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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 13:00:58 GMT
Valter Back at you. That is utter BS, and now confirmed by many RG members and others. You obviously think that I imagine hearing these things,just as the other members are with uploaded files, and their own modifications using the 3M tape, as several have now also done. I put it to you that my credibility after >114 SC HA s with JLH constructed to my mods, as well as several Class A HAs made to my design ,have demonstrated that other people have many times over verified the changes I have made and confirmed them. The latest confirmation was received from Will today : "By the way, what a difference that +/- 20V makes to the AK Class A!!! Absolutely stunning, 3d sound on good recordings! " The previously mentioned incremental modifications were usually much smaller subjective differences than I am hearing between earlier and much later rips after anti vibration measures.I didn't get these amplifiers to the much higher performance they now are, by imagining the changes. Neither did I need to do DBT after each modification I made. Alex P.S. It must have really pissed you off then, to see reports that some people are capable of hearing differences in CD rips after surface treatment of the CD using, Cleaning, demagnetising, and Ion treatments . They sounded WORSE after the treatment. Yes, the check sums were still identical, and all 3 long distance participants (JeffC included) reported exactly the same results, despite expecting the treated CDs to sound better !  |
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Dec 23, 2009 14:18:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 20:41:39 GMT
Another quick stir, from the "How CD and DVD Players Work" thread. Alex Adding It All Up If we add up everything we've learned in the four lessons above, it suddenly becomes clear that all kinds of CD tweaks can and indeed should be effective in making a sonic difference. Those who deride CD tweaks as snake oil are actually themselves the peddlers of improbability, or perhaps they naively subscribe to the popular misbelief that bits is bits, that digital is robust if not immune to external influences, and therefore nothing can possibly make any sonic difference. Now we know better. Digital is vulnerable, fragile, and as susceptible to analog external influences as analog ever was. Digital is as fertile a ground for inventive tweaking as the vinyl LP ever was, and legitimately so. back to table of contents P.S. Valter All the best to you and your family for Xmas and New Year Alex. |
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Dec 23, 2009 20:44:50 GMT
Let me be the first to start the season greetings - happy holidays to All  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 20:48:50 GMT
Let me be the first to start the season greetings - happy holidays to All John Too late my friend  See DSOTM Let's all dream about getting something delivered by Santa as in Miguel's photo.At least we should wake up with smiles on our faces on Xmas morning ! Alex |
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Dec 23, 2009 21:25:32 GMT
...while we wait for Miguel:  Happy holidays Alex Happy holidays everybody |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2009 21:32:41 GMT
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Will
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Post by Will on Dec 24, 2009 10:46:45 GMT
FauDrei, out of interest, have you optimised your Thinkpads at all? I'm thinking along the lines of the USB drivers/ensuring that the hardware is controlled properly, with no conflicts. If you have, It'd be interesting to hear what you have done, so that others can also improve their PC/Laptop playback.
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Post by FauDrei on Dec 25, 2009 3:21:47 GMT
"Please allow me to introduce myself I'm an admin of resources and taste..." Well, being CTO has it's advantages: when I get new machine, the mandatory company's user/computer profile is the first thing that flies out the window. ;D I reinstall it with stripped OS version. XP for time being (have mission critical apps that do not fancy newer kernels and API's), Win7 x64 in probable future... little services optimization, a couple of HW/OS tweaks and you have your portable workhorse from cold to logged in cca. 30 s. No special attention is necessary for USB drivers - just install latest (Intel, I presume?) chipset drivers pack and check IRQ (interrupts) and DPC latencies under load. Never had problem with those. Watch out for wireless and card reader adapters though. IMO, HW configuration is not the problem - SW is: s*itload of unnecessary services, useless taskbar programs, paranoid firewall & AV... Then if you also add, lack of disk space (<20-25% free space), excess fragmentation (with HDDs - not SSDs)... this will bring even the fastest machine down, so watch first for those symptoms. After that you install (just the drivers, no additional SW ballast) your preferred external audio device, configure your preferred media player and accompanying music library and, if there are no Alex administered ABX tests , you send your men out and enjoy your latest headphone rig. All this in afterhours, of course.  Hope this addressed your question Will. Have you had something more specific on mind? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2009 5:21:56 GMT
