Storage Options

[jkeny]

I got an iTouch as a birthday present recently which was my suggestion as I have the intention of buying a Squeezebox touch when they are released in 2010 probably. Anyway, too late for Christmas. So I'm under pressure to choose my Christmas present

I figured that I would need a storage solution to plug into the SB Touch. I have a USB external 500GB disk (it's a Sata disk internally) & I wanted to maybe add some RAID 5 option to protect my rips past & future.

Any suggestions in the reasonable price range of about 200euro ($300)? I will probably have my SB Touch in the living room & so any plug in storage will need to be living room friendly!

[Deleted]

John
If the new one is anything like the original SB, you are going to have to use your mod skills to the fullest to even make it sound half reasonable.
The original needed lots of work in the PSU area , for example. The bigger Transporter sounded quite a bit better, but still quite mediocre compared to a Marantz SA11 or modded X-DAC V3. There is very little 3D presentation with either, in comparison to a good DAC, with the soundstage for the most part mainly between, and a little in front of the speakers, even with the Transporter.
Alex.
P.S.
Sorry Sol ! I know you love what you have.

[jkeny]

Ah yes, Alex, I know I'll be involved in modding - the PS & clocks anyway but John Swenson gives it a thumbs up in the SPDIF department & I'll be running the SPDIF into a reclocked Sabre - so should help!

Anyway, I'll wait until I hear reports from the field

[Deleted]

John
Another weak part in the original SB was the inverter,and the noise it generated.
A friend and I had a play with 2 of his SBs.
Alex

[jkeny]

Did you manage to solve the inverter noise? This supplies the PS to the screen, I think? from what I can gather, but I may be wrong, the SB Touch screen blanks when not in use & becomes active again when a person approaches it - so there may be a noise reduction?

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2009 9:55:24 GMT jkeny said:

Did you manage to solve the inverter noise? This supplies the PS to the screen, I think? from what I can gather, but I may be wrong, the SB Touch screen blanks when not in use & becomes active again when a person approaches it - so there may be a noise reduction?

John
I could be very wrong, because it was a few years ago, but I think the inverter was still on.I would have to check with my friend that owned them. I remember that we also tried strapping earth from one side of the PCB to the other. The PCB track layout didn't seem the best.
Alex

[jkeny]

Alex,
I would be interested in any hardware details you might be able to dig up on the older SBs if you get a chance!

[jkeny]

As I was under pressure from family to decide what I wanted for Christmas, I decided to go with a Squeezebox Receiver (a Duet without the controller - I have an iTouch for this). This has some advantages - no display, so no polluting PS from it; a nice big box, so lots of room for mods.

And here's the mods I plan:
- disable WiFi & DAC
- tap I2S to Sabre DAC
- run it on batteries
- possibly change the clock responsible for audio

[Will]

Dec 11, 2009 10:38:23 GMT jkeny said:

As I was under pressure from family to decide what I wanted for Christmas, I decided to go with a Squeezebox Receiver (a Duet without the controller - I have an iTouch for this). This has some advantages - no display, so no polluting PS from it; a nice big box, so lots of room for mods.

And here's the mods I plan:
- disable WiFi & DAC
- tap I2S to Sabre DAC
- run it on batteries
- possibly change the clock responsible for audio

I love this

You can tell a audio DIY'er miles away. Before we even have the kit, we already have plans laid out on how we will make it better/do exactly what we want!

I'm exactly the same now. I wasn't, though, before I came here and got 'infected' ;D

[jkeny]

I know, this DIY audio is a great hobby - I never buy any audio product for use as is, it's always with DIY in mind. This will be like a Christmas from my childhood where, within a day or two, I had taken apart or modified my presents. Now I'll have my own kids saying "has he taken it apart already" ;D

[rowuk]

Raid5 is at least 3 disks, which if you buy fast ones, eat your budget up with no room left for electronics.

My suggestion is a PC with gigabit ethernet, RAID5 either on board, or a PCI card, and at least 3 discs. The software to make it go is free, fast and easy:

www.freenas.org/

If we can believe SandyK, 3 solid state HDs should be really AWESOME in RAID0. That works with this software too. Gigabit ethernet is the fastest external interface on a PC, better than double USB and 25% faster than Firewire 800.

