Will
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Post by Will on Oct 2, 2009 11:15:16 GMT
I've been having a look around for a PC sound card that had Spdif output mainly, as I won't really be using the analogue audio outs on it. The Juli@ seems a hot favourite, as you can split the digital section off, and just use that. Trouble is, I'm a tight git, and spending £100+ on a card, and then not using half kind of grates at bit. So I had a look around. Asus have been making headway into the PC sound card arena, with cards across the price and ability range. I looked at the high-end of Asus' range but found again that I'd be paying for stuff I did'nt need . Further down the range, into what they consider their gaming cards, I found this, the Asus Xonar DS Looking at the spec, It supports digital out up 24/192, plus ASIO for full bit-perfect re-production. Spot on, I thought, and a bargain at £35. But hang on, the Spdif is shown as an optical out, so would be limited for my use, as I use co-axial. Further digging into this board show that it has a Spdif header out, J8, for pass through to HDMI video cards. It has 3 pins on it, so I ordered it, just in case I can tap the Spdif from the jumper. If not, then it's not a problem, as I have been limited to 16/44 on my motherboards built in spdif, and I would get a nice soundcard for when I play Supreme Commander! The card arrived today, and I pleased to say that it was a piece of piss cake to tap into the Spdif from J8. There are three pins, the first is the signal earth, the second is signal. Drop the co-ax braid onto the first pin, and the co-ax center onto the second pin. Don't know what the third pin does! I've tried tracks from 16/44 through to 24/192, and the only one that did not work was 24/176, but I reckon that is a software problem that I need to sort out. For £35, I think that I have a bargain, for my needs of of only a decent Spdif out. It would be easy to place a pulse transformer in circuit for galvanic isolation, and if you do want to use the analogue out, you have a plug and play op-amp on board. The card is supplied with a jrc 5532, but you could easily swap it out for a 2134 or similar, if you wanted. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2009 11:39:08 GMT
Will What a ripoff ! It doesn't have all those coloured LEDs to light up the back of your PC for you like the Xonar D2X does!  What DAC are you using that accepts 24/192 in ? The Buffalo ? Alex |
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Will
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Post by Will on Oct 2, 2009 12:02:14 GMT
I could fix the LED problem by podging a Salas shunt in there  Yep, I'm sending the signal straight into the Buffalo, via a 10M coax cable, which is the run from the dining room, where the PC lives, into the living room where my Buff and Headamp lives. Currently listening to them Fleetwood Mac tracks again. Bloody stunning  The card will be going to live in the Music PC I'm planning. Got the spdif sorted, so now need to figure the motherboard, which'll be ITX This is after I've finished the Buff PSU's of course. One thing that puzzles me, isn't optical spdif limited to 24/96? If it is, wonder how Asus can market this as 24/196 digital out? |
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Spirit
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Post by Spirit on Oct 7, 2009 0:17:48 GMT
Ah Supreme Commander... Fantastic game. Some mates and I usually play a few rounds of a custom "survival" map wherein you build a base at the centre and try to fend off waves of increasingly more powerful units (and eventually nukes ;D). Great single player game too.
Did you ever play Total Annihilation?
Presumably it's legal to market the Xonar as 24/192 because you can use J8 to pass the signal to HDMI cards?
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Will
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Post by Will on Oct 7, 2009 18:44:33 GMT
Did I ever play TA? Oh yes!
Superb game, and one I still play (have the CD in the laptop, and I'm working my way through the campaigns for the nth time)
I bought it when it came out, and even bought core contingency and battle tactics when they arrived. Still remember when Cavedog used to put a new unit or map up for download on a Friday night. I used to play head to head with few mates on my blisteringly fast 28k modem, but most recently played against my eldest lad, who has taken a shine to it.
Did you ever see the TA:Spring mod that the Swedish Yank Spankers did? Full 3D, just like in SC. Well ahead of it's time.
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Will
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Post by Will on Oct 7, 2009 19:04:10 GMT
Actually, Phil, I had a 'RTFM' moment and had a look at the manual, which state that you can connect a coax RCA to the combo line/optical spdif socket, and it'll work.
