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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2011 17:03:11 GMT
Here's the other cracker. I left the K601 and the Sony 7506 going while I was away so they have a lot of hours on them now.
The Sony seems to light up on the Sunrise!! I have felt a bit puzzled by the headphone since first getting it because it sounded downright unpleasant. Nasal, stinging sound with no real bass presence tbh. I really hated it.
However, coming back to it after a two week break, it seems to have bloomed a bit. I know that Frans will think I'm off my rocker but it has altered. (I think) I'm not one to quit with headphones and can generally hear some positives in them, but this one was bloody awful at the start.
Now, it seems to separate orchestral music up like a laser. I can hear right into mixes and it has settled tonally. It's particularly on orchestral stuff which has a kind of 'natural' timbre with no feeling of a 'headphone bloom' or cloud.
It may not be the most entertaining for home use because of its laser type quality but it does actually do a lot well.
I just connected it to the Sunrise and it's really good. I can now listen louder and so it develops more bass which balances better with the cheese wire top.
I don't know if it's my head, but I may get another one to compare. The 681b change was dramatic but fast. It happened within 30 minutes or so but I have a feeling that this one needs to be caned for a couple of weeks.
You get the feeling that there's no 'enhanced' bass but it does have impact once you get the volume up. In fact, it's pretty well integrated with the rest of the sound.
Now I'm in a mess!!! The Sunrise seems to make stuff sound good. I don't know how many hours you have on yours Mike, but it's really interesting going between the 8605 and the 661.
There's no doubt that the Sunrise is a great amp. It's making everything sound great!!!
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2011 17:50:39 GMT
Something dawned on them ! Sorry about that, I couldn't resist  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2011 18:29:19 GMT
Something dawned on them ! Sorry about that, I couldn't resist Very good Chris!! It's still top edged but they seem particularly good with orchestral. Rock isn't quite so good. They still get edgy on the Sunrise but they are more under control. Funnily enough, I've been looking at the FR graph for them and they are quite rolled off above 14Khz but then, so are the K701's!! Listening to them both, you wouldn't think so!! I REALLY like the Sunrise. IMO this is a top notch tubey sound. Ian |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 9, 2011 18:59:54 GMT
Glad it arrived safely Ian.... the improved SQ is a combination of a few things.... UBER precise matched 6N23P-EB (chrome pins), Panasonic NHG 3300uF caps bypassed with WIMA 3.3uF film caps and the valve shield.... That valve shield is grounded so the little valve is not so exposed to interference... I can't back this up with science but my ears tell me it sounds better with the shield. My ears also prefered the extra capacitance (3300uF as opposed to 2200uF) and I also prefer the Panasonic house sound over the Nichicons... a lot more clarity and presence IMO. No great "guru" like magic just a couple of simple things that appeared to have enhanced things.... I will be enhancing my own Sunrise to the same specs as yours as I feel yours had a bit more clarity to mine. I think I actually prefer the look of the shield over the valve too... it just says "something special inside and I'm protecting it against invaders"  Have a feel of the shield Ian.... it dissipates quite a fair bit of heat too! I jumpered you up @ 68 0hms (output resistance) but you can change that to 10 ohms by simply moving the jumpers onto the 10 ohm links, piece of cake and I hope you try both output impedances. The Military grade 6N23P-EB is a reflector (Saratov , Russia) built in December 1989 and OTK stamped in January 1990.... it had about 25 minutes on it in your Sunrise so I expect that to get a LOT better over the next few hours / days..... valves require a bit of time to cook in before sounding their best..... Not science, just an "ear thing" again They also have a tendency to go out of spec after a while so it's worth checking them every 6 months or so.... these claims of a valve being good for XYZ amount of hours is total rubbish.... sure, they may LAST thousands of hours but they will be way out of their original spec by then These Russians are pretty solid though and will generally "sound" good for quite some time  It's much like a clutch on a car.... you get used to it over a period of 70,000 miles and think that there's nothing wrong with it.... it's only when you get a new clutch fitted that you realise your old one was FAR from smooth Much the same with old valves.... yes, they are still "glowing" and, yes they are still making "musical sounds" BUT they will have drifted way out of spec. Anyhoo.... hope you are enjoying the music Ian  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2011 20:16:06 GMT
That's the first thing I noticed. It seemed slightly more spacious and open. It still has that bottom end too - it grips the DT990 really solidly and makes the K601 seem really easy to drive. Those two work really well with it. I may get the K701 out and give that (yet) another try.
Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 9, 2011 21:31:46 GMT
That's the first thing I noticed. It seemed slightly more spacious and open. It still has that bottom end too - it grips the DT990 really solidly and makes the K601 seem really easy to drive. Those two work really well with it. I may get the K701 out and give that (yet) another try. Ian Frans will always say that all capacitors (different brands) "sound" the same because 1000uF is 1000uF etc. and the testing machine confirms this to him. My ears tell me otherwise. The Panasonic NHG (105c rated) are actually CHEAPER than the Nichicon caps so it's not a "I insist on fitting Black Gates into my equipment" (pretentious) type of thing (mostly clueless planks who think that MONEY equates to good SQ).... no no, in this "particular" part of the circuit the Panasonics just sounded "better" to my ears (more open, more fluid).... I was happy with them as they were but decided to try bypassing them with film caps (WIMA MKS4 3.3uF) and "again" noticed and even MORE "open" window on the sound. It really doesn't matter, at the end of the day, who believes what..... it's the bottom line that counts, the proof of the pudding (is in the eating) etc. etc. We ALL have different recipes, some of us stick to the book and others add their own variations / ingredients..... nothing is set in concrete. I hope you are enjoying your musical dinner Ian |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2011 21:51:18 GMT
It's been running seven hours now and the heatsinks really do their job well. It's settled into its working temperature and I can keep my hands on the heatsinks as well as the tube cover. The bar gets warm as well, so the heat is really being taken away efficiently. I think that was a good move too Mike. Taking so much heat away may well improve the long term reliability and save anything scorching down below. (!!) It does feel more 'open' to me. I don't think it's my head playing games with me. It's just a tad less thick in the top than yours was imo. It sounds fantastic through the DT990 tbh. It's so quiet now as well. Now I'm wondering whether everyones' are as quiet as this and it's just me, here that gets the noises! The transparency may have also improved since tiny levels of noise that were perhaps coming through before aren't there now so there's nothing mixing with the music, giving a 'cleaner' sound. I don't know - it just sounds more see through. The valve cover is great. It's nice and secure in there and as you say, not only stops stray rf but also dissipates the heat nicely. I like the little comments and 'Pinkie Tips' you wrote on the book!! Very funny.  Ian |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 9, 2011 22:37:04 GMT
Had forgotten about that |
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Post by whiteghost on Sept 10, 2011 11:04:38 GMT
I have just tried my Sunrise with the K601, what a hugggggggggGGGGGgggge improvement over my Audio GD C-2 : soundstage is wider, more natural and aerier, Bass slam is now a reality, you can feel the impact of the bass in your head, it's great percussive and natural...
Highs are a little more sharpen than on the C-2 but it's not a bad thing, the music seems more natural now, more living...
And the Crazy thing it's that my Sunrise is not modded, it's stock, the only thing added is the Vintage 6N23P selected by mike (thanks again).
I will wait a little before to review it, but once the review finished, i will mod it...
I was hesitating between Bottlehead Crack, Schiit lyr or asgard, Darkvoice 336 or 3322, Little dot mk IV before to buy the Sunrise...
And i don't regret it at all, the Sunrise is really a "Little Big Amp"!