[derekrumble]

I am now using a USB 1tB drive for my growing music library - this is fast becoming my main music source now that I have my Streamium streamer. The 1 tB disc holds CD rips and down-conversions (the Streamium needs 24/48 or less) from my hi-res downloads (Linn etc). I keep at least two copies of my hi-res downloads on different discs in case of disaster. But apart from that I just keep my fingers crossed - the original Cds are my backups. Tedious to re-load on to a new hard disc if the current one fails - but at least the music is still there. I use the 'fingers crossed' technique . ;-)

[jkeny]

Thanks guys, for all the suggestions - I'm thinking along the lines of a Sheeva Plug dev kit computer & Raid but this will have to wait for a while!

These look like a glorified power adaptor & are low current usage based on Arm processor so meant to be left on all the time. It sports one USB2 port, one Gigabit ethernet port & one SD Card slot running Linux - not bad for 100 quid!

www.cyrius.com/debian/kirkwood/sheevaplug/gallery.html

[FauDrei]

I keep "backup" of my music library on DVDs. 10-12 music CDs wavpacked (or flac-ed) on 1 DVD with all the tagging, album art, replay gain...

[Deleted]

Valter
I found music playback quality from DVD-R markedly worse than from CD. TG ripped me some CDs to a DVD-R and I put them on my HDD. The resulting playback was way below the quality of a couple of the CDs after I purchased them.
However, after I 3M taped the HDD, and ripped the files directly to a new DVD folder, the result when burned to 24K Gold DVD was much better than previously. The trouble is the expense of those 24K Gold DVD-Rs
Alex

[FauDrei]

Alex,

I use DVD's only for archiving. My library is HDD based.

BTW, DVD+R is, technologically, superior to DVD-R, so you might look into that.

Regarding rips and better rips... still think... no, still certain there is something really odd going on with music playback on your PCs. But I'm tired, have no will nor energy to debate with Audiophile Church Curia. ;D

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2009 21:18:06 GMT FauDrei said:

Alex,

I use DVD's only for archiving. My library is HDD based.

BTW, DVD+R is, technologically, superior to DVD-R, so you might look into that.

Regarding rips and better rips... still think... no, still certain there is something really odd going on with music playback on your PCs. But I'm tired, have no will nor energy to debate with Audiophile Church Curia. ;D

Valter
Another 2 possibilities.
Either your gear is nowhere near as good as you think it is, or you are directly related to a friend of mine in Sydney's north .
Remember, it's not just my PC. It's Jeff C.,Gavin,Miguel,Nick,Leo, Will, Syd, Dave ,John Kenny, Tony G. and others,(all are RG members)JC has also reported hearing subtle differences using a USB pen in the Graham Slee forum. And including Geoff C from NYC, Claudius from Germany, Claudius's Recording Engineer friend, and last but not least, Peter St., who is the lead developer of the XXHE playback software.(www.phasure.com) Add to that several DIYAudio members from Sydney who have heard the differences directly from my PC.(Alfred R.,David M.,Geoff B.) Of course if you are using a Mac with umpteen fans whirring around, then you are far less likely to hear the differences.
Alex

[FauDrei]

Ya, I asked for it...

ThinkPad T61p -> Monitor 01 USD -> DacMagic -> Green Solo -> W1000

or

ThinkPad X301 -> hiFace BNC -> Reference One -> Roc -> HE-5 (balanced)

As you can see, computers are not even transports in my setups - they are mere storage and "music feeders" to external asynchronous USB transports. If I add that I've configured foobar2000 as above normal priority process which caches in RAM every piece of music smaller than 64 Mb and uses bit-perfect kernel streaming, I think I've minimized the possibilities of computer noises, vibrations, heat, latencies, direct sound kmixer modifications, fragmentations, swapping... and other computer activities interfering with my headphone enjoyment.

So, what do you reckon? My setup good enough? Properly set up? ...or I need a dozen meters of that 3M tape to wrap it up?

