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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 9, 2010 21:27:57 GMT
If I were an amp producer I would incorporate an impedance selector switch but I'm not so I won't
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 9, 2010 21:32:28 GMT
Listening to K-501 right now and cannot (by ear) detect any real difference between 82R and 120R..... both sound much the same to me. If "anything" the 120R has slightly narrowed the stage but we are talking "minute" differences here and, certainly, nothing that would be noticeable to most people's ears. Right, I'm welding the hatch shut on Panda two tomorrow.... time to enjoy the "music"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2010 21:39:36 GMT
That's why I think 4 to 6 settings will be more then enough. Before you close it up might I suggest you listen to 10 Ohms and 82 Ohms ? Just use a switch to parallel 2 12Ohm resistors to the 82 Ohms you already have in there. around 75 Ohm IS very universal indeed. The expensive amps often have 0 to 10 Ohms output impedance... Even I can hear differences between 10 and 120 Ohms. That's why my builds all can be switched between these 2 impedances, except my portable amps they are only 10 Ohms because they don't deliver enough voltage.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2010 21:40:34 GMT
That's what I find. It's very subtle until you get to a value where the amp seems to run out of steam and sounds dull with no real dynamic range.
Having said that, I do have an adapter that Frans made for the Superlux (to calm them) and the Senns to release the 'bloat. Both work. It's subtle but quickly taken on and off, or (what I did) put two into the same amp and switch and then you notice. (The Presonus amp has 4 outputs) Handy for comparisons.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 9, 2010 21:54:40 GMT
That's why I think 4 to 6 settings will be more then enough. Before you close it up might I suggest you listen to 10 Ohms and 82 Ohms ? Just use a switch to parallel 2 12Ohm resistors to the 82 Ohms you already have in there. around 75 Ohm IS very universal indeed. The expensive amps often have 0 to 10 Ohms output impedance... Even I can hear differences between 10 and 120 Ohms. That's why my builds all can be switched between these 2 impedances, except my portable amps they are only 10 Ohms because they don't deliver enough voltage. Frans, When I build Panda three I will incorporate an impedance selector.... I'm bolting the hood down on Panda two tomorrow.... like you, it's a "time" thing at the moment..... not enough of it..... A day is more like an hour used to be and a week more like a day.... has somebody tampered with time?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 9, 2010 21:59:55 GMT
That's what I find. It's very subtle until you get to a value where the amp seems to run out of steam and sounds dull with no real dynamic range. Having said that, I do have an adapter that Frans made for the Superlux (to calm them) and the Senns to release the 'bloat. Both work. It's subtle but quickly taken on and off, or (what I did) put two into the same amp and switch and then you notice. (The Presonus amp has 4 outputs) Handy for comparisons. Jesus Ian.... how many amps do you have now? You're almost as bad as me! Shouldn't we be outside sniffing the roses and marvelling at what this beautiful planet has to offer us? I sometimes wonder JUST what I'm doing sitting here listening to other people singing in my ears..... It's pretty insular isn't it?
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Post by clausdk on Oct 9, 2010 22:01:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2010 22:25:57 GMT
Claus,
The workmanship there is great. I remember the first collection of 'wood' which has turned into a real piece of furniture there. Well done.
Hopefully, you are liking what you hear? Have you set the DC Offset as near as poss to zero?
I'll have the Mk 2 here soon and just can't wait to hear one.
Mike - 3 (or 4) made for me by Norman. (Go Vibes?), Pocket amp, Move, variations of the Bravo, Old Porta Corda, Presonus, HP4 I mentioned to Frans a week or so ago to avoid 'cos of hum), Aune, X-Can V1, V2, V8, V-Can, a busted Banzai V7, Two Necos, Fiio E3, E5, E7.
Not to mention the ones I've sold - Solo, Earmax, and others. Let alone headphones ......
Mostly cheapo stuff. (All used in my aural education which is probably how I developed an 'ear' for listening) Maybe we'll give them away in competitions eh? I regard it all as part of my training!!
However, the Panda II looks like it's going to be the one!!
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 9, 2010 22:28:56 GMT
My Panda after first coat of oil.. From the top The front The back It still need at coat or three to really come to full blossom, but the first coat always is very pleasing.. That's looking very nice Claus What type of oil did you end up using?
