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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 23, 2011 0:52:27 GMT
Try putting one together for anything less (including all the trimmings) and your time ........ Not easy eh?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2011 6:19:18 GMT
Hi, Christian Just a short update on the AD843's that I had ordered: I received them a couple of days ago, but had to return them to the seller, for one of them was defective -- when installed in the Neco Bossfet V2.1 one of them gave me an offset voltage of 134 mV, which is excessive, and as a result I got nothing but hum when connected to headphones. Their offset voltage should be no more than 2-3 mV - typically 1 mV, which was the case with one of them. The seller was very good about sending me replacements, and I should have them within a few days. I did consult with Neco via email, and he couldn't think of a reason why the AD843's should not work on either the portable or the Bossfet, but couldn't guarantee about the noise level. I will wait and see (hear ) what result I get, and keep you posted. In the meantime, I would love to hear from Mike about this. Mike, I hope you are reading this. I value your opinion! So far, to my ear, the AD8610's that are now in both my Necos sound pretty darn good, and very neutral, while having a great transient response, and a tight, firm bass, so I don't really expect the AD843's to beat them, but as they say "curiosity killed the cat!", and I am curious to hear what they can bring. Hi, Christian Another update re AD843 opamps: While waiting for the replacements for the defective opamps from the eBay seller, I went ahead and ordered another pair from Digikey, and the two pairs arrived earlier today. But suspecting that the eBay replacements may have come from a bad batch, I first installed the pair that came from Digikey into my Neco Bossfet v 2.1 amp, and they immediately played beautifully, and noise-free, even with the amp metal box off! I measured the offset voltage with the volume pot set at zero gain, and got 4.1 mV on the left channel and 7.2 mV on the right channel -- well within the tolerances of no more than 20-30 mV that Neco indicated in his email to me. I then tired the eBay replacements, and just as I suspected, they didn't play at all, but rendered a steady hum, even after two re-insertions to make sure contacts were correctly seated. There was no offset voltage measurable, and I couldn't make these play, no matter what I did! Obviously this eBay seller, who seems to be a decent fellow, and willing to replace bad items, etc. has a stock of AD843 that may all be damaged. Of course, I am returning the pair of purported new AD843 opamps for a full refund. If any of you try to buy these at eBay, please avoid buying them from this seller to avoid the hassle that I have gone through. His eBay ID is ace-lectronics. This is not to say that his other stuff is bad, but, having had a good experience with Digikey, I will from now on try to purchase my stuff from them. The price for a pair of AD843's was reasonable: $22.61 USD delivered. Needless to say, the Digikey AD843 opamps are now back in the Neco Bossfet v2.1, and, so far, I like what I hear: With the amp box closed, they sound even better - the bandwidth is much wider, with deep full bass, lots of detail, similar to the BB OPA 637, but none of the laid back quality and no tendency to oscillate; they render excellent punch, articulation, transient response, typical of AD chips, and similar to the AD8610, but somewhat fatter sounding, with sparkling highs, and the same wide sound stage. I will wait a while to make up my mind as to whether I will keep the chips in the Neco Bossfet v2.1 amp after they are burnt in for a while, but so far, so good! I haven't tried them yet in the Neco dual mono portable v2, and am looking forward to that. It should be interesting, since the portable doesn't have the Mosfets which make the sound a little more tube-like, as on the Bossfet v2.1. Cheers! Israel
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2011 9:09:49 GMT
You're absolutely right Mike. I was just a bit surprised at the look of the innards when I opened it last night. Proves its hand built anyway.
Its certainly a solid job with excellent sound.