[Deleted]

So, what do you reckon? My setup good enough? Properly set up? ...or I need a dozen meters of that 3M tape to wrap it up?

they are mere storage and "music feeders"

Valter
Rubbish ! HDDs and their PSUs,as well as vibration are the main reasons for SQ degradation.Try using an SSD at 1/10 approx. the current draw, and no moving parts!
You are still sticking with laptops and USB Have you also tried running from internal battery ? You are still extracting the music from the internal HDD. You could use some 3M tape on it and on your optical drive.
I still believe that USB is likely to be the main problem, but you seem to continue to prefer it over SPDIF, firewire etc. SPDIF from a decent internal soundcard is likely to be considerably better, assuming that the Thinkpads are capable of using one. My recent experience with playback from a laptop and USB DAC was absolutely underwhelming, although there was nothing wrong with the Benchmark USB DAC when used with a normal P.C.
Alex

[FauDrei]

Are you intentionally refusing to understand the rough basic computer architecture and principles?

That HDDs and PSUs and vibration have nothing to do with the accuracy of USB data transfer? USB (2.0) has package acknowledgments and resends and enough speed for 10-20 simultaneous 32 bit 96 kHz stereo channels.

That T61p has 320 GB HDD and X301 has 128 GB SSD and they "sound" the same? In my setups. As they should.

That ThinkPad's battery and AC adaptor also "sound" the same? Again in my setup.

That asynchronous USB to SPDIF converter like Monitor or hiFace will beat most internal audio card's SPDIF outputs? Including direct USB to Benchmark's mediocre USB input. From PC or from laptop.

Why having external audio device is better than internal one?

Or that, until it is played, computer based music is just a data file like any other excel spreadsheet on your computer?

And that if you have copies of the same spreadsheet, there can not be "more air and details" between cells of one copy compared to the cells of other copy? It is more likely that you have issues with your "display".

.
.
.

Sisyphean challenge

[Deleted]

Valter
I am referring to the fact that the additive effects of Jitter makes it's way through the computer virtually unchecked, and is then heard at the DAC. It can even be made worse when using EAC in secure mode, where the same sections are often read at speeds as low as 1/10th speed ,over and over again.It is better to have a smooth data transfer at a relatively high speed than a jerky transfer of data to the HDD, and to hell with the occasional check sum error in comparison to that stored at an external server. Not that I would ever expect you to believe that ! This Jitter problem is a possibility that you refuse to achknowledge, despite the numerous reports to the contrary by other members, about being able to hear differences between .wav files before and after anti vibration techniques. They are hearing the differences between .wav files with very different amounts of Jitter.
Jitter is something that the makers of the more upmarket DACs take very seriously, even to a few claiming that they can reduce,or in a couple of extreme cases, remove the effects of Jitter on the incoming stream.
A claim which seems to be quite dubious, and disputed by very knowledgeable people such as "Wavelength"
It is regularly demonstrated that the lower the Jitter that a DAC has, the better it sounds.
Alex

[FauDrei]

Agreed - lower the jitter, better it sounds.

Also agreed - jitter can be minimized and controlled, but not completely eliminated.

But what we do not agree is:

Jitter matters in two phases: when recording and when playing back.

There's nothing we can do about recorded jitter. It is stored on our CD's and wav's and flacs and mp3s... But it is usually minimal and well controlled AND DOES NOT CHANGE after media is recorded.

Which leaves us with playback jitter... which happens, as the name says - during playback. It is introduced by our playback setup, not by the storage (in our case read: ripped music data).

The whole idea of digital music is - it will always HAVE THEORETICAL POSSIBILITY to sound the same. Unlike analog music which, no matter how great it can be, slowly but surely deteriorates with it's storage media. How "identical" will reproductions of the same digital music be - depends (again) on our playback setup capabilities (noise, distortions, vibrations, temperature... and of course - jitter).

So if same data on the same system sound different - there must be a playback problem.

[Deleted]

There's nothing we can do about recorded jitter. It is stored on our CD's and wav's and flacs and mp3s... But it is usually minimal and well controlled AND DOES NOT CHANGE after media is recorded.