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Post by clausdk on Oct 9, 2010 22:42:26 GMT
The Dcoffset is at 000 mv and 001mv according to my messurements. I am sure you will love it Right now I listen to Phil Collins "In the air tonight", it just sounds amazing, the small drums that plays in the background is giving a felling of small touches to the ears quite cool.. I do not know if it the best amp. in the world, but at the price it is the bargin of the century.. You would have to throw some serious money at an amp to get a better one that is for sure..
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Post by clausdk on Oct 9, 2010 22:45:51 GMT
I have used linseed oil based furnitureoil, I looked a bit for Tungoil but it not very used in Denmark, apparanrly we do not have all those old furnitures standing..
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 9, 2010 23:42:48 GMT
I have used linseed oil based furnitureoil, I looked a bit for Tungoil but it not very used in Denmark, apparanrly we do not have all those old furnitures standing.. You've made a very nice job of it Claus
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Oct 10, 2010 2:29:23 GMT
Hi Christian, What you're describing is exactly what I was getting; especially on the first pair. There was something just 'wrong' with the sound. AKG admitted nothing. They just confirmed a fault and because I tend to go to a private dealer, more notice was taken. (Also because of my job) The second pair still need to be turned up to a point where the focus 'snaps' and then stop there!! However, as you say, it also depends on the music. Alex kindly sent me some wavs to compare though and it has made me realise that I need to look more at my source. I'm not kidding, but any more bass would have been too much on these files. They are outstanding and I compared one to the original CD. It made me realise that the headphones are like lasers and point out very tiny nuances and differences in sound. Much more so than the Sennheisers which tend to print their own sound sig on top of whatever you put through them. I suspect that's why some people don't like the senns - the planting of another sound sig on top of the original set up!! The K701 seems really flat and analytical so it tends to show everything. If you'd have asked me a few weeks before how I'd rate the K702, then my answer would have been quite pessimistic. They sounded simply to flat (which they did not at the beginning). I've tried a few things today and I know now what the problem is. I'm absolutely sure that I have used the K702 with too low volume settings. I compared the K702 and a few other 'phones with the PreSonus HP4 today. My first guess was that the K702 needs an overall bigger SPL than the other 'phones to give as much musicality as the other 'phones do. It was very suprinsing to recognize that I've used the K702 at substantially lower SPL as the other 'phones. I guess the big soundstage of the K702 made me think that it is alreay louder than it actually was. I'm using the K702 now with more power (not a very big difference on the pot though) and – surprise – they sound now marvellous. I've got great results with the HP4 and now I'm listening to the Neco Portable V2 – also with great results. The stereo effect is especially good with the K702, maybe because of the big soundstage. Channel separation is really good with the Neco Portable V2. I'd have rated the K501 better than then K702, but now I'm not that sure anymore. The bass I'm hearing at the moment with the UCA222+Neco Portable V2+K702 combo is very good. Even more bass than the HD650, but not coloured. IMO the K702 is harder to drive than the HD650. The K702 is very picky about correct amping. One of the best reason to buy a PreSonus HP4 are its four headphone output. As you have said, it's great to compare headphones. It's a great training for my ears. I've learned already a lot thanks to the HP4. I hope to get the V3+PinkieSE soon (the parcel was stopped by the customs and I have to declare it correctly), I'm very curious how this amp drives my 'phones. The PANDA thread is also very, very interesting. It looks really like an über amp. I'm almost sure the K501 does also like the power of the PANDA. And what about the K401? My K401 was bought used and I had to wash the pads several times. They sounded rather disappointing. You already know how they have sounded: too flat...The K401 is 120 ohms (like the K500/501 and the K301). I had great results with K501, but the K401 seems to need even more power. Maybe it should also get new pads for it (probably those of the K601, K701 or K702). The pads of the newer AKG's should give more bass. I've posted already a link about this in the K501/K701 thread.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 7:07:07 GMT
The reason why some cans need to be played 'louder' then others has to do with the SPL they are designed to be used at. This, again, has to do with how the EQ was tailored to fit in the dBa curve. ( I believe Alex made similar remarks in the past too) The more 'flat' HP's (Audeze, AKG K501-K702,DT880, HD580, HD600) are more suited to listen to on somewhat higher volumes as the dBa curve becomes flatter as the SPL increases. The cans with more 'loudness alike' curves (HD250II, HD681, DT990, DT770, HD650, SR840) already sound good at lower volume (SPL) and tend to sound more 'over the top' at higher listening levels,
Ofcoarse this doesn't mean these cans ONLY perform 'lifelike' on specific levels. They can be used for quite a sonic range in SPL's.. they just have a preference to start sounding 'right' from certain levels.
professional cans are usually are intended for higher SPL to sound their best because it is mostly used during the day and at higher levels like those in studios which are played back at higher levels then at home, this does not 'appear' to be the case but is obvious when you hold a SPL meter in your hand and do comparative readings.
