Modify a PC's CD/DVD Transport

[Deleted]

Modify a PC's CD/DVD Transport

Some time back, I detailed modifications to my Oppo DV981HD SACD/DVD-A player. These involved replacing the main Bridge Rectifier diodes in the Switchmode PSU with the Very Fast Soft–Recovery Avalanche Rectifier BYV26C ,as well as fitting a 100nF 630V capacitor across the main 47uF 400V reservoir electrolytic, which is associated with these BR diodes.
I also detailed the addition of self adhesive felt to inside the cover, selected areas of the chassis, and around the Transport itself.
The result was quite a noticeable improvement in SQ via SPDIF, as well as a glossier picture via S-VHS and HDMI.
More full on modifications are given at the attached links, but are NOT recommended for novices.

www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb200006.htm
www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb200007.htm

Following on from the Oppo dampening mods which had proved quite succesful, today I added some self adhesive felt dampening to underneath my BluRay writer, as well as around various spots around the PC's mounting metalwork for the writers etc. and a little around the lower support frame for the HDDs.
I then re-ripped "Michelle Nicolle-The Crying Game" and compared a few tracks via the new Asus sound card.
Not surprisingly, the newer rip sounds just a little more "cleaner" and a little clearer,just as it did with the Oppo. I would also mention that more upmarket players go to a lot of trouble with chassis dampening etc. .
Oh, and the checksums are still the same !!!

SandyK

[rickcr42]

once actual transport vibrations are dealt with,that is those vibrsations that are self generated due to the internal mechanical drive,the next "holy shit" upgrade would be to isolate the transport from OUTSIDE influence which means making the device as blind to environmental influence (even a truck going by outside can play hell with electro-mechanical devices when that device is a high resolution audio device and moreso with headphone monitoring) OR if you can't isolate the second best (maybe best ?) method is to "tune" the vibrations to a region that compliments rather than takes away so for instance you want to slow down the vibrations and have them decay in a natural manner.

Quick 'N dirty would be to place three wood blocks under the transport to eliminate the mounting surface as a conveyer of ITS "tone" by creating a buffer between the two (any "upscale" childrens toy that makes hardwood building blocks but in a pinch those cheap ass cedar blocks you can buy in damn near any department store for tossing in your "sock" drawer so your "tighty whities" don't get "buggy" ( would be damn uncomfortable ) just for the proof of concept stage realizing each different type of wood will have its own "tuning" range by nature of how tight its grain is (pine open,ebony tight as hell) or its hardness level (softwood vs hardwood).

If you can get 2" square Maple blocks (childrens building blocks) you are home free

Next would be to add somme "top mass".

Ever rap the top of a CD/DVD player top ? If there is a worse offender in a domestic audio system on the "ringing bastard" level i have no idea what it would be and why when you pay out the extra moola for a high end transport the first thing you notice right away is the front panel and top are THICK and HEAVY and the reason is so the bitch won't vibrate in sympathy with whatever is going on in the world at the moment


Again,quick 'n dirty would be a simple zip lock bag filled with sand.Good enough for proof of concept,looks like shit for long term use but if you find it does "help" in combination with a wood footer then you can move up to a permanant replacement

1-brass weights rule but local "non audio" sources may be rough to find
2-the DIY TNT "CDP Press" www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/press_e.html



3-The ultimate after market weight www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/brassweights_hub.php

Better would be a "total" package of isolation and damping (top weight,brass spike footers to wood "tuning" platform,isoblocks between the platform and mounting surface) but even a simple three childrens building block/POS sand bag combination will reveal a lot more low level detail because NOW it will be the electronics you hear and not those same electronics influenced by environmental vibration,a thing that will allow one to better dial in the actual working circuits (like strapping down and damping large film caps ) and KNOW the results will be a constant/repeatable rather than static situation with the initial cost mere pennies when you compare to most audio "tweakery"

[robertkd]

cheze that last picture might look nice but bollocks if you think that is going to isolate the device from much more then a fly landing on which ever device in the picture.

pretty but no real mass and no isolation to speak of sorry Rick,..

Robert

[rickcr42]

the "mass" is added via the brass ingots on top of each unit (brass is not just damn heavy for its size but mostly inert as in does not ring,but then neither does sand )

The "isolation" part is three stage and uses the technique of each section either not being able to speak to another (constrained layer) or when it does dissapation so

1-triple point spikes DOWN on the actual transport
2-very thick and heavy maple "tuning" board (the dissapation part) which now becomes the dominant mounting surface because
3-Cork and rubber isolation blocks to TOTALLY isolate the platform from the mounting surface.