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Post by whiteghost on Sept 10, 2011 11:59:23 GMT
Just a little advice for Sunrise Owner, if you plan to buy a DAC which can fit to the Sunrise, i can advise you the Audio-GD NFB-2, i have a DAC 19 DSP which is a great DAC with a similar design than NFB-2 and the Combo DAC 19 + Sunrise is excellent !!! Yes the Sunrise merit to be associated to a 450$ DAC, Sunrise is not the same price, but it's in the same league... Edit: since it's the "build thread" i post pics of mine (All is stock, led was red but seem pink or orange on the photo... ).   |
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Post by pcourtney1 on Sept 10, 2011 13:52:05 GMT
The original noises I was getting were electrical rather than airborn. Hums coming through at high volume so I think it was going via the volume pot. Moving it elsewhere in the house did change it but maybe I need some serious mains filtering. Ian I have serious issues with noise as well Ian, probably not as acute as you have, but all the same it does take the shine off a good listening session when I know its in there I am really looking forward to building my six O2 amps, the noise issues are fully documented here nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/09/noise-dynamic-range.htmlit's a useful primer to all things noise related ! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2011 14:10:10 GMT
My noise problem was possibly mains born so try another power supply. (or even filter the mains)
Mike has nobbled a lot of the possibilities on mine. He's shielded the tube and it's surrounded by large heatsinks so airborn stuff is now much less of a possibility.
He also earthed the volume control pot so I don't get noises (as I was) when I touched the pot.
At the time, I thought I would be stuck with noise, however in my case, it was only really obvious with the volume up at 1 o clock where it kind of reached a peak with my hand taken away from the pot.
Now, mine is totally silent but what I thought may have been quiet on the first one may not actually have been as quiet as I think. I suspect low level noise was coming through with the sound and was kind of mixed in because now, it sounds clean as a whistle and more open as a result.
I'm not that fussed about this O2. I dread to think what the response would be if there was a problem!! My feeling is that any problem would just be impossible and you've done something wrong!! Beware of an amp maker in denial .........
I felt that someone, somewhere is going to get a noise problem on an open frame amp and although it's not the amp playing up, there are things that can be done to the design in order to push the noise right down. The amp is merely amplifying what is already there but that's not to say you can't do something to take the source of the noise away from the amps ears!!
Mike is an expert on this. He completely copped the noise on my V2 and now he's done it again on the Sunrise.
It doesn't surprise me that someone else has heard it ......
Ian
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Post by whiteghost on Sept 10, 2011 17:40:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2011 17:47:53 GMT
My Sunrise looks really industrial with all of the extra cooling. I really like it and it runs unbelievably cool for a tube amp. I can touch the heatsinks and even the tube cover. I was listening to it for 8 or 9 hours yesterday and it's just ticking over.
In the long term, this could give it a more reliable life but I am absolutely delighted that the noises have left the building!!
I think that this amp is really stunning to listen to and the extra cooling that Mike put on is a real bonus. I don't like things getting red hot and cooling off all of the time, so I think the extra sinks are also worthwhile.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2011 18:18:52 GMT
Dead funky! Now, if you could find heatsinks in matching colours you'd really have a pimped special |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 10, 2011 18:24:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2011 18:30:11 GMT
Also Mike, I presume the setting up of the tubes should be done again after that lot is bolted on? My Sunrise is really cool for a tube amp. Well, cool to look at as well as listen to but it doesn't build up any significant heat whatsoever. I imagine the extra wall of metal could also help any airborn noise. The Sunrise is as quiet as my V2 now. Ian |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 10, 2011 18:30:49 GMT
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Post by whiteghost on Sept 10, 2011 19:06:54 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 10, 2011 19:10:35 GMT
Yes |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 10, 2011 19:29:23 GMT