Syd
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Post by elysion on Apr 24, 2011 23:23:39 GMT
Hi, Christian Just a short update on the AD843's that I had ordered: I received them a couple of days ago, but had to return them to the seller, for one of them was defective -- when installed in the Neco Bossfet V2.1 one of them gave me an offset voltage of 134 mV, which is excessive, and as a result I got nothing but hum when connected to headphones. Their offset voltage should be no more than 2-3 mV - typically 1 mV, which was the case with one of them. The seller was very good about sending me replacements, and I should have them within a few days. I did consult with Neco via email, and he couldn't think of a reason why the AD843's should not work on either the portable or the Bossfet, but couldn't guarantee about the noise level. I will wait and see (hear ) what result I get, and keep you posted. In the meantime, I would love to hear from Mike about this. Mike, I hope you are reading this. I value your opinion! So far, to my ear, the AD8610's that are now in both my Necos sound pretty darn good, and very neutral, while having a great transient response, and a tight, firm bass, so I don't really expect the AD843's to beat them, but as they say "curiosity killed the cat!", and I am curious to hear what they can bring. Hi, Christian Another update re AD843 opamps: While waiting for the replacements for the defective opamps from the eBay seller, I went ahead and ordered another pair from Digikey, and the two pairs arrived earlier today. But suspecting that the eBay replacements may have come from a bad batch, I first installed the pair that came from Digikey into my Neco Bossfet v 2.1 amp, and they immediately played beautifully, and noise-free, even with the amp metal box off! I measured the offset voltage with the volume pot set at zero gain, and got 4.1 mV on the left channel and 7.2 mV on the right channel -- well within the tolerances of no more than 20-30 mV that Neco indicated in his email to me. I then tired the eBay replacements, and just as I suspected, they didn't play at all, but rendered a steady hum, even after two re-insertions to make sure contacts were correctly seated. There was no offset voltage measurable, and I couldn't make these play, no matter what I did! Obviously this eBay seller, who seems to be a decent fellow, and willing to replace bad items, etc. has a stock of AD843 that may all be damaged. Of course, I am returning the pair of purported new AD843 opamps for a full refund. If any of you try to buy these at eBay, please avoid buying them from this seller to avoid the hassle that I have gone through. His eBay ID is ace-lectronics. This is not to say that his other stuff is bad, but, having had a good experience with Digikey, I will from now on try to purchase my stuff from them. The price for a pair of AD843's was reasonable: $22.61 USD delivered. Needless to say, the Digikey AD843 opamps are now back in the Neco Bossfet v2.1, and, so far, I like what I hear: With the amp box closed, they sound even better - the bandwidth is much wider, with deep full bass, lots of detail, similar to the BB OPA 637, but none of the laid back quality and no tendency to oscillate; they render excellent punch, articulation, transient response, typical of AD chips, and similar to the AD8610, but somewhat fatter sounding, with sparkling highs, and the same wide sound stage. I will wait a while to make up my mind as to whether I will keep the chips in the Neco Bossfet v2.1 amp after they are burnt in for a while, but so far, so good! I haven't tried them yet in the Neco dual mono portable v2, and am looking forward to that. It should be interesting, since the portable doesn't have the Mosfets which make the sound a little more tube-like, as on the Bossfet v2.1. Cheers! Israel Hello Israel, many thanks for your effort testing these opamps. You are helping me (and Neco). Maybe my new Neco amps will be equipped with AD843's. I've discussed also another option with Neco: He told me that he could "boost" the bass somewhat below 250Hz. That would make the sound slightly warmer and would be beneficial for the AKG's. Maybe AD843+bass-boost is too much, but I'll let Neco decide if it sounds OK. I had also a look at the specifications of the AD843 and I found two interesting points: www.analog.com/en/other-products/militaryaerospace/ad843/products/product.htmlwww.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD843.pdf– The AD843 is available in different versions. If we talk about AD843, then would should know about what versions we are talking. The big question is if there are differences in sound quality between the versions. SOIC will sound probably not as good as the Mini-DIP & CerDIP versions since the package is smaller. The specs show also that there are different available temperature ranges and some versions that comply with military specs. I guess a high temp range / mil spec version could be interesting (AD843S??). See the link above (PDF) for more information. – Following is a quote of the AD843 spec PDF: I've glued heatsinks onto some chips recently (including some opamps) and it was quite successful. I can't give a final rating about the success with the heatsinks, but I'm almost sure that I have at least slight improvements in sound quality. I used Artic Silver Thermal Adhesive to glue the heatsinks. I'll keep you updated about how my new Neco's will be equipped (probably both with AD843) and how they sound in comparison to my existing Neco's. If you have a chance to try HD650's, then you should give them a go with the Neco MOSFET/BOSSFET and the AD8160. This combo works absolutely perfect with the AD8160's. It's not a perfect match for the AKG's, but it IS a perfect match for the HD650's. All the best, Christian
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2011 0:13:42 GMT