Certainly not the most brilliant electrical connection, so I'll be sticking with my wires on the jumper.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2009 20:23:54 GMT
Actually, Phil, I had a 'RTFM' moment and had a look at the manual, which state that you can connect a coax RCA to the combo line/optical spdif socket, and it'll work. Certainly not the most brilliant electrical connection, so I'll be sticking with my wires on the jumper. Will He,He ! All you needed to do was plug in your RCA lead. ;D My Xonar D2x has 2 obvious gold plated RCA sockets for SPDIF In and OUT. Alex |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 7, 2009 20:26:09 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 7, 2009 20:42:12 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 7, 2009 20:46:54 GMT
Sorry...... ignore me guys, I'm a total virgin when it comes to soundcards  |
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Will
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Post by Will on Oct 7, 2009 21:00:59 GMT
Actually, Phil, I had a 'RTFM' moment and had a look at the manual, which state that you can connect a coax RCA to the combo line/optical spdif socket, and it'll work. Certainly not the most brilliant electrical connection, so I'll be sticking with my wires on the jumper. Will He,He ! All you needed to do was plug in your RCA lead. ;D My Xonar D2x has 2 obvious gold plated RCA sockets for SPDIF In and OUT. Alex I know, I felt a right pillock when I read that! Still don't like the idea of plugging a RCA into a 3.5mm jack socket, though. Also doesn't fit in with my BNC fetish, either  |
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Will
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Post by Will on Oct 7, 2009 21:10:02 GMT
Something like that would be perfect if your motherboard or sound card doesn't have a spdif out. Inside the box, you'll most likely find one of the same family of TI chips that you have in your NG27, except it just does Spdif out. TI do a range of USB to audio chips, some are self powered from the USB, some give audio out only, and other give spdif and I2S. You choose one for the job you want it to do, design the PCB and away you go. TI USB family, and what they can do It's a very good price, considering the you can pay $100+ for similar kit. That Asus sound card is a nice bit of kit, as well, and apparently has a good analogue out, which you can modify by swapping opamps. I think Chris (Master of Sausages) has posted elsewhere about it. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 7, 2009 21:20:38 GMT
I'll soon catch up with all this stuff Will The NG27 has got my juices flowing so it won't be long before I'm writing a book on soundcards...... I just needed a shove in the right direction and the NG27 has done just that  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2009 21:56:53 GMT
I'll soon catch up with all this stuff Will The NG27 has got my juices flowing so it won't be long before I'm writing a book on soundcards...... I just needed a shove in the right direction and the NG27 has done just that Mike Before long, you will see what a few of us have been raving on about in the Computer area of the forum, and the file exchanges. Be prepared to spend heaps of time relistening to all your favourite CDs, because you are going to hear stuff in them that you have never noticed before. Normal CD playback really is lightyears behind the best you can get from a quiet PC with a good DAC and HA.(or PC-DAC-main system) Just wait until you REALLY hear the fabulous SQ of "Love Over Gold" for the 1st time. It's a bloody marvellous recording. It's a pity most of today's recording engineers have lost the plot . Alex |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2009 22:24:43 GMT
I think Chris (Master of Sausages) has posted elsewhere about it. You are quite right Will. My Wide-Angle-Super-Sausage-Array ( W.A.S.S.A. ) found and posted it Here. It was suitably replied to by those in the know. |
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Oct 7, 2009 22:48:47 GMT
Guys, guys, guys... I feel like I've been talking to walls Those TI 27xx chips are old news... Yes, they work and they work good, but recently we got better choices... For the n-th time: if you need really good digital out from your computer get this or that. This can do up to 24/192 and has proprietary async USB drivers. That is very HQ implementation of standard 16/48 which also offers I 2S output. Async is good, because the converter does not depend on the computer streaming of data (music) in exact points in time (synchronous) - converter controls the data flow as needed. I 2S is good because it is the newest digital audio data standard which handles transmitter/receiver clock synchronization can be fed directly to most DAC chips without additional receiver electronics. ...and the prices are OK too.  |
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Spirit
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Post by Spirit on Oct 7, 2009 23:12:29 GMT
Actually, Phil, I had a 'RTFM' moment and had a look at the manual, which state that you can connect a coax RCA to the combo line/optical spdif socket, and it'll work. Why am I not surprised? Ditto everything you said about TA , minus buying it [at the time] - I bought it much later, and the 28k... I didn't play it against a mate till about 18 months ago. Yes, I did see Spring, and messed about with it briefly a number of times before SC came out. Most impressive indeed. Might see if this survival map scales down well to 2 players... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 1:40:21 GMT
Guys, guys, guys... I feel like I've been talking to walls Those TI 27xx chips are old news... Yes, they work and they work good, but recently we got better choices... For the n-th time: if you need really good digital out from your computer get this or that. This can do up to 24/192 and has proprietary async USB drivers. That is very HQ implementation of standard 16/48 which also offers I 2S output. Async is good, because the converter does not depend on the computer streaming of data (music) in exact points in time (synchronous) - converter controls the data flow as needed. I 2S is good because it is the newest digital audio data standard which handles transmitter/receiver clock synchronization can be fed directly to most DAC chips without additional receiver electronics. ...and the prices are OK too. Better still, if you MUST use USB , save your pennies and get a Benchmark USB DAC which also does that,and does SPDIF as well. Wait a little while to make sure it is reliable, then replace the two 5532 devices that convert I>V after the DAC with S0-8 LM4562 . This came from a younger ex workmate of mine after a recent comparison with my modded X-DAC V3 Alex |
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Oct 8, 2009 7:30:57 GMT
While I agree that certain DACs have good USB inputs (Wavelength DACs...) I think that good USB converters are more versatile: every dac has some kind of SPDIF/toslink input - and with those gadgets your DAC gets HQ USB conversion without spending high $ on new DAC.
