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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 10:19:32 GMT
The volume is fine Mike. You just set it higher than normal. I tend to hover around 1 o'clock as well but with a K701 it needs more. There is a really fine adjustemt with it that gtreat as it is.
I have tried the HD250. It rattles your teeth. The bass on the headphone is deep and the amp really kicks it out. You can almost feel the bass and yet it doesn't smudge over the rest.
You've done a beautiful job on it Mike. It looks and sounds top notch for sure.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 15, 2010 10:23:50 GMT
The volume is fine Mike. You just set it higher than normal. I tend to hover around 1 o'clock as well but with a K701 it needs more. There is a really fine adjustemt with it that gtreat as it is. I have tried the HD250. It rattles your teeth. The bass on the headphone is deep and the amp really kicks it out. You can almost feel the bass and yet it doesn't smudge over the rest. You've done a beautiful job on it Mike. It looks and sounds top notch for sure. Funny..... with Yell0 "Touch Yello" you only need to crank it to about 10 o'clock and that's plenty loud.... some other recordings need 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock....
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Post by dicky on Oct 15, 2010 10:27:42 GMT
Hi Folks, I hear alot of rave reviews about these HD-250's - but they're like rocking horse ..... So, what 'phones are closest to them that are available? They'll be driven by a modded X-CAN V2 (thanks Mike) and, eventually, a Panda. I'm currently using Beyer 531's - some say they're dark, but they're all I know - and I've never been a fan of (too much) treble. Regards
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 12:37:11 GMT
hi dicky I'm using HD25-1-11 with my panda and IMHO in my system they sound superb. i have not had a listen to the HD250 so can't comment on how close they are sound wise. the 25's have grrrrreeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaat bass and are so clear, i love em funny thing with this amp after half an hour of listening and getting over the shock of how good it sounds . the next thing that comes to mind is how much better could it be with better cans. rats more expense take care
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 15, 2010 12:41:17 GMT
Yup, I agree there..... they are slightly more nasal in tonality compared to the HD-250 (a bit more choked up, narrow, not as open) but VERY nice 'phones.... what pads are you using, the pleather or the velour?
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Post by dicky on Oct 15, 2010 13:18:29 GMT
Thanks shaun, I'm a noob to HeadFi so your advice is welcome. There's a bunch of those on ebay and they're not too pricey. I'll take a look into them. So what 'phones do you consider are 'better'? I really need some closed cans for when 'er-in-doors is watching the TV. Mike, You didn't exactly sell them to me with your comments - but I guess you did say 'slightly' ..... Of course the only reference point I have is my 531s. I'm guessing the vinyl pads contain more bass in the 'phone? I've never auditioned 'phones - are dealers OK with folks trying them in-store (lots of sweaty heads/ears etc)? It would be nice if anyone else could chime in? Regards,
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 15, 2010 13:43:47 GMT
What type of presentation do you like? Fat and bassy, neutral etc. etc.?
I think the closest you are going to get to the HD-250ll in the bass dept. are the Beyer DT770 pro (80 ohms) they are slightly recessed in the mids but still a very nice listen..... I will try them with the 75 ohm output impedance later on and let you know how they get on.
Is it closed back 'phones you are looking for? closed backs are predominantly more beefy in the bass but you lose the airiness and space that an open headphone can produce....
Headphones are very difficult things to recommend as we all hear things differently (an ear is as unique as a fingerprint) but if you can give us an idea of the type of presentation you like and the type of music you listen to then it will help narrow things down.
Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 14:00:55 GMT
Funny..... with Yell0 "Touch Yello" you only need to crank it to about 10 o'clock and that's plenty loud.... some other recordings need 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock....
This is what I get. I wonder whether it's something to do with the dynamic range.
I keep feeling that it's low in volume and crank it up, only to find that it's really loud without me noticing. Then I have to back it off again.
It's really strange, but I'm finding it difficult to get grip of the volume/presence. It seems really low and just ticking over until something really slams in when it is so powerful. Quiet passages seem to go right down and loud passages positively hammer out.
It makes the other amps that I have seem compressed.
The K701 has become a beautiful listen through these. The clarity is gorgeous and the sense of space in the sound is just awsome. It's like there are no headphones there.
It's a good match with the AKG; especially if it had more gain since with low level recordings, I could easily listen at full whack.
