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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2012 1:57:07 GMT
jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio/ripping-findings/#p3981 P.S. Several RG members will be aware that I presently have links to rips that were created using Fidelizer to minimise Windows processes during the ripping, as well as the .wav files being uploaded as uncompressed Zip files to avoid degradation by Filemail servers. Alex Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 7:59:43 GMT
So lossless compression and deflation with ZIP doesn't reduce sonic quality but using similar algorithms (FLAC, WAVPack, ALAC, WMA, Monkey e.t.c.) do. ;D a WAV converted to (fill in lossless audio codec of choice) converted to WAV and then played back seems to suffer from 'degradation'. But WAV to ZIP to WAV does not. WHAT settings should be used for ZIP ? Are these settings irrelevant to sound degradation ? Do 7ZIP or RAR for instance also not degrade the sound ? The extra processing steps packing and unpacking do not degrade the SQ but the same steps with specifically for audio tailored packing and unpacking do this ? I know you hear it and other noted people hear it and we (the oblivious tech people who don't really know anything about audio) clearly don't Just teasing Alex... mind the BP Of course you are right, I don't doubt that for a second
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 8:19:55 GMT
Frans I still find it weird that you can hear minute differences between different pairs of headphones, yet are unable to hear the other differences that so many other members routinely report hearing. If you read the latest post in the jPlay thread linked to, you will find that a muso from South America has UL a couple of short segments of his guitar playing. I am not a member there, but anybody with half reasonable gear should be able to hear clear differences, unless their brain refuses to let them to.These ones aren't Zipped , but one was with AC power and the other with battery power.Anybody who does try these , and doesn't have a closed mind on this issue should PM John Kenny with their results. I can hear clear differences, despite a long day at Geoff's 50th (new member) and BP all over the place after a heavy fall on the way back to the car. (no alcohol involved, just R.A. in the knees and no footpath on a steep gradient)
You are putting words in my mouth . I never claimed that about wav to zip to wav. I am merely saying that the limited number of tests so far appear to confirm that uncompressed Zip files seem to be less degraded after Filemail Server transmission over long haul routes. Award winning Record Producer Cookie Marenco (Blue Coast Records) provides uncompressed Zip files for her DLs, in preference to compressed Zip files. Alex
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 9:33:12 GMT
Sorry to hear about the fall and consequences.
That might be because the differences between headphones are several dB's (upto 20dB !), resonances are very different as is the phase behavior over 20 to 90 degrees and distortion figures running in several percent (between 0.1% and 10% is normal) even up to 100%. These are arguably audible.
The differences between your files appear to be in-measurable, even non-existent when compared at a digital level with every comparative test method I know of. They can only be heard. Much in the same category as interlinks. To some noticeable differences are there, yet they cannot be shown to exist by measurements.
I do like the fact that you are biting yourself into it and have found similar minded people who also have not been able to prove it scientifically, only by ear. Doesn't make it more real or valid to me just like my methods are not valid to you and like-minded people.