Hello Israel, many thanks for your effort testing these opamps. You are helping me (and Neco). Maybe my new Neco amps will be equipped with AD843's. I've discussed also another option with Neco: He told me that he could "boost" the bass somewhat below 250Hz. That would make the sound slightly warmer and would be beneficial for the AKG's. Maybe AD843+bass-boost is too much, but I'll let Neco decide if it sounds OK. I had also a look at the specifications of the AD843 and I found two interesting points: www.analog.com/en/other-products/militaryaerospace/ad843/products/product.htmlwww.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD843.pdf– The AD843 is available in different versions. If we talk about AD843, then would should know about what versions we are talking. The big question is if there are differences in sound quality between the versions. SOIC will sound probably not as good as the Mini-DIP & CerDIP versions since the package is smaller. The specs show also that there are different available temperature ranges and some versions that comply with military specs. I guess a high temp range / mil spec version could be interesting (AD843S??). See the link above (PDF) for more information. – Following is a quote of the AD843 spec PDF: I've glued heatsinks onto some chips recently (including some opamps) and it was quite successful. I can't give a final rating about the success with the heatsinks, but I'm almost sure that I have at least slight improvements in sound quality. I used Artic Silver Thermal Adhesive to glue the heatsinks. I'll keep you updated about how my new Neco's will be equipped (probably both with AD843) and how they sound in comparison to my existing Neco's. If you have a chance to try HD650's, then you should give them a go with the Neco MOSFET/BOSSFET and the AD8160. This combo works absolutely perfect with the AD8160's. It's not a perfect match for the AKG's, but it IS a perfect match for the HD650's. All the best, Christian Hi, Christian Neco told me in his last email that, based on what I reported to him, he is now definitely interested in the AD843 op amp, and will be ordering some for himself to try. Regarding the difference between the various versions of the AD843, I can't comment much, except that my first pair that are now in my Neco Bossfet v2.1 are the AD843J's, and I have another pair on order from Digi-Key, which is the AD843K's. From reading the data sheet on the AD843's the main difference in numbers is that the latter have lower offset voltage, and current, which theoretically may mean lower noise, and perhaps better performance, but IMHO, this difference may not be audible, and may be important for applications other than audio. I will let you know whether I can perceive any difference in sound, and perhaps ask Neco for his opinion. I will definitely try both my HD650 and HD600 Senns on the Bossfet, when I re-install the AD8610's in it. Right now I have the AD843's in, and am in the process of burning them in, so it may be a while. I may try the above headphones on the portable, which still has the AD8610's in, however. All the Best! Israel P.S. Update as of Apr. 25, 2011: Last night I tried the HD650 Senn with my Neco portable v2, which has the AD8610's in, and was absolutely amazed as to how good they sound together! The typical veil of the HD650's is completely gone, and, while the sound does not have as wide a stage as the AKG K701's, the presentation is very realistic, and musical! For the reasons I quoted above, I have not tried the HD650's with my Neco Bossfet, but speculate that because the portable Neco does not have the Mosfets that would make its sound smoother and more tube-like as in the Bossfet v2.1, the former may be better suited to the HD650 than the latter. I have in the past few months put together 3 different veil lifters, designed by Frans for the HD650, but now, with the Neco portable, I don't feel the need to use them, and now my HD650 will come back to being part of my usable headphone arsenal! Thank you for your suggestion! All the Best! Israel
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Post by elysion on Apr 25, 2011 18:36:39 GMT
Last night I tried the HD650 Senn with my Neco portable v2, which has the AD8610's in, and was absolutely amazed as to how good they sound together! The typical veil of the HD650's is completely gone, and, while the sound does not have as wide a stage as the AKG K701's, the presentation is very realistic, and musical! For the reasons I quoted above, I have not tried the HD650's with my Neco Bossfet, but speculate that because the portable Neco does not have the Mosfets that would make its sound smoother and more tube-like as in the Bossfet v2.1, the former may be better suited to the HD650 than the latter. I have in the past few months put together 3 different veil lifters, designed by Frans for the HD650, but now, with the Neco portable, I don't feel the need to use them, and now my HD650 will come back to being part of my usable headphone arsenal! Thank you for your suggestion! Your speculation is absolutely spot-on: The MOSFET/BOSSFET sounds smoother and much more tube-like. IMO it sounds as tube-like as no other solid-state amp I've heard up to now. HD650 and MOSFET/BOSSFET with AD8160 are perfect partners. I guess the HD600 will also sound great. At least the HD580 (old driver variant) sounds also very good. The HD650 (new driver variant) is better in every department though. I think AD843 and maybe the bass boost below 250Hz could make the MOSFET/BOSSFET better for the AKG's. All the best, Christian
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 25, 2011 22:46:23 GMT
AD-843................ my favourite chip. Christian, send me over one of those Neco amps you have and i will turbo charge the arse out of it with my favourite chip..... AD-843