My home speakers are also 'built' to be heard at a high SPL. They sound lifeless and 'flat' even boring at lower levels... but boy.. when you crank it up to 'real life' levels (an acoustic band playing not amplified levels) the ecstacy begins.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 8:19:13 GMT
I'm very fond of the HP4. I think it's not had the publicity it deserves. I've had one for a very long time and it's one of the things I've never wanted to get rid of.
IMO it matches really well with the K701. It's 60 ohm out and warms the cans up a bit so the addition of a further 60 ohms wouldn't harm and would help the warmth a little more too. (The correct output for the 701)
It amazes me how we see so many reviews with no reference to loudness. The first thing I do with a new headphone is to test where it starts to 'snap in.' For me, that's really important, or else it becomes a 'boring' listen. I do the same for amps since they also seem to make headphones 'snap in' at different levels. For me, the volume is really important - rather like the brightness and contrast on a TV picture. An 'incorrect' volume doesn't give the natural kind of sound that I listen for and the depth to the back. I find that the 'depth' (Front to back) compresses with a wrong setting and you lose the sense of space.
I tend to play the HD600 louder. It snaps in further up the scale than the K701. My work headphones go really loud and still don't really turn nasty. That's because it's all geared up at 'life' volume for me to work along with - very loud.
For hi fi people, they would seem dull but for work they're perfect. (DT150) However, some people like it dull at low volume!! That's why I tend not to use them at home. For me, they're not right on a domestic headphone amp. BBC use a lot of Beyer DT770's for some reason - (mostly dj's though so that's probably why) Technicians tend to stick with DT100/DT150. We're all listening for different things.
I wonder whether the K701 needs a huge amount of power behind it i order to hear proper transients. That could be one of the problems, but I also feel that they require an amp with a 'warm' tinted output in order for many people to feel comfortable with its sound.
For me, the amp is a kind of 'refiner' of sound. It a translator of what comes out of the source into the interpreter - (The headphone) You kind of adjust the 'accent' to suit your own tastes and ears and that is the hard bit.
If you're lucky, you can find people with similar tastes/hearing to your own so you get steered the right way for yourself, but so often, people are steered by random reviews/comments about gear that isn't necessarily right for you.
We don't all want a neutral sound!! That is a fact that many sound engineers don't get. I'm lucky with my team because they actually listen to what I say but in the bad old days, these people neutralised a lot of music to the point of boredom which is why I don't like my own work from the early days. They've sucked the guts out and the sheer energy and power is missing. Thanks to engineers who knew better than everyone else!!! All they cared about was whether it was neutral which is not real life anyway. If you see a live show, it's full of distortion and room resonance, so the only time we hear 'neutral' in in a headphone. Even then, it's not!!!!