For you I hope there will be 'real technical evidence' (other than subjectively found by ear) that can undeniably show closed minded people you were right on the ball and there is something 'we' missed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 9:44:22 GMT
So are you now also saying that multiple listening sessions organised by one of the most respected technical writers, with the following qualifications "Chartered Engineer, MIEE,MAES. Electroacoustic Consultant" involving different people using DBT and A/B/A/ 3 minutes are not valid ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 9:56:27 GMT
I did say it isn't more valid to ME I am saying I would like to see technical evidence as respected technical writers also hear things they can never prove scientifically and when tested under controlled conditions (by scientific oriented people) do not seem to be able to repeat it. These tests are all done by 'believers'. Martin Colloms you mean who opens his website with this disclaimer (actual quote): Having written several thousand product reviews, you might expect that I would have come up with the answer to the question: Have you developed a reliable framework of technical parameters and measurements which determine sound quality? The answer is no! So yes... it's what I am implying indeed and makes me ignorant and God knows what more... I know. I don't care and so should you not care what ignorant and dismissive EE's say (at least not let it affect your BP) Countless efforts have been undertaken and no consensus has ever been reached about HOW 'blind' tests are to be performed and how the results have to be interpreted. The worlds simply don't 'mix'.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 10:11:54 GMT
Frans People like you are bloody amazing. You demand DBT testing, and when the results don't go your way, you then claim the results aren't valid. IF the results had gone the other way, you would then have crowed that you were correct all along. People who are interested in following the results of this independent investigation, which was NOT initiated by me, can click on the earlier provided link to the jPlay forum thread to see how it progresses. Alex jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio/ripping-findings/#p3981
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 10:46:31 GMT
People who like to see a technical explanation of how this is technically possible should look elsewhere though. I know I am bloody amazing... doesn't invalidate my point of view to the technically minded people I guess. I am not mad... just different (TM) also fits my avatar as well but... in a different way (I like that statement, hence my quote... this topic is not related to the individual who thought of the phrase nor is he part in this discussion, or should I say different viewpoints) b.t.w. I don't DEMAND blind AB tests. When tests are done they need to be done correctly and the results need to be interpreted correctly is my point. What I WOULD like to see is a technical explanation of the phenomenon NOT results of subjective findings. This I haven't seen (yet ?)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 11:07:58 GMT
Martin Colloms disclaimer has nothing to do with any of this. The tests are being performed under generally accepted DBT A/B/A/ 3 minute tests using different listeners at different sessions. If they all come up with similar results, then the results are statistically valid, and warrant further investigation by people with suitable Engineering qualifications after their name, and access to all of the necessary test equipment. None of this verbal sparring is adding any value to the present investigation in jPlay forum which was linked to for interested members to check out for themselves. I only added my comments in the initial post to show that I had also been investigating similar things before this thread was started in jPlay.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 11:59:41 GMT
I agree with the above, About M. Colloms's disclaimer: It shows he has not been able to link subjective found differences with technical measurements and tests in all circumstances. I agree 100%. The reason why is quite obvious to ME. (Yes, arrogant and presumptuous... guilty as charged) I concur, a scientifically sound investigation (with scientific tests) could then be started. That is if an equal amount of 'skeptics and believers' have drawn a common conclusion. Whether this will have the same outcome as the subjectively found results remains to be seen. That's my bias speaking of course ;D
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xerxes
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Post by xerxes on Mar 4, 2012 13:14:05 GMT
Remember to wear you tin foil hats at all times during listening sessions to prevent those pesky cosmic rays interfering with the results.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Mar 4, 2012 13:21:00 GMT
Alex, in your initial post in this thread, that devil as the bottom... is that a BSD Unix devil?
Are you changing to FreeBSD or OpenBSD?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 20:46:03 GMT
In other words you refuse to accept the validity of a series of DBTs because YOU don't like the results, and demand a redraw. This is a typical tactic from the Objectivist side designed to stall or bury anything that upsets the status quo. It would appear that quite a few EEs are also members of "The Flat Earth Society" and perhaps in another lifetime were officials in Salem ? ;D I am reminded of similar tactics by "The Establishment " with Galileo Galilei,including bullying, in order to retain the doctrine that the Sun revolved around a stationary Earth. They managed to delay acceptance of his discoveries for quite a few years. Alex
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 21:07:02 GMT
Alex, in your initial post in this thread, that devil as the bottom... is that a BSD Unix devil? Are you changing to FreeBSD or OpenBSD? Christian. NO, However I would be happy to try any operating system that worked with the huge variety of programs that I currently use, or do not require a steep learning curve, especially at my age. I am not prepared to install a couple of different OSs on my PC just to cover all bases though. Regards Alex
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 22:06:08 GMT
Wow impressive ! The pen is indeed mightier than the sword ! First I like to see the results AND the background (audio religion) of the participants. If they are 90% 'believer' and 10% 'wanna be believer' the outcome is already 'fixed'. Then I like to see the same test repeated in a true scientific way by truly unbiased technical people and from them there may be an EXPLANATION, one that makes sense, could come from those experiments. Then I will be convinced... It's not a tactic it's how I think/work. True technical explanations is what I want and if there is any indication something can be found I will search for it. Wasting valuable time on a wild goose chase, based on biased observations, (regardless how 'noted' they are in subjective friendly circles) is NOT how I work.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 23:15:53 GMT
Either the funking differences are there, or they aren't. What a load of codswallop!!! Using a series of DBTs, it would be virtually impossible to accurately guess which file was which and come up with similar reports of differences.If the same tracks are chosen as sounding better , and similar differences are reported over a series of DBT tests organised by an expert in the field, then there almost certainly are differences ! As you have nothing useful to contribute to this thread except your usual negativity in ALL matters subjective, except your reports on how headphones sound, which are themselves highly subjective, perhaps you should leave this thread for other interested people to make up their own minds about, without further input from either of us?