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Apr 27, 2011 1:07:38 GMT
Neco told me in his last email that, based on what I reported to him, he is now definitely interested in the AD843 op amp, and will be ordering some for himself to try. Regarding the difference between the various versions of the AD843, I can't comment much, except that my first pair that are now in my Neco Bossfet v2.1 are the AD843J's, and I have another pair on order from Digi-Key, which is the AD843K's. From reading the data sheet on the AD843's the main difference in numbers is that the latter have lower offset voltage, and current, which theoretically may mean lower noise, and perhaps better performance, but IMHO, this difference may not be audible, and may be important for applications other than audio. I will let you know whether I can perceive any difference in sound, and perhaps ask Neco for his opinion. I will definitely try both my HD650 and HD600 Senns on the Bossfet, when I re-install the AD8610's in it. Right now I have the AD843's in, and am in the process of burning them in, so it may be a while. I may try the above headphones on the portable, which still has the AD8610's in, however. All the Best! Israel P.S. Update as of Apr. 25, 2011: Last night I tried the HD650 Senn with my Neco portable v2, which has the AD8610's in, and was absolutely amazed as to how good they sound together! The typical veil of the HD650's is completely gone, and, while the sound does not have as wide a stage as the AKG K701's, the presentation is very realistic, and musical! For the reasons I quoted above, I have not tried the HD650's with my Neco Bossfet, but speculate that because the portable Neco does not have the Mosfets that would make its sound smoother and more tube-like as in the Bossfet v2.1, the former may be better suited to the HD650 than the latter. I have in the past few months put together 3 different veil lifters, designed by Frans for the HD650, but now, with the Neco portable, I don't feel the need to use them, and now my HD650 will come back to being part of my usable headphone arsenal! Thank you for your suggestion! Glad you like the HD650+AD8160 combo. Neco told me that he will have a look at the data sheets and maybe he will order more than one variant. He mentioned also that he will have enough time over a long weekend to play around with the AD843. Looks like the BOSSFET V2.1 and the portable V2, which I'm ordering from him, will be already shipped with the AD843's. I'm VERY curious to compare the AD843 with the AD8160. AD-843................ my favourite chip. Christian, send me over one of those Neco amps you have and i will turbo charge the arse out of it with my favourite chip..... AD-843 Mike, your offer is VERY tempting! Since Neco also uses the AD843's for the new amps I've ordered (1xBOSSFET, 1xportable), it's probably best to wait for the amps and compare them with the older versions. Most likely, I will stay with the AD8160 in my older MOSFET V2 amps. They are a perfect match for the HD650's IMO. I was searching a perfect amp for the AKG 's and found one for the HD650's (of course with some help from rainman, which was the first that found those perfect partners). BTW: If I send a parcel to you, I'll include the best Swiss chocolate I've found so far. It's very costly stuff (around 10CHF for 100 grams), but it's worth the money. Nothing compared to usual Swiss chocolate.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 27, 2011 2:08:26 GMT
Some of the classy stuff shaped like a pair of tits? Or maybe a big phallic length? Yeh, I know my chocolate mate..... nothing quite like a tray of Ferrari Rancher, they are pure class and ambassadors all over the world serve them to their guests.....
No, seriously, thank you Christian.... I am quite partial to a quality chocolate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2011 1:49:23 GMT
Glad you like the HD650+AD8160 combo. Neco told me that he will have a look at the data sheets and maybe he will order more than one variant. He mentioned also that he will have enough time over a long weekend to play around with the AD843. Looks like the BOSSFET V2.1 and the portable V2, which I'm ordering from him, will be already shipped with the AD843's. I'm VERY curious to compare the AD843 with the AD8160. Christian, I just tried the HD650 Senns with my Bossfet v2.1, with the AD843NZ's installed, and like it even better than with the AD8610's. The sound is a lot fuller, without being muddy or dull; no typical HD650 veil, and the higher bandwidth is clearly audible in the form of extended highs and deeper bass. I like a lot what I hear with that combination, and the sound with the AKG K701's is also excellent, with a wider sound stage and less bass than with the HD650's, so I will probably be switching combinations for different sound sources. Ah!!! Decisions, Decisions........! On the other hand, I installed a pair of AD843JN's in the Neco dual mono portable v2, and got all sorts of clipping and distortion, especially audible in louder passages. I wrote Neco about it, and am very confident that he will come up with a solution. For now, the AD8610's will do quite well in the portable until I hear from him. Cheers! Israel
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2011 7:15:38 GMT
I mentioned it before..... the AD843 is NOT suited for single 9V battery portable C'moys (Neco portable is one of those) simply because the opamp should not be operated below 9V and these devices become unstable in this case. It simply cannot operate properly, perhaps only on a full charge while on the charger.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2011 12:30:39 GMT
