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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 21:29:04 GMT
OK Israel,
If they don't sell abroad, I doubt that they'd knock the VAT off. VAT here is 20%
I can get them via Amazon UK and I am wondering whether it would be possible to have them sent as a 'gift'. I'm not sure what the situation is with regards to tax at your end if I did send it.
I sent Alex a CD in Australia via the same route and that was fine, but because of the value, I'm more concerned that you would be paying UK and USA tax together.
Anyway, there are others that can supply abroad, but I am also thinking about fakes because I know that they are rife.
A more 'normal' price in UK is around £230. Hughes is cheap and they're for real. You have to be careful of fake ie8's.
I never realised that you'd 'tuned in' to HD650. I've used the HD580 - HD600 - HD650 for years at home. (Not at work) They have a lovely warm sound that are very different from the K701 and I felt that you'd maybe not like it. Once again though, (as you know) amping is important.
The funny thing that I have found with them is where most people try to compensate for the 'so called' Senn veil, I have kind of done the opposite and tried to match the amp to help the Senn strengths. That way, they kind of excel for instance in the fast bass I was talking about earlier and a drop dead gorgeous mid. Then I leave the treble to fend for itself and at certain volumes, cymbals just shimmer.
I also find that the volume that you listen at has a great effect on the perceived sound. Almost an opposite to the AKG!!
I have fought with the K701 for some time and found that the Panda amp helps them quite a lot. I use the X-Cans with the Senn hd650 and recently, Mike did a mod on my V8 and I added a new Little Pinkie power supply so that the Senns are really being driven well.
I often try different headphones but end up going back to the Senn sound.
One I've been trying recently that I actually like, although it's not as revealing is the ATH-A900. It's a closed headphone that's warm and punchy so I can listen in the room while everyone is watching TV!! I'm quite taken with them - the funny thing was that when I first tried them, I thought they were terrible but after a short period, for some reason, I felt that they had changed quite a lot. More than any other headphone I've had actually - so it made me start to think about this 'burn in' thing and whether it truly exists. The changes in the A900 have puzzled me and it seemed to happen very quickly.
Anyway, the ie8 has this inherent warmth that is part of the better Senn headphones so if you're happy with that, you may well like them. They do have a big bass once fitted in your ear properly, but getting a good fit is difficult for some.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 22:08:54 GMT
Hi, Ian After I wrote the last post, I decided to 'outsmart' Amazon USA, and logged on to Amazon UK. I saw the IE8's for something like 172. 22 GBP or such, and did a dry run ordering them with my US user name; they automatically waived the VAT, bringing the price down to about 142 GBP; with the shipping and US customs deposit, the price went back up to about 173 GBP, which amounts to about $282 USD shipped , and which would save you the trouble of having to go through the pains of shipping, etc. I did not complete the order, and deleted it because I was not sure if they are genuine. If you think that these are the real thing, and not fake, I will soon go ahead and order them via that route. About the HD650, as well as my HD600 -- I like them both very much, now that I have matched them with suitable amps such as the Necos (both the portable and the Bossfet). They never sounded good on my Chinese tube hybrids, or my two other SS portable amps (Little Dot Mk1) but needed that Neco solid state transparency and cleanliness of sound to bring them to where my ears want them to be. Indeed, the HD650's are now more and more used, without either of the three various Frans filters of different configurations that I have, one of which Frans made for me, and the other two put together by me. I will wait for your response regarding the real/fake question on the IE8's and probably go ahead and pull the trigger. All the Best! Israel P.S. Update a couple of hours later: My trigger finger was getting a bit itchy, and I went ahead and pulled the trigger this evening after having read Amazon UK return policy. So, if the IE8's turn out to be fakes, which I doubt, I will simply return them. I have had very good experiences with returning defective items to Amazon USA. They also would provide prepaid return shipping labels, etc. From what I read, Amazon UK should behave similarly. I also saw on Google that Amazon are an authorized dealership for Sennheiser, so I feel OK ordering from them. They should arrive the latest by May 17 if not sooner. I will report about my first listening impressions as soon as I can. Cheers! Israel
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Post by elysion on May 10, 2011 23:17:15 GMT
I never realised that you'd 'tuned in' to HD650. I've used the HD580 - HD600 - HD650 for years at home. (Not at work) They have a lovely warm sound that are very different from the K701 and I felt that you'd maybe not like it. Once again though, (as you know) amping is important. The funny thing that I have found with them is where most people try to compensate for the 'so called' Senn veil, I have kind of done the opposite and tried to match the amp to help the Senn strengths. That way, they kind of excel for instance in the fast bass I was talking about earlier and a drop dead gorgeous mid. Then I leave the treble to fend for itself and at certain volumes, cymbals just shimmer. I also find that the volume that you listen at has a great effect on the perceived sound. Almost an opposite to the AKG!! I have fought with the K701 for some time and found that the Panda amp helps them quite a lot. I use the X-Cans with the Senn hd650 and recently, Mike did a mod on my V8 and I added a new Little Pinkie power supply so that the Senns are really being driven well. I often try different headphones but end up going back to the Senn sound. Ian, I know you have quite a few portable Neco's. If you get a chance to try the Senn's with a MOSFET/BOSSFET, I'd be very curious what you think about it. IMO the MOSFET/BOSSFET with AD8160's is perfect for the Senn's. My HD650's sound so much tube-like with the MOSFET amps that I'm almost believe to listen to one of my Mike-modded X-Can's. Frans was right about the very low output impedance of the Neco MOSFET/BOSSFET. According to Neco, it's about 2-3 Ohms. I'm thinking of getting also a HD600. The only one of this series which I don't have. Maybe a better cable would be also an option. I also love the AKG's, but I've made also similar experiences as you. I like the very huge soundstage of the K702, especially Dark Ambient music sounds very good with them.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 5:54:40 GMT
OK Israel,
That's good news. I didn't know whether you could or couldn't order via that route. That's where mine came from, but I went for the Hughes one below because I know that they are OK.