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Mar 4, 2012 23:48:07 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 2:35:18 GMT
There are now more replies in the jPlay thread. They have also given links to the same files as uncompressed Zips, with an additional "ghost" file so that instead of having to decide which file they prefer out of the 2, it is now which 2 files out of the 3 sound the same. This is independent research. Alex jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio/ripping-findings/#p3981
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 7:23:51 GMT
Ah yes... a deja vu. I remember another of your 'opponents' you bullied away ! That would be a fine day when I would stop posting opposing views (your views that is), now would it ? I thought that was the whole idea of an OPEN forum but could be mistaken. Until I responded nobody posted here. The little devil you put in the post YOURSELF was a clear provocation towards the EE's so could be EXPECTING replies...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 9:10:16 GMT
This thread is about the current discussion in jPlay forum. It's about members of another forum independently coming to similar conclusions to those I have already posted.
P.S. Another recent independent finding from jPlay forum
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Mar 5, 2012 9:54:02 GMT
It really is amazing the lengths that a self-proclaimed & pure objectivist will go to in order to deny their & others hearing. This absolute bullshit is just too funny This guy, for someone who purports to want a "true scientific way" is blind to the idea of statistical significance & it's role in science & experimentation - hilarious!! So now he wants the test performed by "truly unbiased technical people" - like himself I presume that he is trying to imply? From someone who posts RMAA results as a test of the analogue differences between two configurations, it is again a scream & I'm now ROFL. Ah well, it's pitiful that someone so biased takes up so much valuable time on the forum & in this matter anyway makes for a low S/N ratio. Granted he has offered vakuable advice in other areas but in this topic he is a liability Here's an idea, Franz - why don't you participate & PM your results to screenmusic so that you can try to rebalance the results that you seem to fear (but no need for you to listen, just post no difference )
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 10:30:53 GMT
The usual suspects converge to combine their efforts in shutting up the completely oblivious, stupid technicians that have NO clue about audio as it is a separate breed of people that is needed for that. John, may find me hilarious, pityful, ignorant and stupid but UNTIL you show WHERE the files differ and where those differences indeed originate from (TECHNICAL EXPLANATION PLEASE) my 'bullshit' is as valid as your 'bullshit'. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and an absolute hate/disgust for technical people that DARE to defie the TRUE audiophile EXPERTS. Haven't had much luck proving your findings to technical people I reckon.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 10:37:08 GMT
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Mar 5, 2012 11:09:07 GMT
Resorting to stupid remarks & an attempt to denigrate using sound-bites is only demeaning your own precarious position which has been shown to be beyond any technical or scienctific foundation - the very thing you seem to crave so badly in your life. Again, I hav eto say ths is hilarious & pitiful at the same time - I'm torn between laughing & crying
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 11:09:18 GMT
I would think that M.C. is more qualified than many in that respect, and yes, he has used the usual DBTs etc. to verify the reports about .wav files with identical check sums sounding different. The results of the HiFi Critic investigation should spur further research into the cause of the anomalies from people with suitable qualifications and access to specialist test equipment.
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