It's just a 'habit' thing. Once the pot goes past 12 o'clock, I start to get worried that it's going to run out because quite a lot of amps stop getting louder once they pass 1 o' clock. However, the Panda keeps going to the top!! It's like previously, I've been used to seeing the loudness at about 11 but stop at 1, and this thing keeps going louder as you wind to the top. (Therefore it's using the full travel of the volume pot) - so it's more subtle on the way up. I think that's possible a better idea than having half the pot travel not used.
The Senns are more sensitive and so seem twice as loud at the same setting.
The sound of this amp is really addictive. It's the best I've had so far tbh. I hate to say that because I love the X-Cans dearly, but this is into another arena to be sure.
Mike, have you tried the woodied Grado with it. I have a feeling that the Panda will widen the soundtage and put some guts into it. (Mind you, I thought it was good as it was when I tried it.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 14:26:35 GMT
hi all mike I'm using the velour pads, more comfy and sound a bit more balanced. hi Dick I'M NEW TO so don't count on what i say. ''your ears are the only way''. mike is so right about recommending phones or anything else we all have a right sound which we are aiming for which is why i put the ''in my system'' bit in. just wanted to be clear on that ;D what do i think is a better headphone? the $2567803 question one of the downsides with Hphones is the lack of a opportunity to audition before buying. do we ever have meet ups here? may help members buy with confidence and not end up with a pile of unused phones. it's a bit off a hit and miss thing this HP malarkey I'm kind of new to so I'm still looking for better phones. however the difference IMHO between the HD650 and the HD25 is errr HD650 is like sitting in a nice comfortable seat 10 rows back from the performance. HD25 (a few different 25's i have the pro version) like sitting on a harder seat at a mixing desk recording the performance. but thats just my view hope that seems fair and makes sense.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 15, 2010 14:35:30 GMT
Tell you what Ian..... I have had a quick listen to the Beyer DT-770 out of the Panda and the mids have appeared in full force!! Good god, it just drives them to absolute perfection.... it's as if the Panda has smashed through a wall and deposited a large barrel load of midrange (seriously!)... I have never heard the DT-770 play like this, fantastic! 12 o'clock on the Panda will be similar to 10 'o clock on most other amps Ian... don't use the volco as a judge, let your ears be the judge but remember that the distortion is extremely low and the sound that comes out of the Panda is as pure as mountain water so it will lull you into a false sense of security You can crank the Beyer DT-770 up to about 2 o' clock and that is pretty much ear shattering.... 3 o'clock would render you deaf Have you got a pair of DT-770 to try Ian? I think you will like. Must try the DT-150 as well.... tried the K-501 but they are just too airy fairy for me these days, I have gone full circle and am a bass head again.... I listen to a fair bit of Hammond organ (Phil Kelso) and want to hear those low notes as intended, I don't want a blurred facsimile of them. So many 'phones to try with the Panda.... one thing's for sure, it's the nicest amp I have in my collection.... now to find out what the best 'phones to pair with it are
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 14:57:16 GMT
Mike,
If the coolingfins still have a respectable low temperature you might want to experiment with the outputstage's idlecurrent. Solder 10 Ohms in parallel to the ones already in there in the emitters of the output devices and this almost doubles the class A current (from around 90mA now to around 175mA) This way it will even stay in Class A at high level peaks in low Ohmic headphones, at ear shattering levels that is. Curious to know how and if this affects the overall sound (watch the temperatures of the output devices, especially with a closed housing. Things might get hot in there as there is no free air flowing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 16:16:37 GMT
Tell you what Ian..... I have had a quick listen to the Beyer DT-770 out of the Panda and the mids have appeared in full force!! Good god, it just drives them to absolute perfection.... it's as if the Panda has smashed through a wall and deposited a large barrel load of midrange (seriously!)... I have never heard the DT-770 play like this, fantastic! 12 o'clock on the Panda will be similar to 10 'o clock on most other amps Ian... don't use the volco as a judge, let your ears be the judge but remember that the distortion is extremely low and the sound that comes out of the Panda is as pure as mountain water so it will lull you into a false sense of security You can crank the Beyer DT-770 up to about 2 o' clock and that is pretty much ear shattering.... 3 o'clock would render you deaf Have you got a pair of DT-770 to try Ian? I think you will like. Must try the DT-150 as well.... tried the K-501 but they are just too airy fairy for me these days, I have gone full circle and am a bass head again.... I listen to a fair bit of Hammond organ (Phil Kelso) and want to hear those low notes as intended, I don't want a blurred facsimile of them. So many 'phones to try with the Panda.... one thing's for sure, it's the nicest amp I have in my collection.... now to find out what the best 'phones to pair with it are Haven't got DT770 at home any more. May get another at 80 ohms though Mike. I know what you mean about these headphones. They all seem to be taking on a new life. I imagine the DT150 is going to hover on your head with the kind of bass they give out. The Panda seems to inject life into them without seeming to over emphasise. I haven't found a duff headphone yet!! The K701 has become very different. The bass almost seems separated and stronger from the rest. It's much more clearly presented. Also the dynamics just seem huge. As you say, it's a whistle clean listen and it's very easy to presume it's playing much lower in volume than it actually is.