I mentioned it before..... the AD843 is NOT suited for single 9V battery portable C'moys (Neco portable is one of those) simply because the opamp should not be operated below 9V and these devices become unstable in this case. It simply cannot operate properly, perhaps only on a full charge while on the charger. That's what I had with it. I liked the sound of the 843 a lot but it has a grittiness in it that is not very nice, probably due to the low power. Even worse when the battery gets a bit tired. Ian
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2011 17:19:39 GMT
I mentioned it before..... the AD843 is NOT suited for single 9V battery portable C'moys (Neco portable is one of those) simply because the opamp should not be operated below 9V and these devices become unstable in this case. It simply cannot operate properly, perhaps only on a full charge while on the charger. As always, Frans! Thank you for your input! I don't recall seeing your post about this. Must have missed it. I have a 3 year old Little Dot Mk1 head amp that has a 14.8 V Li-Ion battery pack, and I will try using the two AD843's in it with a Brown Dog dual adapter (if it will physically fit). It is not near as good an amp as the Neco portable, but the 843's may bring it back to life, or kill it! Cheers! Israel
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2011 17:32:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2011 0:01:36 GMT
the AD843 is NOT suited for single 9V battery portable C'moys (Neco portable is one of those) simply because the opamp should not be operated below 9V and these devices become unstable in this case. It simply cannot operate properly, perhaps only on a full charge while on the charger. I tried the AD843 with a fully charged Neco portable, plugged into the charger -- still clips and oscillates -- it requires a minimum of 10 volts, and the Neco portable (according to Neco) has a voltage regulator that will not allow the voltage to go much above 9V, even when plugged into a charger with an output of 15V DC. I installed the two AD843J's in my 3 year old Little Dot Mk1 amp, powered by a 14.8V Li-Ion battery pack. I used a low profile solder type Brown-Dog dual adapter -- the plug-in type will not physically fit into the case of the Little Dot amp -- too tall. These chips have given this old thing a new life. I get pretty low offset voltages -- 2mV left channel, and 4mV right channel. A good thing! They work quite well with the AKG K701's. The HD650 Senns sound a little veiled with them installed in the Little Dot amp , though with the Neco Bossfet v2.1 they sound excellent, even without the veil lifter.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2011 7:08:40 GMT
sounds to me as an output impedance thing with the HD650. The neco portable seems to be close to 0 Ohm. Bad match with AKG, good match with HD650 IF you prefer the sound sig of a K701 (on the 'colder/analytical' side so to speak). the little dot appears to have output resistors but the value will not be very high....
The HD650 gets more 'lush' on higher Ohmic amps. One mans lush is another mans veil. Ever wondered why some notice a veil and others say there is none with HD650 ? Some say the K701 has way too little bass and others say it's O.K. Some headphones seem to sound pretty much the same on different amps while other headphones are rather sensitive to certain amps with respect to the sound signature being changed.
Most say ... parts choice... matching.... it's actually quite simple 90% a matter of output resistance. Too bad manufacturers want to keep it (their 'sound ie output resistance') a trade secret and do not specify it, underestimate the significance or do not specify it because it might 'confuse' buyers thinking it can't be used on certain headphones. And personal taste comes into play.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2011 7:56:55 GMT
sounds to me as an output impedance thing with the HD650. The neco portable seems to be close to 0 Ohm. Bad match with AKG, good match with HD650 IF you prefer the sound sig of a K701 (on the 'colder/analytical' side so to speak). the little dot appears to have output resistors but the value will not be very high.... The HD650 gets more 'lush' on higher Ohmic amps. One mans lush is another mans veil. Ever wondered why some notice a veil and others say there is none with HD650 ? Some say the K701 has way too little bass and others say it's O.K. Some headphones seem to sound pretty much the same on different amps while other headphones are rather sensitive to certain amps with respect to the sound signature being changed. Most say ... parts choice... matching.... it's actually quite simple 90% a matter of output resistance. Too bad manufacturers want to keep it (their 'sound ie output resistance') a trade secret and do not specify it, underestimate the significance or do not specify it because it might 'confuse' buyers thinking it can't be used on certain headphones. And personal taste comes into play. Some very intriguing thoughts, Frans! Can you suggest an easy way of uncovering these well kept manufacturers' secrets, i.e. measuring the output resistance and modifying the output by changing, or adding/removing resistors? I recall doing this with excellent results, when I made several of your suggested modifications on my Indeed G2 hybrid amp. Coming to think of it, I have yet to do a couple more: the heater mod, and moving the voltage regulators to the wonderful aluminum bottom plate that Mick so generously sent me. I had to put these off, unfortunately, being side-tracked by some other events that had demanded my attention , and taken me away from the project, but I am looking forward to resuming my tinkering with that as well soon. In the meantime, I have been using the superb, almost tube-like Neco Bossfet v2.1, which makes most of my headphones sound much much better (more transparent, neutral, etc.), and now, with the AD843 op amps, even more so, but with heftier bass!