The Amazon ones are fine and if you suspected anything, they'd want them back like a shot!! I presume that you know what to look for? It's quite subtle.
Now let's hope you can get a good fit. That seems to be the biggest problem for many. I have to use the large buds. I've also ordered some 'harder' types just to see whether they're better.
Hi Christian,
no, I've not heard the Mosfet. I think I'd do as Israel has done and put ad843 in. It's a great opamp. I was a bit miffed that the portable didn't have enough power for it because it's a gorgeous sounding opamp imo.
There's been a lot of good things written about it and I have been tempted, but I am up to my neck in amps and like Mike, I'm beginning to look like a museum here!!
8610 and HD650 are good in the portable Neco actually, but I do like the opa227. Probably because that's one that I often hear at work and all over the place. It's quite well regarded. However, I prefer a full sized amp (mains) for them since they seem slightly better controlled in the bass to me, although the Neco will work fine with them.
Where are you getting the HD600 from Christian? I don't think they're available any more so it would have to be second hand.
It's an ugly looker imo (!!) but sounds very balanced. It's a kind of half to three quarter house between the K701 and HD650. They're very balanced but they are hard to get new now.
EDIT: Sorry - just had a search and I think you can still get them!!
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 7:28:42 GMT
Hi, Ian I am encouraged by your words about the IE8's authenticity, etc. I also think that the fit will be an issue with me as well. I also have pretty large ear canals, and will probably need the larger cushions, but will only find out when I get the earphones. Not to compare, but the Etymotic ER4's that I have were a problem fit (also had to use the biggest cushions to get any kind of bass) until I had them fitted with a pair of great custom molds, made by Westone, whose plant is located right in my hometown in Colorado. Were it not for the excellent fit, which they did for me with careful listening tests on my part at their plant, I would have gotten rid of the ER4's by now, but the custom molds markedly improved the bass, which, while still not sufficient enough for me, is now passable. If you decide to get the Neco Bossfet amp, and plan of using the AD843 op amps, I would suggest you ask Neco to raise the gain to 11 in order to keep them stable, and prevent any oscillation and clipping. My portable Neco couldn't supply enough voltage for them (they require a minimum of 10V, and typically around 12V), so I immediately removed them and installed them with a Brown Dog solder type dual adapter in one of my old SS amps - The Little Dot Mk1 head amp, which has a built-in Li-Ion battery power supply of 14.8V. The AD843's fit well in it - no oscillation (graininess) or distortion - they improved that little amp to the point where I use it from time to time now with my Senn HD25 II phones -- seems to be a pretty good match. Even the ER4's seem to do well with these op amps - they seem to benefit from their extended bass response. Time for me to go to bed now! It is almost 1:30 AM here, and I am fading fast!..... Cheers! Israel
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 10:19:26 GMT
Although I get quite a good fit with the ie8, I am getting some others made of a slightly harder plastic than the Senns which are very soft. Sometimes. having a more rigid bud helps to seal.
If they're easier, then I'll let you know Israel.
I also have a pair with a custom mould and boy do they give bass? Amazing for such a small speaker.
Yes, the 843 takes some driving. I could hear it when I put it into the portable and went straight back to opa227 which is kind of between 843 and the standard opamp.
For me, the breaker is the quickness of the bass response so that you get a good, strong attack which clears to let the rest of the sound through. However, if the tone starts to become too toppy, I have to just turn it down and then bass impact becomes lost. That's why I feel that the op227 is a good compromise.
Edit - I just received the new UE tips and put them on. I used to have the Triple Fi and those tips always fitted me better than anything else.
I got them onto the ie8. They're just a bit tighter than the Senn ones but because the tips are slightly harder plastic, they grip better and I have got a much stronger seal. The result is an even bigger bass. I'm not kidding, they're DT770 level, even on the lowest setting.
The nice thing is on the Neco with opa227, the bass is more controlled. It's strong but punchy. The amp actually makes quite a difference to the quality of the bass. You can listen at ridiculously loud levels because they are so smooth; they just fatten up and in no way go harsh, which is quite a feat for an iem.
The Neco (gain 3) is perfectly quiet with them as well. With such low impedance headphones, you can often detect hiss but I don't get any so it looks as though the Neco and ie8 are really good together. The Neco doesn't change the basic sound in comparison to straight out of the Ipod, it just seems to get a bit more grip of the bass which is quite enormous on these new tips. With a fitted ear piece the bass is huge and now, the cheap little tips are matching the custom moulded ear pieces that I have so I don't look like a deaf person any longer with those earpieces!!
They really sound like full sized headphones. However, their signature is basically opposite to the K701. They're bass led and I have to keep the bass adjuster at minimum.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 20:15:40 GMT
<snip> Edit - I just received the new UE tips and put them on. I used to have the Triple Fi and those tips always fitted me better than anything else. I got them onto the ie8. They're just a bit tighter than the Senn ones but because the tips are slightly harder plastic, they grip better and I have got a much stronger seal. The result is an even bigger bass. I'm not kidding, they're DT770 level, even on the lowest setting. The nice thing is on the Neco with opa227, the bass is more controlled. It's strong but punchy. The amp actually makes quite a difference to the quality of the bass. You can listen at ridiculously loud levels because they are so smooth; they just fatten up and in no way go harsh, which is quite a feat for an iem. The Neco (gain 3) is perfectly quiet with them as well. With such low impedance headphones, you can often detect hiss but I don't get any so it looks as though the Neco and ie8 are really good together. The Neco doesn't change the basic sound in comparison to straight out of the Ipod, it just seems to get a bit more grip of the bass which is quite enormous on these new tips. With a fitted ear piece the bass is huge and now, the cheap little tips are matching the custom moulded ear pieces that I have so I don't look like a deaf person any longer with those earpieces!! They really sound like full sized headphones. However, their signature is basically opposite to the K701. They're bass led and I have to keep the bass adjuster at minimum. Ian Hi, Ian I also have a whole bunch of UE tips (larger grey ones, that I had ordered some time ago) left over from the Tripple-Fi's that I mentioned earlier. I will try them on the IE8's as well, and hopefully find a good fit. Speaking about the custom molded Tripple Fi's, I decided to tinker a little with them, and was able to get a little more treble by playing around with the two ear wax filters installed in the dual sound/air channels of the molds. It seems that when I pull the filters a little further out from the sound/air channel, the treble increases, and balances better with the bass. This is obviously, something that Fisher Hearing Technologies wasn't too good at adjusting, so, maybe I will be able to fine tune these, and not have to throw away! I haven't gotten around to ordering the opa227's yet, but I will soon do this as well. Pretty soon all this will add up to quite a collection of op amps that are filling up my parts boxes! ;D Cheers! Israel
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 20:31:14 GMT
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Post by daveathall on May 12, 2011 12:15:38 GMT
I received one of these amps this morning, to say I am delighted is a huge understatement, the amp is solidly built and screams quality, it came fully charged and after a very brief listen from my Mac Book pro through iBasso CB04 3.5mm jack to jack and on wards through Sennheiser IE8s I can report that my first impression is that this is under priced, (I have no idea what the components inside cost or how it is put together, and that does not bother me) it just sounds brilliant too my non golden ears, I believe I have obtained a true bargain, I am very pleased with my purchase and will give more impressions after owning and using it for a little while longer.