Why then can a CD after being ripped and then burned to a quality CD-R , especially the 24K Gold types, sound better than the original CD stamped out from a Master which will slowly deteriorate, dependending on the number of copies made from it.?
Are you actually achknowledging that Jitter is present on a recorded CD, despite just being Digital 1s and 0s,
and that ripping the binary bits to your HDD leaves the Jitter intact ? Why should that be so if you are only copying the binary bits, and internal PC housekeeping sets the timing of the played back stream from the HDD ?

So if same data on the same system sound different - there must be a playback problem

But it isn't exactly the same data. It may have exactly the same number of 1s and 0s, but it's timing will vary by small amounts, dependent on the amount of Jitter present. You can even try "squaring up " the waveforms using logic gates, but even the hysterisis (switching) point of gates made by different manufacturers can be quite different.That is also why different SPDIF and Optical inputs can sound different too.
Once again , you are completely discounting the listening experiences of many members, many of whom have considerably higher quality playback systems than you have.
Alex

P.S.
It's a shame that we are on different continents, because it is so easy to demonstrate the large differences involved. It was even more obvious again on my friend's system using Infinity speakers with Raal tweeters.
I would be very surprised if my friend Greg ,who has been at loggerheads with me over this issue, was unable to hear the large gap in quality between the the CD playback from the Oppo and Marantz SA11when used as transports into the X-DAC V3. I am damn sure that Greg heard the HUGE difference between playback from the laptop, and playback from the CD transports. I think that he was rather surprised that playback from the laptop into the Benchmark USB DAC from the USB pen, was so poor in comparison with that from the CD players when playing the files ripped from the same32GB Corsair Voyager GT USB 2.0 pen.
Alex
PPS.
The next day, our host sent me the following :
"For the next session I'll make sure that we have a dedicated PC with dual core intel processor and an Asus SC."

[andy]

I use a Drobo at work, bloody briliant!
You can use it through USB or over LAN, this may work better with the Squeezebox idea?
You buy the Drobo and put drives into it as yuo can afford it, the bigger the drives the more storage you get and it is fully redundant.
I have had one drive fail on me (it was an old one and i had dropped it a few times) the Drobo told me it had failed, i replaced it and lost nothing at all!
www.drobo.com

[FauDrei]

Are you actually achknowledging that Jitter is present on a recorded CD, despite just being Digital 1s and 0s,
and that ripping the binary bits to your HDD leaves the Jitter intact ? Why should that be so if you are only copying the binary bits, and internal PC housekeeping sets the timing of the played back stream from the HDD ?

Yes. Jitter happens in time domain. The inaccuracy of sampling intervals (clock inaccuracy) during recording will introduce jitter which will be present on final recording. Ripping is just copying of that final recording from one media (CD) to other (HDD, SSD, USB...). In informatics if you copy data - you always make perfect copies. If this would not be so - there would be no point in digitizing our information of any kind.

So you have the SAME final recording on your HDD, SSD, USB stick. No jitter, noise, whatever... added or subtracted during ripping.

Changes (jitter?) that you all hear MUST happen when you send this ripped data through your SW/HW chain to be played back. Hear differently same data? You have a SW/HW problem.

But it isn't exactly the same data. It may have exactly the same number of 1s and 0s, but it's timing will vary by small amounts, dependent on the amount of Jitter present.

Utter BS.

Timing that "varies by small amounts" as you call jitter, does not depend of 1s and 0s on the recording - they are always the same there. Those "time variations" are introduced by your playback gear (SW and HW, remember?).

You can even try "squaring up " the waveforms using logic gates, but even the hysterisis (switching) point of gates made by different manufacturers can be quite different.That is also why different SPDIF and Optical inputs can sound different too.

Yes, different SPDIF and optical implementations sound different. That is why I am always seeking better interfaces for transferring my music to DAC chips.

Monitor and hiFace are quite good at that, for the time being.

Once again , you are completely discounting the listening experiences of many members, many of whom have considerably higher quality playback systems than you have.

I am not discounting anything. I'm, or better, I was trying to pinpoint the reason for this, but you could not be bothered to try the tests and procedures I suggested.

I doubt that "many members" have higher quality playback system than me. You included.

And it really is a pity we do not live closer. Our dissagrement would be much easier to address in person and with access to each's other gear.