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2011 8:47:59 GMT
unfortunately you cannot simply increase or decrease output resistances of certain designs. In some cases they are the value they are because of the design or output voltage/current capabilities.
changing output resistors to bigger values may severly limit the output power/dynamic range and decreasing the value may possibly harm some low Ohmic headphones IF the amplifier section is capable of putting out higher voltages.
so the idea is good (having 3 or 4 impedances to choose from) but implementation in existing amps MIGHT be a bit problematic in some cases.
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Post by greenstiles on May 3, 2011 15:47:44 GMT
Hi (new here)I posted on the mofset (now sold) thread before that i was going to get an 18v portable pro.......now arrived so excited i put my directional cable round the wrong way ! initial impressions very good, couldn't wait for the new printed facia so Neco built this a few days ago for me . As you can see i will be using it with full size CD as well as i-pod.... i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh208/greenstiles/neco18v001.jpg
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2011 16:41:09 GMT
Israel,
if you can be bothered, opa227 works well in the Neco.
In comparison to the ad op amp that it comes with, the 227 adds a little warmth and a very slightly more substantial bass weight which goes well with the K701.
In fact, I have received a third amp from Neco and at first I found the standard op amp absolutely fine. After a while, I felt that it was a tad aggressive so I swapped out the apa227 from my other Neco into the new one and the depth and more 'relaxed' sound was restored.
IMO, the op227 is good with the Neco and also works well with the Senn HD650 as well. It seems to bring out the Senn's strengths moreso than try to compensate for it's treble like the standard op amp does.
The output impedance is a bit too low for the AKG so that it has a tendency to be a bit too strident on it imo. The 227 seems to very slightly help that while also enhancing the Senns strengths so you get a good compromise all round.
Actually, I love the HD25 II with opa 227 on the Neco. Really punchy and deep sounding.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 5:19:18 GMT
Israel, if you can be bothered, opa227 works well in the Neco. In comparison to the ad op amp that it comes with, the 227 adds a little warmth and a very slightly more substantial bass weight which goes well with the K701. In fact, I have received a third amp from Neco and at first I found the standard op amp absolutely fine. After a while, I felt that it was a tad aggressive so I swapped out the apa227 from my other Neco into the new one and the depth and more 'relaxed' sound was restored. IMO, the op227 is good with the Neco and also works well with the Senn HD650 as well. It seems to bring out the Senn's strengths moreso than try to compensate for it's treble like the standard op amp does. The output impedance is a bit too low for the AKG so that it has a tendency to be a bit too strident on it imo. The 227 seems to very slightly help that while also enhancing the Senns strengths so you get a good compromise all round. Actually, I love the HD25 II with opa 227 on the Neco. Really punchy and deep sounding. Ian Thanks for the suggestion, Ian! I will order a couple of opa227's and give them a try on my Neco portable. On my Neco Bossfet v2.1 with its higher voltage and gain, the AD843's sound superb, however! After a period of burning-in for about 50 or so hours, the highs smoothed out just enough, and the bass is now very well extended without being muddy. The HD650's sound wonderful on them, especially with digitally recorded CD's. The digitally remastered CD's with their tendency for exaggerated high end benefit from the smoothing out of the HD650's as well. My, by now, well broken-in AKG K701's on the other hand, as much as I like their transparency and wider sound stage, tend to be merciless, and tend to show every little flaw in the recording, such as poor mike placement, poor hall acoustics, as well as flaws in the playing of the performers. But, when everything is right -- a rare occurrence -- they can be very satisfying to listen to -- perfect for hearing all the inner voices, etc. As you may recall, for a while I had the OPA627's in the Neco Bossfet v2.1, and was reasonably happy with them with the AKG K701's, most probably because their typical Burr Brown laid back characteristics combined well with the more open high end of the K701's. But, after a while, as much as I wanted to like them, I found myself missing the satisfying punch and transient response of the AD8610's, so I went back to them until I discovered the AD843's. I guess, the search for the ideal (nonexistent ) op amp/headphone combination continues!..... I have a pair of Senn HD25 II's, which I have re-cabled with the Cardas cable, and also like them very much. Coupled with the Neco portable and the AD8610's to my ears, they sound very good. I take them along when I go on a trip. Despite the fact that they are closed style, they are not for use in noisy environments, where people tend to yell into their mobile phones, etc. In circumstances like them, I tend to use my custom molded Etymotic ER4 in-the-ear phones with their inadequate bass reproduction. Sometime ago, I had a pair of UE Tripple-Fi 10's, which had a pretty good bass response until they were ruined by a less than skilled outfit in an attempt to make custom ear molds for them, so that was a total loss of close to $500.00 USD! Ouch! The name of the outfit is ' Fisher Hearing Technologies Inc.' in Lake Mary, Florida, USA. They totally destroyed the high frequency driver on these phones, and after three attempts to fix them, I gave up on them, realizing that despite their noble intentions they were simply incompetent! Avoid them like the plague! On another thread, I read your comments about the Senn IE8, and am wondering about them. When searching, I found two versions of them: one is the "Sennheiser IE 8 Premium Audiophile In-Ear Noise Isolating Headphones", and the other is the "Sennheiser IE 8i Ear Canal Headset". Are they sonically different from each other, and if yes, which ones do you own, or prefer? All the Best! Israel
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 6:57:37 GMT
Hi Israel,
I loved the 843 in the Neco but there was a problem in the treble which was a bit gritty. It was basically underpowered as Frans pointed out. I could actually hear it so that was reassuring!!