I will echo the facts as above that the IE8s do benefit from being fitted properly, I have changed this morning from a comply small fitting to a medium fitting plug, the difference in the sound is not small.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2011 12:28:41 GMT
Absolutely. The funny thing is that the ie8 benefits from the Neco. It's something like 16 ohms and so must be swallowing a lot of current. I found that the bass tidies up a bit with the amp since it is a humungus bottom end to say the least. I'm really happy with the slightly harder UE tips. They grip better and I get a full seal, so the bass is really full and developed. Probably a little to much for some, but I'm thoroughly enjoying these iem's. It's the Neco that really cleans them up compared to straight out of an ipod or Touch. The Neco is a stunner. I've swapped out the opamp for another and it's slightly improved it for me as well. Lovely, solid amp. Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 6:34:35 GMT
Hi, Ian My ie8's arrived today (2 days from UK, Wow!) At first listen I was extremely disappointed -- none of the tips included fit right, hence all I was hearing was middle and treble -- no bass! I tired all the tips that I had left from my UE Tripple-Fi's -- no luck! Then, I remembered that I had some tips left from the time before I had fitted the Etymotic ER4s with custom molds. I had about 8 large Etymotic foam tips (really huge - 18mm diameter uncompressed), I removed the narrow hard plastic tube that they have inside, and fitted a pair to the ie8's, and lo & behold!!! The sound blossomed out with huge, but tight bass, very fine treble, and no loss of transparency!!! Thanks for your input in helping me decide to get these. I have them now connected to my iTunes library on my computer via the Neco portable, and will let them play in a while, however they sound magnificent even out of the box, once I was able to fit them into my big ears with a proper seal! Cheers! Israel
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 7:51:07 GMT
Hi Israel, I'm really surprised at the speed of delivery. Brilliant. Did you use the first ie8 dealer on Amazon? That is amazingly fast. Glad you were able to go that route since it becomes a lot cheaper for USA guys. It's a pity that John Grado doesn't do the same for Brits. I emailed him about that!! (and he answered!!) I was concerned that you wouldn't like the sound sig if you were tuned in to the K701. For me, the ie8 is a lovely, comfortable sounding device that I use onstage. That way, I can block out the dreadful noise I make and turn it down in my head to be able to then hear and play properly. Also it protects my hearing. I wasn't joking when I mentioned jet plane levels in a previous post!!! (onstage at least) I am so glad that you are not like so many 'youngsters' who get something like this and have a problem with the fit so they chuck it away and condemn it on chat boards as a useless headphone. You really get stuck in eh? Now you have heard that the sound is all due to the fit. That's exactly it Israel. Even better if you can get a mould taken and have a custom earpiece made. They produce enormous bass quantities that way. I know that this kind of negates the idea of something like an iPod and iem, but the Neco will get the bass much more under control. However, mine are set at a gain of 3 so it is easy to do with such a sensitive headphone. If you have a smaller amp with the same characteristics, it really does help the ie8. When I'm working, I generally get engineers to eq the sound for me and take some of the bass away to aid transparency so that I'm able to pick myself more easily out of the mix. (They also send my feed slightly louder to my headphone) I tried an ibasso mini amp but for me, it accentuated the bass even more so I've been looking around for a mini amp for real portability. I have another really cheap amp somewhere that is tiny so I'll find and try it. (it's a cheap little Fiio) I think I'll be hard pushed to find anything as good as that Neco though. I can see you changing the cable next Israel because you're not a quitter!!! I am curious about a silver based cable in case it helps to tidy up the bass without an amp. I'm not generally fussed about cables on a headphone since I have had some of these 'exotic' things and if I'm honest, I couldn't detect a massive difference. I felt kind of conned at the price levels charged for them. However, if it works for you, then that's fine, but I must admit a curiosity about a silver cable for these just in case it helps the bottom response a tad. I once had a Cyrus set up with speakers. (Cyrus 2 with Cyrus power supply going into some floorstanders from Cyrus as well. I found it a little boomy (probably room effect) so I changed the cable to flat Mission stuff. It was horrible!! Solid silver core parallel in a flat configuration. The sound got even tinnier so I went back to my old stuff. I can hear cables on speakers but so far, headphones has been a puzzle to me. I don't really hear great changes. That hasn't stopped my curiosity though. It's really easy to change the cable on the ie8. Once that bass is under control and you can get it away from the 'kid's ideal' of 'boom boom' sound, it is a really revealing and stunning listen. The key is the controlling of that bass. Now you have a good fit, you'll understand what I mean by bass. It's almost sub-woofer level!!! I use UE Triple Fi buds on my music listening ie8. I don't wear customs in public. They blot out too much and I'm in danger of being run over and it makes me feel conspicuous. I had a Triple Fi for some time but changed over to some Klipsch and sent the Triples to Mike to have. However, I think Mike's uncomfortable with portable music and stuffing iem's in his ears. Good job he doesn't do what I do for a living!! Anyway, I'm really glad you like it. I found the same- brilliant out of the box. I have a feeling that you'll want the bass more controlled though in time. EDIT: I've had a listen with the Fiio E5 from an Ipod. It cleans the bass up as well so is ideal if you want to move around with an amp attached. I've read that the E5 is a tad warm, but it helps the bass