Also Mike, I presume the setting up of the tubes should be done again after that lot is bolted on? My Sunrise is really cool for a tube amp. Well, cool to look at as well as listen to but it doesn't build up any significant heat whatsoever. I imagine the extra wall of metal could also help any airborn noise. The Sunrise is as quiet as my V2 now. Ian Ian, The biasing is the last job you do, yes. You can check it yourself, it's simple to do if you have a multimeter..... IIRC turn the pot clockwise to increase the voltage, anti clockwise to decrease it.... it should be hovering around the 13.5V point on both sides. You will have to pop the "lid" off (undo the four screws and lift it off) before performing any maintenance.... always leave the amp on for 30 minutes before checking / adjusting the voltage. Have you tried jumpering it to 10 ohm output yet? I just set it to 68 ohms as that was what my Sunrise was set to when you listened to it.... it's all in the manual though and the adjustments are EASY. You actually don't NEED the top plate in position, it serves no real purpose other than cosmetic. If you REALLY want to pimp the amp then you can turn the top and bottom plates into noise nulling screens Cheap and cheerful way is to coat them with sticky backed copper tape.... solder a piece of wire onto the copper tape and solder the other end to a ground connection on the PCB.... you now have two shielded plates. More expensive route is to palm Mick's hands with some coinage and get him to machine a couple of aluminium plates and ask him to fit an m3 thread in the top and bottom rear ends of the plates.... use these as "grounding points"..... m3 bolt, m3 crimp connector, m3 shakeproof washer.... clamp a ground wire onto both alu plates and connect to a grounding point on the PCB.... I think if Jeremy ever does a MKll it would be nice to see aluminium plates instead of the plastic ones.... they would still LOOK good but would also serve a purpose In fact, MKll could even be FULLY enclosed.... the amp sounds gorgeous and it would perform even better fully enclosed and using the ENCLOSURE as a heatsink! Would be more expensive to produce but I am sure people would be willing to pay for the quality AND the extra performance. Mike. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 10, 2011 19:32:57 GMT
Looks like a straw trilby too! I would always recommend a Mu Metal Trilby (for serious listening sessions) straw is just a bit too vague in the mids for my tastes.... the Mu Metal Trilby brings out spadeloads of detail.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 10, 2011 19:37:19 GMT
@ Mike, Frans, Jeremy and Ian, Sorry guys if I'm boring you by repetition but I I'll ask once more and then shut up . I have some small sheets of very fine st/st welded mesh - when I say fine I am talking micron size, its original purpose was for the filtration of fuel and hydraulics in military and commercial aero applications so think 'fine' and 'thin'. I keep reading of extraneous noise pick up being unavoidable with 'open' amps and wondered if this might help. The sheets I have (very few) are a little wider than a G2 is high and perhaps long enough to completely go round the outside of the G2 - it can be easily cut with scissors. If earthed to the main chassis is it likely to cut out any of this pick up that 'Owl Ears' Ian is getting? It might also find an application in shielding the G2 valve to do what Mikes 'monkey-metal(?) shield does? Would anyone like a sheet to try experimenting? The only problem I foresee is that if it should prove beneficial it ain't going to be easy or cheap to obtain commercially. Only tryin' to contribute . Over to you, Dave. Should be fine Dave but if you are going to build a "cage" then possibly something like David's aluminium mesh would be better www.car-spot.co.uk/item/50703/Davids+Aluminium+Mesh You can staple it onto a frame (or glue it) and it's easy to cut / bend etc. |
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Post by whiteghost on Sept 10, 2011 19:37:28 GMT
another question for Ian, with your K601 when you put the volume pot around 3 or 4hours (almost 100%) and while music is playing, do you hear a mega-distorted sound through the headphones ?
don't do this with the K601 on your ears, or you'll become dumd !!!
Is it normal ? (just tried it 1 second; i don't want to damage anything).
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 10, 2011 19:41:25 GMT
By the way... these guys send out free samples of a wide range of alu mesh (and each sample is the size of an A5 sheet of paper) so you could easily knock something up for free with a variety of free samples www.goodingalum.com/ |
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It's much like a clutch on a car.... you get used to it over a period of 70,000 miles and think that there's nothing wrong with it.... it's only when you get a new clutch fitted that you realise your old one was FAR from smooth 