So I turned to the opa227 for the portable which was a good compromise. It wasn't until I got a new Neco that I realised what this opamp was doing and eventually popped the 227 out of the old one and put it into the new and that lovely rounded sound returned. (Thank goodness)
I have two versions of the Klipsch earbuds X10 and X8 (I think) The orange one and the Black one. Very good and I have used them for quite a while. Different fit and for me the cheaper black one (x8?) fits me better than the expensive one. However, the expensive one is more extended.
I have been very curious about the ie8 for some time and was put off by all the wierd comments I read about them. Since I'm not exactly poor (!!) I decided to just get it and try it out. It's the normal version, not the i version.
I got a real shock!! The quality is top notch. What I love about these buds is that they aren't shrill and toppy and have an enormous bass that is very controllable. (contrary to what many say)
I think the key is the fit. Although they are a closed iem, if you fit them gently and don't stuff them (or try to) deep into your ears, they are absolutely fine. To me, they're kind of like semi-closed which makes them extremely comfortable. They don't push out on the inside of your ears like so many closed iem's and the seal guarantees a good bass response. Plus the adjuster if it's not enough for you.
The other thing is that it actually tries to create a soundstage!! Probably because it's not deep in the ear. In fact, you can't push them deep and I don't think Sennheiser mean them to be.
It's really easy to forget that these are iem's and they are SO like full sized headphones, they are ideal for moving around with quality sound going on in your head!!
Even better with the Neco. They have become my favourite iem big time and kind of took the place of the Klipsch top end buds which in comparison, seem a little harsh in the treble region.
The type of sound I prefer Israel, is one with strongish bass. However, I like the bass to be kind of 'separated' from the rest of the spectrum so I need a very 'fast'headphone where the bass hits and then dies very quickly to let the rest through. This is why I've stuck with the Senn 600/650's for so long. Get the amp right and they are extremely balanced imo.
I don't need a glaring top end in spite of my age. I sometimes wonder whether a strong top end is kind of mistaken for extension/clarity when in fact, the headphone is just weighted up top instead of (Mostly the norm) down to the bass!!
I love the K701, but struggle with its balance continually. It seems so hit and miss on different recordings. It's probably also because I work in a studio with Beyer DT150's that are really well driven and they give out some serious bass which makes the K701 sound anaemic by comparison.
If money is no option, the ie8 is a lovely iem. It's expensive but really well balanced for what I listen to. Israel, I'll do some more classical music listening on them just to check the bass response. I know that if you have a 'fortissimo' bass level, double basses can become over the top. I'll have a good listen with them and get back. I find trumpets on K701 positively ear splitting when the brass take off so I'm afraid top focussed headphones are not really for me. (I think!!)
I'll give the ie8 a more 'classical' listen. Do you listen to one type more than another? (I'm wondering about Baroque music therefore - the harpsichord sound.... not forgetting low organ notes!!)
If you get an ie8 - be very careful about copies. They're rife!!!