control on the ie8, just like the Neco. It's like a big postage stamp and clips to your shirt and seems a good option mobile and is really cheap to buy. (It's roughly the size of a Nano) So it looks like Neco at home/hotels and Fiio on the move. To be honest, in the Ipod's case, it is probably just the fact that I'm avoiding the volume control and going from the dock connector with a long (very cheap) lead to the amp so avoiding the volume control entirely and getting a line out. However, using the Neco really shows how good this little box is even on an iem like an ie8 and also, beautifully silent with no noise. It's a lovely amp really. Does anyone know whether it's possible to go digitally from the line out of the Ipod and send the signal to a digital amp? Does anyone make a lead for this? I can't find one. Israel - one last thing about the K701 in particular. When Mike made a Panda for me, he also sent a 38 ohm adapter in order to make the Panda 120 ohm output. This 38 ohm adapter has a very subtle effect on the treble of the K701; even on other amps which have low output and so can't drive a K701 at 120 ohms. In order to try to 'even' up my headphones, I keep the adapter attached to my K701 and it just slightly 'dulls' the top end somewhere and you have to turn the amp up a small amount in order to restore the volume. However, on orchestral music especially, it helps takes away that 'glare' that you can get on loud brass and slightly helps the bass response as a result of turning it up. I know you're handy with a soldering iron (I'm useless!!) but it's worth doing imo. It makes the K701 even less sensitive but there is a sound improvement. My 38 ohm adapter is a good compromise between 0 ohms out and 120 ohms out; especially on low output amps. I love the clarity of the K701 but hate that 'glare' on brass but the addition of just 38 ohms just takes the edge away slightly without knocking the volume off. (Even on the Neco which is low ohm output) Ideal for me would be a 38 ohm, a 75 ohm and a 120 ohm. I played around with a device that Frans made for some time and it does help the K701 in particular - just in case you're torn between the rounded Senn sound and the relatively thin AKG sound. (I know that I am and I hover between the two) Orchestral for me is better on the K701 but I stick this adapter on. Pop/rock/jazz - I prefer the Senn. Actually, the HD250 II is a good compromise. It has an extended treble but also a big bass end. A kind of middle of the road between the two sound sigs. Just a suggestion to stop you getting rid of the K701 should you start falling for the 'dark' side of the Senn sound!! (Sorry I talk so much!!!) Regards Ian
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Post by elysion on May 14, 2011 10:10:37 GMT
You guys made me try again how my Sennheiser CX500's sound. I HATE earbuds and that's the only pair I own at the moment. Fit is better than with all other earbuds I have tested so far (not many TBH...), but I'm still convinced that earbuds are not for me. I simply can't get comfortable for a long time with them. I've noticed also that the sound gets better if I use the Neco portable V2 between the iPod and the CX500's. The portable has AD8160 opamps. I'm really suprised how much those little 16 Ohm earbuds can take. Bass and isolation is imo very good for earbuds in this price range. Midrange is not bad, but maybe the treble isn't as good. I did not a really serious comparison since I don't like earbuds at all. I'm sure I have genuine CX500's, they're not faked. Ian, if you like, I'd send the CX500's over to you. They are yours if you like them. I'm still sure that I can't live with them for long, but it's only a question of comfort, the sound itself isn't bad. The big question (for me) is why I can't get comfortable with earbuds. I know it's only a matter of the right fit. The CX500's come with an assortment of rubber plugs, but the most comfortables of them still aren't comfortable enough. I'm almost sure the plugs aren't the problem. Most likely the earbuds (everything that isn't made from rubber) are too big for my ears. My ears are normal sized, but the cartilage in front of the ear channels is too narrow. At least I guess that's my problem. A few CX500 reviews: www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_4/sennheiser-cx-500-earphones-11-2007.htmlreviews.cnet.co.uk/headphones/sennheiser-cx-500-sound-isolating-earphones-review-49295479/www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/434404/sennheiser-cx-500-reviewAt least in theory, it should be possible since the dock connector itself is digital (just as the connection to the computer is digital). The problem is that the dock connector is copyrighted by Apple. You have to pay license fees to use that connector and develop own solutions for it. The exact specifications of the dock connector are secret (unless you pay license fees too Apple). Maybe some 3rd party iPod docks go the digital way, but most likely they aren't really portable and they output still analog signals in the end. It's also hard to find good quality dock connector to mini-jack cables. The cheaper ones are from China and sold through ebay. I don't have such cables at all. I use a rather simple "Rock Cable" with mini-jacks on both sides. Those cables are from Neutrik and have Neutrik plugs (although those are made in China). I'm satisfied with the quality, at least for use with the Neco portable V2. I think that often the quality of the plugs is the most important aspect of a cable. The rather cheap "Rock Cables" gave me good SQ. Their Neutrik plugs make a difference. The cables itself aren't very thick or of some sort of special quality. They don't even advertise them as "OFC" or whatever. I've used also "Profigold" cables, which have rather good quality cables, but the plugs of them aren't the same quality as the Neutrik plugs. In the end they don't sound as good as the "Rock Cables". I guess that the plugs/connectors make the real difference between them. The "OFC" hype is IMO mostly something for advertisements. Grado talks about "UHPLC" (ultra high purity long crystal). I'm sure it's just the same stuff sold by others as "OFC" (oxygen free copper).