Faudrei I wish you hadn't decided to stir on Xmas day.  I suggest that you read all the pages from 53 to 59, and seek out those other previous articles that were referred to. SandyK www.iar-80.com/page53.html - Improving CD Sound. p.53-59 SUMMARY : "Adding It All Up If we add up everything we've learned in the four lessons above, it suddenly becomes clear that all kinds of CD tweaks can and indeed should be effective in making a sonic difference. Those who deride CD tweaks as snake oil are actually themselves the peddlers of improbability, or perhaps they naively subscribe to the popular misbelief that bits is bits, that digital is robust if not immune to external influences, and therefore nothing can possibly make any sonic difference. Now we know better. Digital is vulnerable, fragile, and as susceptible to analog external influences as analog ever was. Digital is as fertile a ground for inventive tweaking as the vinyl LP ever was, and legitimately so." Additional Recommended Reading www.6moons.com/audioreviews/psaudio7/perfectwave.htmlwww.optics.arizona.edu/ODSCsponso....0Mansuripur.pdf |
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Post by FauDrei on Dec 25, 2009 17:23:29 GMT
No stirring Alex, just joked with the fact that my colleagues and I actually performed two blind tests with your rips. I even agree with CD tweaks thingie you posted. It is all in getting music bits (all of them) in properly timed fashion to the DAC chip. ...and I won't go further. Enjoy the rest of the Christmas Day. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2009 20:09:01 GMT
No stirring Alex, just joked with the fact that my colleagues and I actually performed two blind tests with your rips. I even agree with CD tweaks thingie you posted. It is all in getting music bits (all of them) in properly timed fashion to the DAC chip. ...and I won't go further. Enjoy the rest of the Christmas Day. Valter Are you referring to the DBTs where one of the group thought he did hear differences, but when subjected to that rather crude comparison method , beloved of computer "experts", as distinct from Audiophiles,was unable to perform like a trained seal on command ? In fact, before being virtually convinced by the sceptics present, that he must have imagined things initially, and then put under pressure, instead of listening again when relaxed ? In fact, he WAS correct the first time around ! ;D Ain't peer pressure grand ? ;D Alex P.S. A friend who has constructed the new Silicon Chip DAC kit, reports even better results when replacing the typical 2 terminal 24.576MHZ Xtal with a PFM Flea using a special order CMOS oscillator from HyQ. (I like the Osc. module idea, but feel the Flea part is unlikely to better the existing JLH he fitted especially for the 5V/3.3V area.) Have you ever wondered why they never seem to provide a facility to use a DFM to read the ACTUAL oscillator frequency, and provide a trimmer to adjust the frequency spot on ? Seriously ? |
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Will
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Post by Will on Dec 29, 2009 19:27:43 GMT
"Please allow me to introduce myself I'm an admin of resources and taste..." Well, being CTO has it's advantages: when I get new machine, the mandatory company's user/computer profile is the first thing that flies out the window. ;D I reinstall it with stripped OS version. XP for time being (have mission critical apps that do not fancy newer kernels and API's), Win7 x64 in probable future... little services optimization, a couple of HW/OS tweaks and you have your portable workhorse from cold to logged in cca. 30 s. No special attention is necessary for USB drivers - just install latest (Intel, I presume?) chipset drivers pack and check IRQ (interrupts) and DPC latencies under load. Never had problem with those. Watch out for wireless and card reader adapters though. IMO, HW configuration is not the problem - SW is: s*itload of unnecessary services, useless taskbar programs, paranoid firewall & AV... Then if you also add, lack of disk space (<20-25% free space), excess fragmentation (with HDDs - not SSDs)... this will bring even the fastest machine down, so watch first for those symptoms. After that you install (just the drivers, no additional SW ballast) your preferred external audio device, configure your preferred media player and accompanying music library and, if there are no Alex administered ABX tests , you send your men out and enjoy your latest headphone rig. All this in afterhours, of course. Hope this addressed your question Will. Have you had something more specific on mind? Faudrie, thanks for the info. I was wondering how/if you had optimised your system, is all. Not installing ballast makes a lot of sense to me, and would be a given. You mention killing services/removing other parts. Would you care to give examples, and perhaps a how to do it (maybe in another thread ) It would be useful for those of us about to embark on the musicPC route. I know that there is a lot out there about this sort of thing, but it'd be nice to see what 'our' people have done  |
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Dec 29, 2009 22:11:19 GMT