Regards
Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 16:09:05 GMT
Hi, Ian Thanks for your informative reply! If you can see it in your future, I think the Neco Bossfet v2.1, or later, is and incredible amp, and the AD843's on it simply shine, especially if the gain is set at about 11! I also appreciate your very informative reply about the Senn IE8! I am more and more intrigued about them, the more I read, and since I too am not exactly poor , I can predict that, provided the SQ is suitable to my ears, they could become a part of my headphone arsenal as well. Too bad that one can not try them before buying, but as I already have thrown away $500 USD on an unsuccessful experience, which didn't exactly leave me poor ;D, am more and more tempted to try those IE8's! In my last post I mentioned the Etymotic ER4's that, although lacking in bass, have a very good middle and high response, which to my ears, is not excessive or toppy, as you would put it . If the IE8's have that, along with the bass that you describe, I may just go ahead and get a pair . Amazon has them listed at under $400.00 USD with free second day air shipping. Does that sound reasonable to you, or do you know of a better source? I listen mostly to classical music, including baroque, symphonic (including lots of Mahler), opera, chamber music, etc. In addition to music of the baroque, classical, and romantic period, I do listen to some contemporary, and 20th century music -- I am a sworn Stravinsky fan, and had the pleasure and honor of playing under his baton a few years back! I also like jazz, and from time to time, I indulge in listening to big band recordings as well. With rock music, I am extremely selective, and like the classic rock stuff. I tend to listen to it, along with jazz on my rather elaborate car stereo when I am driving those longer distance trips on boring interstate highways. No headphones there!!! So, this may give you somewhat of an idea about the listening habits of this old fellow musician, who, though retired, still has his wits and hearing pretty much intact (I always tried to avoid sitting in front of the trumpets if I could help it! ;D .) I look forward to hearing some more about your most recent impressions of the IE8's with some big symphonic recordings, like Mahler #2. I must have at least 7 or 8 different performances of this one on CD, with my favorite so far, musically speaking, being the Mehta/Vienna Philharmonic on Decca! The first movement of this symphony, and, of course the Resurrection 'Gates of Heaven' finale with its bigger than life dynamic span, would be a good test for the capabilities of the IE8's, though, sonically (not necessarily musically), IMHO, the Solti/Chicago version with its incredible brass section almost equals the Mehta version. The Chicago brass could very well be the best on the planet, and much of the praise goes to them! All the Best! Israel
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 20:03:10 GMT
Hi Israel, I never realised that your musical tastes were that wide!! Very similar to my own so I'll give the ie8 a listen on large orchestral works. I tend not to listen to orchestral on iem's because I need to hear 'space' in them, but if an iem is going to do that, the ie8 could. I am well aware that you like the K701 though Israel and the ie8 has a very different sound sig. It's much more bass focussed and has a very weighty presentation. I imagine timps will have an enormous presence. It's more similar to an HD650 in presentation so if you're not keen on that, then they wouldn't be for you. They have a large sound for an iem and you really start to forget what silly little things they are when you hear them. They sound far larger than they are. It's very odd ion that way. However, I really don't want to steer you into a headphone that you don't like; especially in this price range. This is a good price in the UK and they're not fakes: www.hughesdirect.co.uk/accessories/headphones-and-portable-speak/sen-ie8/productI wonder whether you can have the VAT taken off and have them sent to you in order to make them cheaper for you? Regards Ian
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 20:49:18 GMT
Hi Israel, I never realised that your musical tastes were that wide!! Very similar to my own so I'll give the ie8 a listen on large orchestral works. I tend not to listen to orchestral on iem's because I need to hear 'space' in them, but if an iem is going to do that, the ie8 could. I am well aware that you like the K701 though Israel and the ie8 has a very different sound sig. It's much more bass focussed and has a very weighty presentation. I imagine timps will have an enormous presence. It's more similar to an HD650 in presentation so if you're not keen on that, then they wouldn't be for you. They have a large sound for an iem and you really start to forget what silly little things they are when you hear them. They sound far larger than they are. It's very odd ion that way. However, I really don't want to steer you into a headphone that you don't like; especially in this price range. This is a good price in the UK and they're not fakes: www.hughesdirect.co.uk/accessories/headphones-and-portable-speak/sen-ie8/productI wonder whether you can have the VAT taken off and have them sent to you in order to make them cheaper for you? Regards Ian Hi again, Ian Thanks for the further input on the IE8's. I do like my HD650's now very much! They sport the Cardas cable and plug, which I installed shortly after I got them, and by now are well broken in. To my ears, they do now have a pretty good high end, especially after the Cardas cable upgrade, so if the IE8's sound similar, I may be willing to pull the trigger on them. I logged onto the link you sent me, and found out that HugesDirect will not sell outside UK , but even at the price that includes VAT, they are still less expensive than what I can find in US or (God forbid!!!) eBay . By today's exchange rate, 172.99 GBP converts to 282.96 USD, which is well below the Amazon price. I very much appreciate your offering to purchase them for me and send them to me, so if and when I decide, perhaps, if it isn't too much trouble, you would be willing to ask them to waive the VAT, since they will be shipped outside the UK. I don't know whether they would be willing to be bothered with this, but it may be worth asking, provided that this will not be an imposition on you. I have no idea what the VAT percentage is, but either way, this looks like a very attractive price to me. I will wait a little while to get some more input from you before I decide to buy those, but I have the feeling that if they are anything like the HD650's that I have, and recently grown to love, especially with the Neco amps and with the Cardas upgrade, I will decide to get them with your help! Thank you so much again for all the information and the offer to buy and forward them to me. When the time comes, we can exchange PM's, and I can send you the total, incl. shipping etc. instantly via PayPal or via whichever way you will prefer. Best Regards, Israel
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