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 11:02:00 GMT
Hi Christian, That's very kind, but I already have them!! and the 400 and the 300 None of them match up to the ie8 but that's not surprising given the price. The only problem with ie8's is getting that fit right for you only. So many people fit iem's incorrectly and then pronounce them as crap!! However, I know that it is a problem for a lot of people. (Me too) The softness of the rubber tips can have an enormous effect on comfort and seal. Funnily enough, I know (from my own experience) that for my ears, I need slightly harder rubber than the Senns. The UE's seem to work best for me. The best way out of it is to get a mould taken and go for the ultimate. The fit is perfect but you go around looking like you're deaf!! These devices are great if you move around (like me), otherwise maybe not the best for you. I really like the Senn PX200 II. It must be the new version though. Excellent sound. Also the V-Jays. Actually, I like the V-Jays so much, I may try the C-Jays which I hear are better. They're good for 'movers'. Going from the Dock into the Neco gives a lovely sound. (In spite of what people think of Ipods) It really cleans it up big time and I have heard reports of people getting a digital out from it to go into an amp and that would be ideal. If I found a lead that could do that, I would be looking for a portable digital amp for sure. I have a Bithead, but maybe something better. I would love one of those American portable amps (I can never remember his name!!!) I don't look because it's too tempting but unfortunately, it's expensive too!!! Makes the Neco look even better imo since it is extremely good value. I love those little amps. I'm using opa227. AD8610 is just a tad toppy for me and I'm used to opa227. It's used quite a lot in pro gear I think. I know that it's well regarded. Well, you got me thinking about the other Neco option (V2 Bossfet)and I NEARLY did it last week. I just thought ...... no more money!!! I resisted ...... just. It's just that Neco (That's not actually his name) is such an honest and helpful guy and his gear is .... amazing. I've always felt that private builders with hi fi as a hobby are the best guys to go to for help. Especially if they know what you're after and don't try to ram what they think is right down your throat!! Once you find a good'un, it pays to stick with them!! It's a pity we're all so far away - you could try an ie8 and see if you can get a comfortable fit. The trouble is that it's a lot of money to risk on such a tricky thing, which is why I got a little nervous about Israel and encouraging him to get one. For me, buds are great when I'm moving around a lot or if I'm just bored doing the shopping with the wife!! Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 21:20:22 GMT
Hi Israel, I'm really surprised at the speed of delivery. Brilliant. Did you use the first ie8 dealer on Amazon? That is amazingly fast. Glad you were able to go that route since it becomes a lot cheaper for USA guys. It's a pity that John Grado doesn't do the same for Brits. I emailed him about that!! (and he answered!!) I was concerned that you wouldn't like the sound sig if you were tuned in to the K701. For me, the ie8 is a lovely, comfortable sounding device that I use onstage. That way, I can block out the dreadful noise I make and turn it down in my head to be able to then hear and play properly. Also it protects my hearing. I wasn't joking when I mentioned jet plane levels in a previous post!!! (onstage at least) I am so glad that you are not like so many 'youngsters' who get something like this and have a problem with the fit so they chuck it away and condemn it on chat boards as a useless headphone. You really get stuck in eh? Now you have heard that the sound is all due to the fit. That's exactly it Israel. Even better if you can get a mould taken and have a custom earpiece made. They produce enormous bass quantities that way. I know that this kind of negates the idea of something like an iPod and iem, but the Neco will get the bass much more under control. However, mine are set at a gain of 3 so it is easy to do with such a sensitive headphone. Hi, Ian I am simply overjoyed over these incredible iems! ;D As they play in, the SQ seems to balance out more and more, and they do indeed sound like full size headphones with all the glory of a large stage and air around the instruments. I set the bass to the lowest setting, and there is plenty of it! And, what I love about it is that the bass doesn't get in the way of the midrange and treble, hence the sound, while full, yet remains transparent enough to allow every detail in the music to shine through, not analytically, but as in a concert hall! For much of this, I credit the Neco portable with the AD8610's. I have the opa227's on order, and will try those too. Also, at this point, not necessarily for financial reasons, with the large Ety foam tips, I don't feel the need for custom molds, for I get plenty of bass, and excellent noise isolation. Custom molds can be a PITA , with all the refitting and re-doing until they get it right! I read a lot of mixed comments about these iems on the web, and it seems that most of the negative ones are written by kids that don't appear to know what they are talking about , or by other reviewers, who spent most of their columns talking about unimportant things such as how pretty the iems are, or how poorly designed the box is, how soft the cable is, and such, but precious little about the phones' SQ . From previous experiences, I was already quite aware of the importance of a perfect fit for iems to perform right, and this is the reason why I didn't quit until I found the right tips for the ie8's. I think I'll be hard pushed to find anything as good as that Neco though. My sentiments exactly! When I travel, I always carry a briefcase with me, and the Neco with my 160GB iPod, which contains just about my complete CD library in Apple lossless files, doesn't take up that much room, so I have no problem taking the Neco portable wherever I go. I don't carry any music with me when I go for walks so that isn't a problem either. I can see you changing the cable next Israel because you're not a quitter!!! I am curious about a silver based cable in case it helps to tidy up the bass without an amp. I'm not generally fussed about cables on a headphone since I have had some of these 'exotic' things and if I'm honest, I couldn't detect a massive difference. I felt kind of conned at the price levels charged for them. However, if it works for you, then that's fine, but I must admit a curiosity about a silver cable for these just in case it helps the bottom response a tad. I once had a Cyrus set up with speakers. (Cyrus 2 with Cyrus power supply going into some floorstanders from Cyrus as well. I found it a little boomy (probably room effect) so I changed the cable to flat Mission stuff. It was horrible!! Solid silver core parallel in a flat configuration. The