Services stripping, eh? You start here. For each OS you have "safe", "tweaked" and "bare bones" services configuration. My config is between "safe" and "tweaked", leaning more on the latter. Beside that, I advocate external music devices, USB ones generally. When dealing with those watch out on so called "DPC latencies". You also have to use "bitperfect" outputs. OS tends to "mix" and alter every audio output: kernel streaming, ASIO, WASAPI... are the methods used to circumvent that OS mixer and output unmodified music bitstream. Do not forget to max out the SW volume slider of your music listening audio device - anything under 100% reduces the output dynamic range and is therefore not bit-perfect. Finally, I'd put a good word for Foobar2000. Small, fast, does not eat up resources, extremely configurable (which can be intimidating from the start) and does EVERYTHING. But if you've set everything correctly up to this point - the music player selection should make no difference. SQ wise anyway. There. No need for separate thread.  |
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Post by Will on Dec 29, 2009 22:34:53 GMT
Cheers, Good Stuff! Only suggested a new thread to prevent further 'OT' posting. Sorry Jkeny!  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2009 22:56:36 GMT
Creative Media Source Player STILL sounds better to several RG members ! I am willing to bet that XXHE sounds even better with Windows 7, just as EAC sounds better than dbPoweramp and other rippers. ( Except where EAC rip speed gets down to a fraction of normal playing speed ) Again, not all "ones and zeroes" are created equal ! Which is something that Faudrei is unlikely to ever concede. |
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Post by jkeny on Dec 29, 2009 23:15:48 GMT
Cheers, Good Stuff! Only suggested a new thread to prevent further 'OT' posting. Sorry Jkeny! I've no problem with these posts - I enjoy reading. BTW, is there a way to run Foobar as a background process - I can't be bothered with trying to configure it - tried but there aren't many preformed UI's which can just be downloaded & applied to Foobar? My favourite music player is MP3Toys but it doesn't have ASIO or KS output BUT it can invoke Foobar as external player so I was wondering if there was a background Foobar mode? |
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Post by FauDrei on Dec 30, 2009 3:02:58 GMT
JKeny, foobar can be invoked from command line and fed with requested parameters. I use it this way from mp3tag application when I need to convert selected lossless playlists into AAC for my iPod. That could be only because it "mixes-up" your music You know that you can use ANY professional VST (or directX) audio plugin in foobar? Stuff that costs up to five $ figures (Waves, Steinberg, Native Instruments...). I've played some time ago with iZotope Ozone - a complete realtime 64bit float mastering solution in one plugin. Really nice toy, it does wonders with your music in realtime playback, using 10-15% of your CPU time. I bet it can be configured to match or surpass CMSP in sound brilliance. ...but I prefer "clean" bitstream. More mixing? Nah! XXHE is probably doing it right and using some kind of KS or ASIO for bit-perfect output. But I do not see a single thing that it does, that foobar can not match. You can configure foobar to "play from RAM" and give it's process/threads desired priority. Voila! You configured yourself a "true audiophile" media player. Well, then I'm starting a "equality for all our 1s and 0s" movement... |
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Post by jkeny on Dec 30, 2009 3:43:50 GMT
JKeny, foobar can be invoked from command line and fed with requested parameters. I use it this way from mp3tag application when I need to convert selected lossless playlists into AAC for my iPod. Yes, I believe that is what my front-end music player is doing - sending commend line parameters to Foobar but it also switches the screen to foobar & I was hoping that it woul dbe able to invoke Foobar in the background without jumping into Foobar's UI. It would also use less processes with no UI itself. Seen as Foobar's UI is it's weakness, I wondered if the developers had thought of a way of starting it as a background task only? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2009 9:34:02 GMT
Faudrei You have been listening to Jitter for so long from mediocre Optical drives used for ripping, and USB OUT, that nearly all the experts have given up on in favour of SPDIF, Firewire 800 etc, that you wouldn't know a clean Bitstream if it came up and bit you on the bum ! And you are the ONLY person able to listen to music that isn't all mixed up ?  Yes, follow these guidelines, and you too can have an Audiophile player, where high res material sounds very little different to 16/44.1 material !!! Why else can other people hear differences between files with less jitter, and those with much more jitter, and yet you steadfastly maintain that it is impossible for there to be a difference ? Despite what you say, I don't believe for a moment, that you REALLY believe that a cheap and nasty , mass produced DVD Rom, can't save exactly the same sounding .wav files to a quality USB pen or SSD drive , than a high quality CD/DVD ROM using anti vibration measures, or that an upmarket CD transport can sound better than a cheap SMPS powered DVD player when used as a transport, after all, the bits coming out are normally identical ! You still believe that a CD with greasy fingerprints and minor surface scratches/scuff marks all over it, sounds the same as a pristine new CD, as long as the ripper you are using yields similar checksums ! You previously boasted that you are an EXPERT in the field. SandyK Benny Hill's definition of an EXPERT : X marks the spot. SPURT - A drip under pressure. |
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Dec 31, 2009 2:49:55 GMT
JKeny, have you tried starting foobar, minimizing it and after that invoking it from other app. via command line?