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Post by dicky on Oct 15, 2010 21:06:41 GMT
mike, I listen to all sorts, from late 70s electronic (Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream) to jazz, indie, pop, dance and electronic. I don't listen to classical or country. I'm a bass head - my speakers have 10" subs and dipole mids/highs; I like low frequencies, tight bass - fast, controlled transients. I find bright systems disturbing and grating. As I mentioned earlier, I've been told the 531s are dark - if so, I think I must like dark - in a 'phone at least. However, I also like open and neutral mids (dipoles) - I have a feeling this may be difficut to achieve in a single 'phone. If I can't get the sound I'd like in a single headphone then I'd consider 2 pairs - closed back when I don't want to disturb the 'boss' and maybe another pair for when she's out. I guess I'd be happy with the 531s with more bass and maybe more open mid-range. It's difficult to say without ever hearing another pair for comparison. @ shaun All advice received without prejudice or commitment Given your analogy, would you say the 25s would be more fatiguing? @ everyone I realise that this is all subjective and I am just hoping you guys can point me in the right direction and help narrow my choices down for me. I appreciate your guidance. Regards,
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 21:37:28 GMT
Deep bass, lively, not harsh or trebly but still detailed, definitely not silky smooth, not coarse either and very dynamic is the description of the HD25 I would not say fatiguing but it is more involving. Don't feel its the best can for low level listening while relaxing, HD250 and DT770 are better suited. HD250-II and DT770 (and HD681) is circumaural and will heat up your ears, especially on a hot day. They both rest 'softly' on your head and are lightweight. HD25 are earpad types and clamp (not subtle) on your ears but will not break out in sweat. Not everyone is fond of that pressure on the ears and could even hurt if your ear shape is sensitive of pressure on it. Be sure to buy the right version not the cheap 25-SP, this one sounds horrible and only 'lives' on the fame of the original one. The good one has the divisible headband and is there in many variations, mainly differing in cord type. If you want more silky highs the HD250-II is the way to go (Colin has some to sell) If you are not too picky about the bass quality (a bit boomy) the DT770 might be worth investigating. You can make it less boomy by stuffing it with the right amount of wool but the bass will always be of less quality then the HD250. If you don't want to spend more then 50 Euros consider the HD681 or HD681-B (better colorscheme and less exaggerated bass too) but they both need filter modification and velour pads to be acceptable. Without this I would not consider them. This discussion should not be in a Panda thread really... You could perhaps make a new thread in the headphone section with this question. All these cans will play very good on a Panda. The HD25 is not good for all types of music, a second can for other occasions/moods is almost obligated. Great for rock and electronic, wouldn't use 'm much for jazz, this screams for a more silky set of cans. Well... at least this is my opinion and am one of the '@ everyone's.'
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 21:44:51 GMT
I don't use one headphone exclusively and that's the way around each headphones' 'weak' areas.
HD650 - bassy, extended treble with a laid back sound. Hd600 - smilar to HD650 but more polite and less bassy. Not so laid back. AKG K701 - very open, clean sound. Analytical. Goes deep if there's good bass on the recording and it manges to escape through your system! ATH ad700 - clean sounding and easy to drive. Less bass weight than the HD600. HD250 - a colourful listen with huge low bass and strong treble. Beyer DT150 - fat bass and laid back at the top. Good for listening loud for long periods. Beyer DT770 - closed, fat bass and extended treble.
and so it goes on ....
then there's the portable headphones .....
It depends on how loud I want to listen and what exactly I'm listening to as to what I'd choose to listen on. I'm not particularly attached to one headphone.
I don't think there's one headphone that I'd rest exclusively with now. Over the years, you build a collection that you start to get to know very well and can match easily with amps and what you want to listen to.
I'd hate to recommend one headphone above another. I find all of my headphones good in different ways.
Mike, I've been doing some extended listening on the HD600. Once I get aclimatised to the sound, I find it OK. In fact, I can listen at quite low levels and it's rather nice. Not the fat bass of the HD250 but it's a fine sound. Listening to Yello and the Shpongle album you mentioned and the amp really does peel away the layers doesn't it.