sound got even tinnier so I went back to my old stuff. I can hear cables on speakers but so far, headphones has been a puzzle to me. I don't really hear great changes. That hasn't stopped my curiosity though. It's really easy to change the cable on the ie8. All my full size headphones, except the old Sony MDR-V6, and the Nakamichi SR7, have been re-cabled by me using bulk Cardas cable, and Cardas rhodium plated plugs. To my ears, they offer a marked SQ improvement, with good controlled bass and extended treble, while helping in achieving the transparency that I like. I had two Moon Audio Silver Dragon Cables (solid silver), which initially made some changes in the sound, but more so in making the sound thinner, and almost brittle sounding, so I sold them on eBay, and went for the Cardas, which I think is a much better cable. Unfortunately Cardas does not offer a cable that would be light enough to use with iems, and as much as I tried to get connectors that would plug in to the Etymotic ER4s that I have, as well as the UE Tripple-Fi's, and the ie8's, I could not find a merchant that sells them. So, my Ety ER4s sport a Chinese silver plated OFC cable complete with gold-plated connectors, and the UE Tripple-Fi's do that as well. Both of these, again to my ears, do offer a good improvement in the treble as well as controlling the bass noticeably. Today I ordered an OFC silver plated cable complete with gold plated connectors for the ie8's from Hong Kong. I will let you know my personal impressions after I had a chance to audition it. I use UE Triple Fi buds on my music listening ie8. As I mentioned earlier I have the same UE Tripple-Fi tips that you ordered recently, but they simply are too small for my ears. I have been told by an audiologist that my ear canals are unusually big, and Westone also commented on this as well when they made my Ety ER4s custom molds. Perhaps this is the reason that in my ripe old age I still have good hearing! EDIT: I've had a listen with the Fiio E5 from an Ipod. It cleans the bass up as well so is ideal if you want to move around with an amp attached. I've read that the E5 is a tad warm, but it helps the bass control on the ie8, just like the Neco. It's like a big postage stamp and clips to your shirt and seems a good option mobile and is really cheap to buy. (It's roughly the size of a Nano) I have never heard of the Fiio E5, but will search it on the net. Do you know of a good source for it, just in case I decide to spend some more of my hard earned cash? ;D Israel - one last thing about the K701 in particular. When Mike made a Panda for me, he also sent a 38 ohm adapter in order to make the Panda 120 ohm output. This 38 ohm adapter has a very subtle effect on the treble of the K701; even on other amps which have low output and so can't drive a K701 at 120 ohms. In order to try to 'even' up my headphones, I keep the adapter attached to my K701 and it just slightly 'dulls' the top end somewhere and you have to turn the amp up a small amount in order to restore the volume. However, on orchestral music especially, it helps takes away that 'glare' that you can get on loud brass and slightly helps the bass response as a result of turning it up. I know you're handy with a soldering iron (I'm useless!!) but it's worth doing imo. It makes the K701 even less sensitive but there is a sound improvement. My 38 ohm adapter is a good compromise between 0 ohms out and 120 ohms out; especially on low output amps. I love the clarity of the K701 but hate that 'glare' on brass but the addition of just 38 ohms just takes the edge away slightly without knocking the volume off. (Even on the Neco which is low ohm output) Ideal for me would be a 38 ohm, a 75 ohm and a 120 ohm. I played around with a device that Frans made for some time and it does help the K701 in particular - just in case you're torn between the rounded Senn sound and the relatively thin AKG sound. (I know that I am and I hover between the two) Orchestral for me is better on the K701 but I stick this adapter on. Pop/rock/jazz - I prefer the Senn. Actually, the HD250 II is a good compromise. It has an extended treble but also a big bass end. A kind of middle of the road between the two sound sigs. Just a suggestion to stop you getting rid of the K701 should you start falling for the 'dark' side of the Senn sound!! (Sorry I talk so much!!!) Regards Ian First, let me assure you that the AKG K701 will stay with me until I leave this earth! I still like them very much for certain recordings, but I will ask Mike, and/or Frans about the specs of a filter, and try to put one together. Mike, If it isn't too much trouble, would you post a schematic of the adapter? Thanks! Frans, I would also appreciate seeing a schematic of the device that Ian mentioned, if not too much trouble! Thanks! Cheers!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 22:04:00 GMT
Hi Israel,
The k701 is best when the amplifier output is at 120 ohms. Unfortunately, lots of perfectly good amps don't have enough power to offer this and are set very low. This makes the AKG a bit edgy. So my 38 ohm adapter is a compromise that just takes a tiny bit of edge away but is still low enough to let the amp power it. I never realised just how important this is with some headphones until I borrowed Fran's device. The effects are subtle and not as simple as just the top end becoming calmer. It seems to flatten the headphone response even more. The AKG and Audio Technical headphones seem to give a more pronounced response to headphone output impedance. Beyers also show it. The DT880 and 770 benefit from 120 ohms.
The Neco is very low (like many amps) so it will tend to accentuate the top, which is perhaps why I'm happier with opa227. However, to my ears, the K701 is the most accurate tonally when listening to most orchestral recordings. As long as I have a filter in line. The brass are a dead giveaway on them when there is no filter on a low output impedance amp. They just turn too edgy and since you like Mahler, then you would notice this I imagine, on peaks. I certainly do without filtering.
Trouble is, they can sound so lean on jazz where you want to almost feel the thud of a bass played pizzicato. The K701 seems to sometimes lack that bass presence and it's then that I turn to the Senns.
Timps on the ie8 are unbelievable!! As you say - real presence like in a concert hall! The Neco just makes them behave a little better. Also, more use gets them to settle. Again, you're spot on although many people don't think that headphones change. I do. Some very slightly. Some not at all. The most dramatic change I've heard in a headphone is the Audio Technical A-900. They really settle with time. Funnily enough, they seem to alter in the quality of the treble rather than bass. They seem to become more refined.
I would LOVE to hear your comments on a change of cable to silver on the ie8. You never know- it may get the bass even more under control. I definitely heard a large difference with silver speaker leads.