Have any of you wondered why (good) CD transport sounds better than computer played lossless rip through the same DAC?
This just might be the answer.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 7:56:44 GMT
FauDrei
Are you just talking about "lossless" files, or .wav files also, and are you only referring to USB input of the DAC ?
SandyK
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 8:45:31 GMT
Alex
How did the Benchmark compare to your AK-mods DAC?
Syd
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 9:07:13 GMT
Alex How did the Benchmark compare to your AK-mods DAC? Syd Hi Syd If you are referring to my modified X-DAC V3 with outboard dual regulated PSU + JLH built in, it was IMHO, considerably better than the Benchmark USB DAC, both into the Class A HA from the PC, and from my modified Oppo DVD981HD into Class A preamplifier and Class A amplifier. I feel confident that Allan would agree also. Obviously my friend who owned the Benchmark DAC agreed, as although the DAC was new, the next day (Sunday) he had it apart and replaced 2 SM NE5532 with SM LM4562 . He now claims that it performs similarly to his own modified X-DAC V3. Incidentally, We could not pick any obvious SQ differences between USB and SPDIF with the Benchmark DAC, which appears to confirm the maufacturer's claims about Jitter reduction in USB mode. I believe that the performance from the PC was FAR better than that via the Oppo with the original CD. In fact, I would say that the PC audio is way better than CD playback from my friend's Marantz SA11, with or without, the X-DAC V3. Alex |
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Oct 8, 2009 12:29:36 GMT
Are you just talking about "lossless" files, or .wav files also, and are you only referring to USB input of the DAC ? Alex - in my book and through my computers lossless and wavs are the same (remember, I still am that rebelious non-converted pagan ), so yes - I was referring to both. Also, yes - I was addressing just USB input DAC stages and not DACs as a whole. I was amazed with audible SQ improvement by "just" swapping an ordinary USB to SPDIF converter with proper one. Moreso because I thought there were nothing to improve in this part of the chain (HagUsb being highly acclaimed and I being satisfied with it's supremacy over majority of USB inputs of DACs that went through my hands). Live and learn they say... ...but I am still uber atheist regerding lossless vs. wavs, bit-per-bit same rips sounding different, computer damping and silencing, etc...  |
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Will
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Post by Will on Oct 8, 2009 17:48:03 GMT
DAC's, as a rule, take a spdif input as a minimum, so whether you are using a CD player, DAT player, a computer or whatever, it seems to make sense to go for a spdif output from your computer, to feed into your DAC.
Converting the digital music on your PC to a spdif signal can be done in a few ways, USB being one, a direct spdif out from your motherboard/sound card being another. Using USB to convert to spdif seems to me, to be adding another layer to the process of converting digitally stored music to a spdif signal.
It is a great solution if you are using a laptop or other PC that does not or cannot have a direct spdif output.
If using a full size PC or similar, then personally I cannot see the point of using a usb-to-spdif convertor, when you could be directly feeding out from the PC to the DAC. The case for this is greater still when moving into the realm of hi-res music, as the majority of spdif outputs can handle these without resorting to propriety drivers, as USB does. Using propriety USB drivers for hi-res again adds another layer of complication/potential problem, and also may prevent using the hi res usb on any PC you wish, as the software may be restricted to being installed on one PC.
I think that USB will come of age, PC music wise, in the next year or so. 2010 should see USB 3.0 becoming widespread, which has the throughput capability of supporting hi-res music files natively, allowing them to be used anywhere. When this happens, I think we'll start seeing DAC chips that accept USB inputs directly, just as the current Sabre chip accepts I2S, PCM/Spdif and DSD directly.
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Oct 8, 2009 20:15:30 GMT
Well... one point in favour of external USB anything can be moving delicate mission critical electronics away from noisy computer internals into its appropriate noise free enclosure...
Also, having properly written dedicated drivers is advantage against using general off-the-mill drivers written as an afterthought and not with SQ in mind.
Add async in the mix and you have bitperfect 24/192 with almost no CPU usage (if guys have programmed it properly - all is done through IRQs and DMA).
USB 3.0? Nice... when it arrives. But even then someone has to properly implement dedicated audio drivers.
IMO, of course...
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