I just love the bass quality on it. (Not volume - but the warm, rich detailed sound that it gives so easily) I also tried it with the HD650 and as expected, it's fatter. OK with some stuff but I don't particularly care for it on orchestral stuff - the HD650 seem to take the string edge away for me. (Depending on recording) I'm more comfortable with the HD600 - it's a very 'balanced' sound although as you say, it hasn't got the sparkle and glitz of the HD250.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 15, 2010 21:50:07 GMT
mike, I listen to all sorts, from late 70s electronic (Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream) to jazz, indie, pop, dance and electronic. I don't listen to classical or country. I'm a bass head - my speakers have 10" subs and dipole mids/highs; I like low frequencies, tight bass - fast, controlled transients. I find bright systems disturbing and grating. As I mentioned earlier, I've been told the 531s are dark - if so, I think I must like dark - in a 'phone at least. However, I also like open and neutral mids (dipoles) - I have a feeling this may be difficut to achieve in a single 'phone. If I can't get the sound I'd like in a single headphone then I'd consider 2 pairs - closed back when I don't want to disturb the 'boss' and maybe another pair for when she's out. I guess I'd be happy with the 531s with more bass and maybe more open mid-range. It's difficult to say without ever hearing another pair for comparison. @ shaun All advice received without prejudice or commitment Given your analogy, would you say the 25s would be more fatiguing? @ everyone I realise that this is all subjective and I am just hoping you guys can point me in the right direction and help narrow my choices down for me. I appreciate your guidance. Regards, If you like your bass and appreciate fine music such as T-Dream, Kraftwerk, Yello, the odd bit of dub, the occasional bit of shpongle and dash of anything else then the 80ohm Beyer DT-770 will not disappoint with the Panda driving them. The DT-531 are pretty MOTR compared to the DT-770. You certainly don't want to go down the K-701 /02 route.... they have bass but not as we know it Jim.... deffo NOT the 'phone for electro. I feel really bad constantly droning on about the Senn HD-250ll as you can't buy them any more..... unfortunately I have a pair and they kick ass in the bass dept. like no other 'phones I have heard..... when I first got my pair of HD-250 I thought there was somethingwrong with my amp! I had NEVER heard bass like that through a pair of dynamic headphones.... ever since that introduction to headphone "bass" I now expect it in all dynamic headphones but none come close.... The closest I have in my armoury are the 80 ohm beyer DT-770 followed by the Senn HD-25/1 ll (both closed back headphones).... to my ears, the Beyer DT-770 are exactly what you are looking for.... they are stunning driven by the Panda (seriously!) it cuts through the midband "veil" like a knife and is the only amp I have heard (to date) that can totally "bitch slap" the DT-770 and make them perform to their full potential. Absolutely PERFECT companions to the Panda... they work together like dance partners... both feeding off each other, both in time with each other and both becomming "one" in an eargasmic, flowing, sensual, musical and highly enjoyable fashion.... superb!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 21:52:17 GMT
;D That's a great line!!! Yes, I agree Mike. You know, I may end up getting another flippn' DT770 'cos of the amp now!! (I gave the other one away) Oh well, I was going to get an 80 ohm version anyway.
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Post by dicky on Oct 16, 2010 5:55:51 GMT
Hi folks, thanks for all your replies. Solderdude - noted.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2010 8:26:36 GMT
Listening last night Mike, low levels on the Panda. it still retains good focus/interest. In fact, I could keep backing down until the bass eventually started to fade away so just adjust a tad up.
You can listen at very low volume and it's highly engaging. The bass slam remains and it still shows the big dynamic range.
Maybe it's some kind of aural trick - I'll try measuring the volumes in dB, but to me it seems to be going louder and softer in peaks and troughs of music.
Another thing that it's doing is ruthlessly pointing out differences between headphones. The HD25 sounds fine portable and you get a good solid bass from it. On the Panda, you get the same bass, but it goes no-where near as low as better headphones.
The K701 goes amazingly deep and so does the Senn Hd600. The Senn doesn't separate the bass away from the rest of the spectrum quite as much as a K701. I'm not sure which is the better although hi fi folk lore will say K701. The HD250 rattles your skull down there.
I'll get a Beyer 770 from work and try it. One thing I never liked about the Beyer was the recessed mids. I've often wondered why the BBC love them; especially DJ's because the recessed mids and fat bass gives 'boom' on mens' voices. Frans was saying earlier that the BBC use a different version, but I haven't seen one. I have a 'pro' version at work - maybe that's the one?