In any case, the Neco and ie8 make a really good sound from IPods. I also have a 160g Classic (full up) a couple of Nanos and a Touch which is brilliant for touring because it plays films, music, podcasts and also streams from the internet. Fantastic in hotels with wifi.
Well, you certainly are a progressive gentleman Israel. I'm 57 and I hope I retain as much enthusiasm and 'get up and go' like yourself. I think playing music keeps you young in your mind and so interests such as hi fi become very appealing. Especially with all the helpful and friendly characters out there.
Different when you see their faces though!!! Have you seen the thread with photos? Very strange when you see the face of someone you've been talking to for more than a year on the Internet!!
I posted my picture somewhere and Mike told me I look so 'ordinary'. Not good for a pop musician's image!!! I'm unrecognisable now since most Internet stuff is way out of date and the real thing is older than those pictures so I think it best to retain the image because the mirror is telling me a lot about my age now!!!!
Funnily enough, my father died 6 weeks ago and he retained his 'younger' looks almost to the end. I was with him when he died and even then he was worried about how he looked. He had a 'twinkle' in his eyes to the end so I hope I can be like that. I took a synth in to hospital and played for him and then the rest of the ward as well. It's a nice way to remember him since he always kept himself young with his own interests in painting and foreign languages!!
Anyway, I really look forward to how that cable will sound.
Regards
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 22:29:43 GMT
the device is just a few resistors that can be switched in series with the headphone. The Neco's are very low Ohmic ... that's why HD650 sound good with them and K701 less. The Mossfet has enough output voltage to warrent the use of a 120 Ohm resistor so the K701 will sound better but the HD650 will sound darker again (the 'veil').
You can't use a 120 Ohm series resistor with portable devices or low output voltage amps. This will severly limit the maximum output swing and everything will sound undynamic and lifeless when you do.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 22:46:57 GMT
The 38 ohm one I use has a tiny effect on the K701 so the amp hasn't got too much work to do. However Frans, you'll have me getting the MOSFET next!! Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 1:27:32 GMT
Hi, Ian Thanks for all your kind comments! At my ripe old age, interests such as the ones you mentioned, in addition to many others are what keep me going. At heart and mind, I am still a kid, who gets excited about doing things, and the only limiting factor is that at my age it takes a little longer to do them , hence as one gets older, time seems to fly! I find myself busier now that I am retired, with less time available than when I was younger and playing concerts, touring, teaching, and spending a lot of time with my hobbies. It seemed then, that there was always enough time to take on more and more responsibilities, etc! Now, I stay up late at night, trying to keep up with my interests, which to me, are a lot more intriguing than sleeping, but sooner or later it catches up with me, and I do give into the need for sleep, though reluctantly, I must say! This may explain some of my late night (early morning GMT) posts.... I am sorry to hear that you have lost your father! I know how hard this must have been, but it is wonderful that you were able to send him off with your music, and I am sure that he treasured it, and I think this is something you will never forget! When my father passed, I was 5,000 miles away from him, and wasn't able to be with him -- something I regret till today, but such is life! We all do what we can. I looked at the Fiio E5 amp. And it is indeed dirt cheap! Is it worth buying? The built in battery is something that I am reluctant to trust. But, if you tell me that it has some staying power, and SQ is good, I will go ahead and get one. They are so cheap that if the battery goes down, I can just throw this away, and get another one, although I may have to carry an extra one as backup. ;D Frans, Thanks for explaining the output impedance device! Then, I can make a series of resistors to be connected in series with the output of the Neco Bossfet, and use them as filters. What wattage do you suggest I use? Do I need 0.5W or higher? Kind Regards, Israel
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elysion
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Post by elysion on May 15, 2011 4:41:47 GMT
Ian, I've found a portable headamp with digital connection to the iPod. Have a look here: www.rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=b&thread=6679the device is just a few resistors that can be switched in series with the headphone. The Neco's are very low Ohmic ... that's why HD650 sound good with them and K701 less. The Mossfet has enough output voltage to warrent the use of a 120 Ohm resistor so the K701 will sound better but the HD650 will sound darker again (the 'veil'). You can't use a 120 Ohm series resistor with portable devices or low output voltage amps. This will severly limit the maximum output swing and everything will sound undynamic and lifeless when you do. Frans, I'm very interested to get at least two 120 Ohm adapters for my K702's (and probably other AKG 'phones). Could you make some for me? If it's possible, I could pay you with PayPal. What about beasts like K401, K500 and K501? All three have 120 Ohms impedance. I guess they'd need a different type of adapter (and maybe the Mosfet isn't powerful enough).
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elysion
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Post by elysion on May 15, 2011 5:08:22 GMT
I've received my new Neco portable V2 this weekend. My first portable V2 was the first-ever V2 with linear pot and reduced gain (gain 3.5) and had the aluminum case without markings.
The new V2 is completely anodized and has nice markings on it. Overall look of the new design is much better. Apart from that, the only notable difference is the 500mA/h battery option.
I expect them to sound exactly the same. I'd be very suprised if there would be a difference in SQ.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on May 15, 2011 6:43:52 GMT
Israel do you need the digital out of an iPod for home or for on the go? For home look at Wadia, for on the go check out ALO Audio plus the link above.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 7:10:56 GMT
Israel do you need the digital out of an iPod for home or for on the go? For home look at Wadia, for on the go check out ALO Audio plus the link above. It's me Miguel!! I was looking for both. Thanks for that. And you Christian. I have wondered for some time whether it's a possibility. I've also wondered whether I could go from the dock out and simply ' join it to another USB that is going into a digital amp. I never said anything in case you guys thought me mad but I've just ordered a simple adapter to see if there is a digital output available. It makes sense to bypass the IPod dac if possible. Israel, the Fiio is extremely cheap and it does a very good job. It's slightly warm sounding and I just had one around the house. I tried it just to see if the IPod cleans up the bass with it to the ie8. It does and it's so small, you can just clip it to your shirt. It's quite respectable actually and does the job. As you say, very cheap. Again, a good compromise for mobile. Slighty less revealing of course, than a Neco but a good walking/mobile compromise that delivers a better sound than the headphone out. The battery lasts quite a long time and is rechargeable via a usb socket. (I use a Moterola phone charger actually) and because it doesn't cost much, your not so worried about it being nicked/damaged and is easily replaced (at the moment) if it dies. Fiio are up to E11 now so it may go out of production, but it's a fine little gadget and is more powerful than it looks. My posh mini is an IBasso. It does add warmth to the sound though. BTW Miguel - I think I've joined your club. I got an email from Colt calling me a 'pervert' for saying nice things about his spandex suit in his photo on another thread. ;D Some people just can't take a compliment eh? Regards Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 9:36:56 GMT
Since the output power isn't very high 0.5W will be more then sufficient. Higher then 1W is pointless
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 10:10:46 GMT
Christian, just to give you an idea.