I am really looking forward to this amp!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 8:49:10 GMT
The' studio' DT770 has a different sound compared to the 'hifi version' of the DT770. It's not only the looks that are different. the hifi is more intended for lower level listening and the studio version for higher levels and there is also a version with a higher clamping force for better insulation of outside noises (drummers, studio and on-site recordings). Here is an interesting experiment for you Ian: Listen to the Panda without the line buffer and with it. The harmonics spread/level of the buffer will likely ad the warmth you seek for while maintaing the SQ of the Panda for driving the HP. We all listen differently. Musicians know how real instruments sound but hear them (at least the ones they play) closer then listeners would in their audience seat. be it because the instrument itself is loud (drumkit, brass) or they stand in front (or back) of their own monitors (guitars, keyboard e.t.c.). The harmonics spread and level and thus EQ due to the SPL curve of the human hearing differs from when listened to at a greater difference beacuse the SPL drops quickly when the distance is increased. This makes them search for different properties in cans then those that only sit in their seats listening to artists performing and want to experience this at home too. Musicians experience this when they listen to other artitsts from a distance but can still envision how the instrument sounds 'up close' and thus 'incorporate' this in their brains which are simply 'wired' differently. People that know how real instruments sound often don't realise that they are listening to this at rather high sound pressures. (trumpets, drum and guitarists in front of their amps) Listen to a drumkit or trumpet/sax, whatever, being played in a livingroom or a piano that is played as if it were in a concert hall. Hold a dB meter in front of it and notice how loud it actually is. WAY too loud for 'home levels' certainly in long evenings listening sessions. When you want to experience a similar thing at home and would have a 'flat' reproducing you would have to play it equally loud. because this is not recommended some headphones have a curve that lifts the bass and treble part so it matches the EQ you would get at a higher level and thus make instruments appear to sound similar then when they were reproduced by a flat reproduction at a (much) higher SPL. That's why they invented the (hated by hifi enthusiasts) loudness button. Alas this works only reasonably well when the source doesn't produce too much volume (output voltage) AND the speakers or headphone have the proper sensitivity to match the SPL curve it is supposed to mimic. Mostly this is not matched at all (far from it even) to the loudness level making the effect more 'extreme' and doesn't make it sound right at any level anymore. a proper adjusted loudness (this effect varies with the position of the vol pot) gives you the proper EQ even when playing at very low SPL. Too bad it got a very bad reputation because of this not matching thing. I tend to do a similar thing as Ian does.. turn up the volume till it sounds 'realistic'. Play too soft and things get boring and dull. Play too loud and you get listening fatigue because the brain tries to 'adjust' for proper EQ. Want too play at a higher volume... grab flatter cans... want to lsiten at lower levels ... grap the 'curved' cans. Sometimes one simply doesn't have the proper cans on that match the present SPL. This causes people to be unsatisfied with their cans and makes them look for other cans that sound 'better' at the SPL levels they prefer to listen to. After some time they prefer other levels agin and grab their can they didn't like that much anymore and 'rediscover' it until they like another SPL again and grab the other can again. Recognise it ? There is no can that plays well at all volumes. That's why it pays of to own a few of them that sound 'different'. Too nice wheather here... have to go outside instead of typing away..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 9:15:10 GMT
I didn't realise that Frans. I thought the BBC ones were there because they're cheap. (So is the BBC) So the Beeb DT770 is tailored? Probably lowered the treble since I did have a shop DT770 which for me was a bit 'steely' in the top with a suck out in the middle and a bass boost!! I never noticed at the BBC and put it down to source/amping. They may be 600 ohms as well I think? The drummers version has a volume control in line I think. Drummers don't understand what to do with it though!! Here is an interesting experiment for you Ian: Listen to the Panda without the line buffer and with it. The harmonics spread/level of the buffer will likely ad the warmth you seek for while maintaing the SQ of the Panda for driving the HP.I'll try that Frans. currently, I've been leaving it in line. I have no idea why, but it does help. However, it also depends what I'm using as the source. This is a bit of fun - the Ipod into the buffer into an amp. Makes an Ipod a lot better!!!! So ....... anyone interested in making a PORTABLE buffer? Now we're talking serious portable!! Ipod to Buffer to amp to headphone.......... Presumably not a tube buffer though 'cos that would get hot in your pocket!! No-one done that yet? The Ipods tend to sound a little cold so the buffer makes it sound quite nice, although the dynamics get squashed because the Ipod output is Crape shoes. taking the load away from it makes sense. (or making it better in the first place)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 9:30:50 GMT
Why on earth would you want to use a buffer with the Panda? It has a FET input which will give it a small amount of warmth, and as Mike reports, it is the best amplifier he has ever heard. Mike obviously thinks it doesn't need a buffer .It obviously has quite a decent output stage too. Alex
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 9:57:17 GMT
Why on earth would you want to use a buffer with the Panda? It has a FET input which will give it a small amount of warmth, and as Mike reports, it is the best amplifier he has ever heard. Mike obviously thinks it doesn't need a buffer .It obviously has quite a decent output stage too. Alex I don't particularly Alex. The amp will only amplify what it's fed so I'll try with and without just to compare. From the CD players I don't think it's necessary but if you feed anything else like an Ipod - it is. Before you ask - I have Ipod recordings that I don't have on CD. I wonder now whether you consider the buffer to be a form of 'colouration' or a matching device? I suspect you thing the X-10 a form of colouration!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 9:58:01 GMT
Ian likes what the tube buffer 'adds' (I am 100% convinced it's not an impedance matching thing as there is nothing to match, except levels). That's what makes it interesting for Ian. Driving the HP's with a a good output stage/amp. Mike might well be right it doesn't need a buffer at all, even for Ian. It DOES add something Ian likes so this makes it a fun experiment for Ian.