It feels to me as though the Panda is giving a lot of headphones a run for their money and giving them a better signal than they can resolve in some cases!!
know that the HD25 is used a lot on location by pros, but it's not nearly in the same league as others on the Panda. That's something I had not really noticed so clearly until now. At least the pros (mostly) use them for just monitoring.
The more you listen, the more detail comes hopping out of it. Especially in the 'depth' of sound whcih some headphones just don't provide. However, if the surce isn't sending it out, then no-one would notice I suppose which is why the HD25 is so popular for portable users perhaps? Plus the fact that it's so easy to drive.
The ATH AD700 is truly awful in the deep bass. Never realised how awful until now. It just doesn't go deep. The amp has kind of put me off them.
Ideal for me would be a headphone that is tonally between the K701 and the HD600 with low impedance so it's easier to drive. That would be suited to my tastes/ears.
Have you tried your modded Grado? Don't do that after the HD250 though because it will sound very thin .....perhaps?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 16, 2010 20:37:20 GMT
Ian, I have been as sick as a parrot today, just laying on the bed, this cocktail of antibiotics I have been prescribed is making me awful so I haven't had the inclination to try a variety of 'phones out of the Panda. I don't listen like you, I prefer my volume a "bit" louder When I'm typing away here I will back it off a fair bit, otherwise I can't hear myself think, but when I'm listening to music (and doing nothing else) I like it at realistic levels and crank the notch up a bit. Not quite sure I understand what you mean re: the "louder and softer" passages? On my Panda loud passages are loud and softer passages quieter.... so you're saying yours is going "louder" on loud passages and "softer" on soft passages? Sorry, maybe it's the medication but I don't quite understand The Beyer DT-770 (80 ohm) are very nicely balanced through the Panda.... more bottom end than the HD-600 yet not as open as the K-701, I definitely think it's a good "all round" type of listen though. The DT-770 I have are WELL worn in, I think they lived in a recording studio... I'll send them over so you can have a listen, see what you think... don't worry, I washed the pads a few weeks ago It's pretty crazy all of this, so many different combinations to try and never being fully satisfied.... I think we all need to get out and listen to some good live music to remind ourselves what REAL music sounds like, I think we are spending way too much time analysing and too little time enjoying the music itself.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2010 20:46:29 GMT
Sorry to hear you're still not right Mike. That's been going a while now so it must be pretty miserable for you. What I mean by 'loud and soft' is it has a seemingly more wide dynamic range. More punch when the band is hammering and it seems to have more attack than a lot of amps. You really hear the effort going into the playing and then it kind of subsides right back in quieter passages. Don't send the DT770 Mike. I'll pick one up at work. I'm sure there are some lurking around. It's pretty crazy all of this, so many different combinations to try and never being fully satisfied.... I think we all need to get out and listen to some good live music to remind ourselves what REAL music sounds like, I think we are spending way too much time analysing and too little time enjoying the music itself.Yes. Sad eh. But for me, it's a case of getting in and listening to recorded music!! I'm loving the sounds from Mr Panda. It's making all my headphones sound really nice!! They won't do that abscess until they clear up infection will they? So you have to take the whole course before they'll do your teeth. I had that a while back. Look after yourself.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 16, 2010 20:59:41 GMT
My Face was out like a balloon on Monday I have been taking metranidazole and amoxycillin ever since, it has gone down a bit but it still is swollen and feels like someone's smashed me in the gob with a chair leg.... still uncomfortable to eat but nowhere near as painful as it has been (and I mean mind blowing pain) and pain with no relief whatever I took! tramadol, co- codamol, nurofen, dihydrocodiene.... the works.... the antibiotics have helped to get the pressure off the nerve so now it's just a continuous dull thud instead of a head exploding, tear inducing, MAMA HONKER session of the most extreme pain I have ever felt.
I'm going to insist the dentist pulls the offending tooth right out on Monday, I've had enough of this!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2010 21:32:30 GMT
Hopefully it's at the back? Tooth ache is sheer misery. The pain is indescribable. You've been remarkably quiet about it Mike tbh. I thought you'd have a rage and a rant on here because if it were me, I'd be screaming blue murder, even on the internet!!! I have such a big gob you see.
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Post by meliphicent on Oct 17, 2010 7:21:03 GMT
Sadface I've just finished populating the board with resistors and there are 5 missing. I've left a message for the guy on ebay. Looks like everything else is there though so I guess I can start putting in the rest of the smaller components.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2010 8:37:45 GMT
To true!!!!!
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