I connected the K701 to the Neco at gain 3 with a 38 ohm adapter in place. There are some people who would say that you wouldn't hear differences. There is a very subtle effect on the very top edge of the K701 even by just raising the output impedance a touch. After that, the differences kind of 'slow' down. I tried it with Fran's impedance switcher and the first bit seems the strongest.
The only reason I have a 38 ohm adapter, which is a bit random is because Mike made me one to make the Panda 120 ohm output since he set it a bit lower. It even makes a slight difference on the Panda too.
However, the downside is that the volume obtainable from the amp is lowered so in my case, for lower output amps, it's a compromise. I think 120 output is ideal if you have a high powered amp like the Panda. You get a more 'comfortable' frequency response from the K701 especially. The 'euphoria' you get at first from the K701 and its revealing treble soon becomes tiring for me and the adapter just 'files' it down a bit and so makes the bass seem slightly stronger too!!
If the amp can't deliver enough power, it goes very flat sounding and you lose the dynamics altogether. Very boring sounding, so you need a powerful amp. The Presonus would go for 120 ohms perhaps just about!!
The Neco only JUST copes with 38 ohms on a K701. I tried it just now and it just about works. I could easily listen on full volume with the adapter in place. It's really on the verge of being too much for the amp and anything with huge dynamics could well become compressed.
IMO, portable amps just aren't suited to either Senn 650 or K701. You get sound from them and it does work, but it's not the best. That's why I opt for low impedance headphones for portables that are easy to drive. Unfortunately, as you know, the K701 is a pig to drive properly.
I use the ATH-A900 on the Neco - superb sound. Low impedance, very easy to drive and bass to die for. Funnily enough, I hated the A900 at first but it seemed to change massively after a couple of days. Now one of my favourite closed headphones since for me it's more balanced than a Beyer DT770 and works well on portable amps.
I would like a few adapters personally. The 38 ohm one is super and a good starting point for lower powered amps. It can improve the K701 in particular. For amps with more oomph behind them, I'd go 75 ohms and then a full 120 for the biggies.
I think those three values could be the most useful. so you are left with 0, 38, 75, 120. You could then use the amount of resistance that any amp is ok with and 'taylor' the sound part way at least towards the ideal 120 ohms.
38 is subtle. However, the K701 reveals it!! (Even on a Neco that's working hard to supply enough for even that low value.)
Here's the really daft thing. Again, I haven't said much because there are people who think it can't be heard - stick a 38 ohm adapter from the Neco to the ie8 ........
The sound is even more focussed!!! The ie8 absolutely snaps into real focus and becomes extremely realistic. Honestly, it is a stunning sound. The bass goes rich and deep and doesn't dominate in any way any longer but the treble really sharpens up.
The ie8 has become one of my favourite iems basically because it is SO responsive to amps and impedance changes. I couldn't believe it when I put the adapter on since I would have thought that they would have been designed to work with low output impedance amps. I'm not sure this is the case - they absolutely bloom if you put resistance in the way.
Of course all of this is due to Frans lending me his wonderful adapter. It really got me to focus on the subtleties of impedance output on amps. It's subtle, but it is definitely there and worth experimenting with since we all chuck headphones onto amps with incorrect matching and then tell stories about how bad the headphones are!! Matching is a real key to good headphone sound imo.
My jaw nearly hit the ground with the ie8. It was fat, big and bassy from headphone out on the ipod. (It settled with time) It was cleaner and the bass is more controlled from the dock out to an amp. However, stick 38 ohms in the way and the sound is kind of transformed to something quite sublime. It is fast becoming my favourite headphone which is crazy for an iem!!!!
Israel, now I've come out (so to speak) try it. 38 ohms or so from the Neco into the ie8. You wouldn't believe it!!
That's why I'm wondering what you do with the silver cable because if it gets any better than this, I'd say that the ie8 is worth every penny and more. You'd be hard pushed to find a sound like it. It even has a sense of image!!
I'm very grateful to Frans for the loan of his device. It was an education for me since it can't easily be heard just by stopping the music and changing an adapter. On his device, you just switch while you're listening and then it's obvious. Frans is quite right about memory and sound. We quickly adapt but this instant switch that he made pointed out to me what to listen for. I did a lot of listening via that device and also noted which headphones reacted more strongly to impedance changes - Beyer, Senn, AT big time. Grado less so.
However, I'm convinced that we need to look more closely at impedance matching when talking about headphones since it all becomes so random with other variables like different sounding amps and headphones. We also tend to try to match a headphone's shortcomings with a particular amp (which is probably its shortcoming too) and so we get a 'lumpy' FR. That leads us to conclusions that certain headphones are good for certain genres. What if the sound was flat so that every recording came out as intended? Then a headphone theoretically would be good for any genre!!
Impedance matching helps.
38 ohms is a good compromise.
An ideal adapter? ...... a full sized one like the technical guys make is great, but there are other possible configurations.
Full jack to full jack - of course. Mini jack to full jack - for portables to full sized headphones. Mini jack to mini jack (More difficult?) - for portables to iems!!!! (Seriously, it works)
All in three values. (I'd pay for a set!!!!!)
Ian
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