more complex or expensive solutions, silver cables sound better than copper etc. Whereas in some other interesting tests I've come across some intrigueing results have been found: The difference between standard 16/44.1 and higher resolution recordings inaudible in double blind tests: www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70893.0I also came accross another interesting article, which I can't find now, where a fairly innexpensive ~£1,000.00 system was compared to a much more expensive one. When visible, everyone preferred the more expensive and better looking system, when hidden the result was closer to 50:50 with more people likeing the cheaper, more ordinary looking system. I came accross another article with a similar result for speakers; concluding that, when visible, people are very influenced by the appearance of equipment. Those large speakers with expensive real wood vineers and flash looking drivers invariably score better than the drab looking monitors. Big amps with fancy milled alluminium facias score better than the more generic looking mid-fi stuff. I suspect similar things happen with cables, those thick interconnect with fancy connectors score better than weedy looking ones with plain connectors etc. Perhaps as DIYers, we may be less influenced by the external appearance of stuff, but then who's to say we don't think something sounds better because it contains expensive "abc" capactors or "xyz" resistors when blind we might not hear the difference. Are there any visually impared audiophiles that you know of? How much do they spend on their equipment? Do they spend a lot, or much less, as sight unseen, they can no longer "hear" the improvement that more expensive equipment provides? Apologies for the wildly off-topic musings.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 17:31:46 GMT
Hi Johhny well not quite the spanking but better my take is it's time to have a clear out and get some younger faces in. shame about AVB i though he looked good for the longer term. ah local lads supporting their local team what's the world coming to. take care I agree totally with everything you've written. Wonder why some others here can't even begin to approach that kind of sentiment! Anyone who beats BCFC is OK with me. As I used to live near to London that makes it even better. For some reason I supported Wolves from a small kid, probably the wolf logo wot dunnit like. Which leads to why I like to see BCFC beaten. My last job in the UK had its HQ in Brum (Bordesley Green), there I was surrounded by BCFC and Aston Villa fans, with only one other Wolves fan in the whole place. Add to that Wolves were, errr, underperforming and you can guess the rest. So well done the Blues! PS I did also support my local club, Woking. "I'm the changingman - built on shifting sands I'm the changingman - waiting for the bang-" .....Oh darling....
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Mar 7, 2012 17:51:06 GMT
Seconds out... Round 107... 'Ding'! I could have been a contender
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 18:11:19 GMT
and a Paul Weller fan also take care and interesting point ''Perhaps as DIYers, we may be less influenced by the external appearance of stuff, but then who's to say we don't think something sounds better because it contains expensive "abc" capactors or "xyz" resistors when blind we might not hear the difference. Are there any visually impared audiophiles that you know of? How much do they spend on their equipment? Do they spend a lot, or much less, as sight unseen, they can no longer "hear" the improvement that more expensive equipment provides?'' not quite the same but my wife can usually tell when I've been fiddling with cables or caps even when she's been out all day. yup she comes back and says ''what have you done to the system''? it sounds 1) different 2) great 3) crap or any variation on the three. no point in sneaking the cables and caps past her. take care
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Post by dalethorn on Mar 7, 2012 18:27:16 GMT
Someone I know was involved in a SQ argument once, and what he requested of the other party was an example - a music track, a particular tone or series of tones or specific sound(s) in that track that could be compared between device 'A' and device 'B'. Over a period of time I remember a few people contributed suggestions which favored the "no significant difference" argument. In the meantime I've been accumulating test samples in anticipation of another such test. So in making comparisons, if the difference can be pinned down to a specific tone or series of tones from a particular instrument, that could work. If it's some other kind of difference that can be described only vaguely, like "Item 'A' sounds airier than item 'B'"', then that could involve tracking down subliminal effects. I believe in subliminal effects, but I also question the importance of those compared to things like transducer distortions, phase distortions, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 18:40:16 GMT
Shaun, You are welcome to give it a go. ;D Ah Well... I will dream on.... I have absolutely no idea what club you guys are talking about
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Mar 7, 2012 20:24:26 GMT
"when visible, people are very influenced by the appearance of equipment" - Post #108
I find that with my wife. She seems to like me much more when her eyes are closed and shes not influenced by how I look.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 20:50:37 GMT
Owen So you should be suspicious. He must have found a way to manipulate DBT A/B/A 3 minute tests ! ;D If you believe that scenario, then I am wasting my time even bothering to reply.
What isn't likely to be published though, is that he also heard clear differences between a couple of 24/96 tracks,(Claire Martin-Too Darn Hot) but didn't go further with additional listening sessions there, deciding to go with the better known Dire Straits tracks. I am more suspicious of the motives of those who demand a new test using their criteria,and under their control, just before the results of an investigation are due to be published. Alex
How did you and Frans manage tol get on the listening panel ? ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 21:10:56 GMT
One of our Sydney members has a visually impaired friend with $50K B and W speakers and a big Krell amplifier.
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xerxes
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Post by xerxes on Mar 7, 2012 21:28:07 GMT
Clearly the salesman was sighted. Seriously though, even not being able to see wouldn't prevent preconceptions. You would have to chose on sound alone, without knowing the make, model or price, something difficult to do outside test conditions. Of course, if you did prefer the $50k amp to the $1k amp, but could only afford the $1k amp you might be sorely dissapointed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 21:36:23 GMT
I once saw an item on TV of a blind guy that could 'see' with his ears. he made clicking noises with his tongue (very softly even) and by using reflections of these sounds he made he could walk around without bumping into things. He could even 'see' obstacles on the pavement ! When one listens with the eyes closed or in darkness one hears better without any doubt. In the HiFi shop I used to work (repairs and service) we had a blind customer that had a very good sounding setup. He didn't care how it looked, he only listened to it, he funnily replied to a question I asked him. ;D Customers in a shop, impressed by all the nice equipment and thick impressive cables using nice lighting and stuff I do wonder how many (non audiophiles ?) let their eyes be a more compelling reason to buy stuff. Not to mention the input of SWMBO'd ..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 21:43:33 GMT
Not necessarily. Our Sydney member would most likely have helped him with advice about available high quality commercial gear, and left the final decision up to him. In this case DIY wasn't an option.
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Mar 7, 2012 23:11:20 GMT
Franz. You must have seen the film "Blind Fury". I'm sure its based on a true story (Not) !!.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2012 0:42:34 GMT
Shaun, You are welcome to give it a go. ;D Ah Well... I will dream on.... I have absolutely no idea what club you guys are talking about Hi Frans nice of you to have such confidence in me but I'm far to old to play football professionally. ;D ;D ;D i have put my name in the hat for the management vacancy though take care
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2012 6:17:07 GMT
football or soccer ?
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Post by JohnnyBlue on Mar 8, 2012 7:01:27 GMT
Soccer IS football.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2012 7:21:44 GMT
US residents may disagree...
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