Imitating the characteristics of tubes with other parts is not an easy feat. This is because of the amplification and the curve (and thus the harrmonics spread and level of each harmonics in relation with the ground waves it 'adds' to) of a tube is different from other SS parts (MOSFETS, FET's, Transistors). FET's do have a somewhat similar gain and V/I characteristic to tubes but they are not THE same and thus resulting in un-similar results. Those that tried have 'failed' or simply limited the bandwith which effectively 'warms up' the sound but still is NOT quite the same.
There are special tubes that run on really low voltages and have 'cold' cathodes. These were intended for low current consumption use (portable) BUT, again, also have different characteristics to the more common tubes and hence... other 'distortion' too. Some like it, some don't ... personal.
Totally forgot to comment on Claus's woodwork.. Well done Claus !
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 10:02:55 GMT
That's probably it Frans. I'll have a go with and without in any case.
Tell you what, Alex had some STUNNING wavs that were awesome listening. If anything - they had some kind of characteristic that reminded me of a GOOD valve sound. Hopefully, he hadn't equalised them but it's quite amusing that a digital file can actually sound valve-like and many digital people really like it!! I tested the files with guys at work and they were knocked out by the quality - most often said phrase - Beautiful, valve like!!!!
If they weren't so damned huge I'd go digital. They are truly stunning.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 10:13:06 GMT
These were probably the Telarc recordings. Telarc KNOWS how to record things and those engineers know what they are doing. They sometimes (mostly ?) use tube amps in the front-end when recording and don't like the compressors limiters where most engineers nowadays seem to 'get off' on.
I have a lot of Telarc samplers and some CD's. If had to 'impress' someone with my gear I always start and finish a listening session with a Telarc CD or something with similar quality.
The funny thing about an experience is: One remembers the first thing (Ahhh erlebnis, they never heard it that good) and the last thing they heard. Everything inbetween is 'nice' unless something spectacular was inbetween.
Jazz at he pawnshop also works well but for some reason only for those that like Jazz. Telarc samplers and 'la folia' always does the trick regardless of preference .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 10:18:57 GMT
Aha - that would account for it. Alex didn't let on. I just had two copies of the same pieces to compare. both good but on the 'good' version, there was an added 'fruitiness' and depth to the sound which instantly made me think - quality valve amplifier. The imaging also 'seemed' better.
One was a FLAC converted back to wav and the other was a wav created in the special way that only Alex can do!!! It was damned good too.
My computer just didn't know what had hit it!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 10:19:32 GMT
That's probably it Frans. I'll have a go with and without in any case. Tell you what, Alex had some STUNNING wavs that were awesome listening. If anything - they had some kind of characteristic that reminded me of a GOOD valve sound. Hopefully, he hadn't equalised them but it's quite amusing that a digital file can actually sound valve-like and many digital people really like it!! I tested the files with guys at work and they were knocked out by the quality - most often said phrase - Beautiful, valve like!!!! If they weren't so damned huge I'd go digital. They are truly stunning.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 10:35:14 GMT
Digital is the future, I think. Once we get MASSIVE drives that aren't physical so breakdown is less of an issue.
If stuff is ripped to the standard that Alex was getting, we will all end up with the same set up!!
In the meantime, I can't wait to hear/see Mr Panda. It sounds special to me, whatever I use to listen or drive it with.
However, it is one trigger that would start me off on a headphone hunt because I am aware that my current stock is ok with the stuff I'm using. However, if there's more resolution/depth/imaging to be had, I'll be off like a shot for something else!!
Also, Alex has in all truthfulness made me question my front end. Something that I accept as being OK just because of cost and blame everything else for whatever .......
I also suspect many of us do this.
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