Alex, you, as always, filter out in your answers every piece of information that does not suit your cause. So, this time, instead of trying to further explain my arguments I will just say that you can hardly argue about other people's media, gear, configurations and listening results/experiences while using digital out from a sound card that can not do redbook bit-perfect through a player that uses DS/kmixer play method. You may as well be an analogue audio God, but for computer audio, if you do not understand the implications of what I've said in previous sentence - you are still searching for that X that marks the spot.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2009 3:40:27 GMT
Valter When you start taking seriously that the actual CD rip is the most important part of the saving to the storage media of a .wav file, and that the resultant .wav files can sound different despite what the check sums may say, then I will take a more indepth look at the rest of what you have to say on the subject of playback . I have already stated that I will be moving to Windows 7 shortly, and using XXHE, which should give even better playback than at present with CMSP and it's own version of Asio. As far as I am concerned, the main objective should be to get as Jitter free as possible rip to the storage media. I do not remember you even addressing that issue. Some people ,like JeffC and "Silverlight" from Computer Audiophile even go so far as to uses external USB BluRay drives running off laptop battery, and go to a great deal of trouble to vibration dampen the Optical readers with3M 2552 tape as well as special vibration dampening feet etc. Whatever you do AFTER the .wav file has been ripped, is a little like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted. The damage has already been done, and no amount of playback tweaking,or different types of storage media is going to fix that. You just end up with different shades of mediocre. Anyway, I have more important things to worry about than this never ending verbal sparring. I am close to the "smoke letting out" stage with the Silicon Chip DAC, which BTW, does not use your beloved USB . Alex |
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Jan 4, 2010 22:21:12 GMT
Soooooooooo, this thread was originally "Storage Options" and it seems that we are no closer in spite of the 2 camps actually not being as "opposed" as they may seem.
If the first argument is not SQ, then FauDrei is right in my opinion. Identical checksums mean identical files from a data standpoint. That doesn't mean that the copied files sound the same if on different media. It just means that they do not deteriorate as long as they stay in their original digital file format. An "optimally" ripped file copied to a cheap DVD-R can be copied again to better media and sound better when played back - nothing was lost in the process. Jitter is only "added" when we leave the original "file" format!
So the real contention is how to get the most information moved with the least depreciation in SQ. I am convinced that there are several roads to this goal and as we can't directly "listen" to the digital signal, we will have to accept that synergy and complementary behaviour actually result in the audible signals that we use for comparison. I am convinced that we can't "hear" the digital differences, we are actually hearing symptoms in the analog chain primarily intermodulation, phase or frequency response errors or frequencies not present in the original recording. Seeing as how a couple of degrees difference in ambient temperature changes the resonance of transducers like headphones and speakers, the frequency domain is a moving target in any case. It is possible that added brightness due to a 44.1 KHz signal modulating the overtones of a violin could be interpreted as a veil more or less depending on the chain. Here I also agree with FauDrei. The playback chain causes the difference if it can't "handle" the media.
Playback IS affected by the media chosen however. I have experimented with this and SSDs do seem to sound nicer for playback using my MacBook (with battery), a Focusrite multichannel DAC (firewire) with a solid analog PS (although for multitrack recording, I have not been able to tell the difference between media, this could be because recording is not done with a constant audio stream, rather collects in a buffer and then periodically dumps to the media). Powersupply issues with the DAC are very audible and I spent quite a bit of time until I got this worked out. This also confirms (for me at least) FauDreis suspicion that it is the playback gear (including the DAC).
One day when I get some time I will build an optimized media (no Windows) PC with an analog PS, SSDs in a RAID0 array and use the Apogee PCI interface with their clock and DAC. I heard a similar system and was very impressed by the lack of spectacular but solid tonality and stability of the image. As the thread owner originally asked, it will also have a shock mounted, damped multi TB HD array for archive purposes (no reason to take a chance). Listening will be done after copying to SSD or RAM Disc (depending on my experience). As this is internal and over the system bus, it is very fast and easy to copy. I then have the best of all worlds. For certain members of the family that do not want the fuss, they can listen directly to the HD if they want.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2010 22:59:09 GMT
Ain't necessarily so !!! Robin Did you read the attached link from another thread ? Unfortunately, there are a lot of pages, but you could always go to the Conclusion first ! Earlier papers from there are very enlightening, but unfortunately don't seem available any more, at least without paying for them ! Alex www.iar-80.com/page53.htmlP.S. If you are still unconvinced, how would you like an earlier version of DS-L.O.G. and a very recent version ripped directly from the LG BR to the 32GB Corsair Voyager GT USB 2.0 pen for comparison ? The check sums are identical. Or perhaps rips to the same HDD done 3 months apart, after various dampening changes ? |
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Post by rowuk on Jan 4, 2010 23:58:17 GMT
Ain't necessarily so !!! Robin Did you read the attached link from another thread ? Unfortunately, there are a lot of pages, but you could always go to the Conclusion first ! Earlier papers from there are very enlightening, but unfortunately don't seem available any more, at least without paying for them ! Alex www.iar-80.com/page53.htmlYup. I can relate to a couple of points, but wrote off other ones (liquids for instance) as BS many years ago. If a CD playback system has a weak PS that doesn't have enough current for the mechanical, analog and digital sides, it is crap and no amount of disc tweak will change that. Fix the problem instead of applying bandaids! Shit PS are probably the biggest SQ offenders when plugged into conventional mains. They can be fixed relatively cheaply and easily. A decent UPS (APC RT series for instance) is cheap and helps a lot too. We can avoid so much of the mechanical issues by not using the disc for playback, rather just copying the data to more mechanically stable media and then ripping from there. I have "balanced" discs myself (don't forget to seal the edge so the aluminium layer doesn't oxidize) discovered that the data layer was not always centered on the spindle hole.........., destroyed others with the wrong pen - the solvent in the ink "melted the plastic" on the edge. I had a customer that worked in the optical department at Rodenstock, the company that makes eyeglass lenses and camera lenses. They have a plastic lens polisher that can turn the surface of the CD to almost perfectly transparent, put on a hardened surface, polaroid filter(very promising - no reflected light out of a small window or a tint on it. I tried so much of this stuff and played back on just about all types of equipment. Most of the time with no statistically valid difference (we would listen blindfolded). I don't mess with this stuff much anymore. The music either is great enough that it would be convincing on AM radio or I am not interested. When I casually listen, I have internet radio with "decent" SQ: Classical Minnesota Public Radio and only through speakers. Serious listening is my concert masters that never had a disc in the chain, were recorded with an external master clock that sychronized the Mac and the multitrack DAC. 5cm of microphone spacing changes more of the SQ than any of the tweaks. My son made a discovery using essentially coincident omnidirectional and cardoids and crossing over to the omnis below 100 hz. Much less EQ and compression required later. Very flat response and perfect tonality. Any ripping that I do is always to full sized WAV. I do buy a bit from iTunes though. Most serious stereo listening is done from a ram disc. I need a bit more time with a recent concert then I'll get you a sample of Bruckners 4th Symphony with a 107 piece orchestra that I play in. You can check if your playback system correctly resolves the 20x15 meter stage and 50 x 130 meter hall. It is audible and geometrically reproducible. Glorious music too. We recorded at 96/24 with the special array my son developed and an absolute minimum of spot microphones (none for the brass though we were 20 meters away from the microphones). I'll let you know. I have a bunch of New Years concerts this month that keep my ears tuned but time for other stuff minimized. By the way, I have compelling reasons NOT to scotch tape hard drives any more. The reason is thermal management. I had 2 taped ones fail recently. Looking at the S.M.A.R.T. history, it was temperature. Untaped ones now are 10-15° cooler. My alternative is to mass couple. Get either a HD size block of lead or granite and bolt it in between the active drives. I will experiment with other perhaps more inert compound materials, but those 2 work very well and are CHEAP and easy to implement. |
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