On that last just go to any industrial "vibration control" site and you will see the fact sheets on just how effective these simple blocks are and even better you can usually find industrial sources of the material in both pre-cut blocks AND full sheets that you can cut yourself for a nice price.

svc440.bne087du.server-web.com/Pricelst.htm

That is the full tilt boogie system.Quick 'N Dirty ?

Shitcan ALL your rubber feet and replace them with 2"x2" maple blocks (childrens building blocks ).

or use the "commercial" version:

www.soundstagedirect.com/audio-elegance-accessories.shtml



these things work WAY better than they have a right to and especially in combination with some top mass


unless you shoot expanding foam into every crevasse of a transport (and no one would be that retarded.........I think ) then spend $10K on a lab quality isolation table



www.directindustry.com/prod/bilz-vibration-technology/vibration-isolation-table-40410-376422.html

www.vistekinc.com/vibration-isolation-tables.php

www.ptb-sales.com/lab-test/semiconductor/wentworth/926.html

this system is damn hard to beat and it took me a damn lot of years to get this sh*t down after trying every manner of "floating" (squishy balls,inner tube,air bladder,etc) and spike foundation because in my naivety I did not realise one you "spike" something to a surface THAT surface now becomes THE sounding board for everything so if it is hard (hard to hard) you can actually end up with even more ringing and vibration because of the transmission system which works as a single unit rather than handing off to a dissimiliar surface where the bandwidth of the vibrations change thus cancelling out if done right

[rickcr42]

or you could always go this route



;D

[robertkd]

now your talking Bro go the Barry Mounts and some real mass

love your work

Robert

[Deleted]

If anybody with high resolution PC soundcard etc. is interested in comparing a couple of music tracks to see if they can hear differences, the links are below. (there are no spaces in the links)
Alex

Links have been removed as they are no longer valid, and too many non members may also be trying to access these links, making them ineffective.
Future links will be provided to RG members on request.
Alex

[Will]

It seems that the mods are definitely worthwhile doing. The difference is subtle, but an improvement over the undamped version.

[Will]

Miguel, that is exactly the difference I described to Alex in an e-mail. V2 has a wider soundstage for sure, but I described it as being airy, rather than cleaner. This is down to me probably misunderstanding the terms. I think I noticed the sound you mentioned as well, but only the first instance. It took me a bit longer to find the difference, but again it is down to my inexperience, but it is nice to have it corroborated !

For reference, I used my laptop, feeding a USB DAC (alien), into my SCHA/K701.

[Deleted]

Jun 2, 2009 22:39:22 GMT Will said:

Miguel, that is exactly the difference I described to Alex in an e-mail. V2 has a wider soundstage for sure, but I described it as being airy, rather than cleaner. This is down to me probably misunderstanding the terms. I think I noticed the sound you mentioned as well, but only the first instance. It took me a bit longer to find the difference, but again it is down to my inexperience, but it is nice to have it corroborated !

For reference, I used my laptop, feeding a USB DAC (alien), into my SCHA/K701.

Will and Miguel

I also found that Renee Olstead's solo voice faded into "blackness" with Version2 , and seemed to last that little bit longer,especially with the sentence "fish are jumpin, and the cotton is high" This was with the files as downloaded, not the original files before uploading.
Alex

P.S.
I am really looking forward to dampening the BR writer with some 3M high tech sound absorption material that JeffC is sending me. Jeff has already said that he is hearing further improvements after using this. Jeff also has an added advantage,in that his BR drive is installed in it's own case away from the PC noise. It also has it's own SMPS.
Below are the checksums for the files as uploaded :
Checksums generated by ExactFile 1.0.0.15
; www.exactfile.com
; 3/06/2009 9:41:30 AM

22253b8c314655a41f4fa4578c366844 *Renee -Summertime V1.wav
22253b8c314655a41f4fa4578c366844 *Renee Olstead-Summertime V2.wav

; 2 files hashed.

[Will]

Rick, great posts by the way, very interesting stuff.

[Deleted]

If anyone is trying to access the download links from post6, it appears that there may be some unpublicised limitation to the number of times they are downloaded before they become restricted, despite being valid for 1 week. Currently, even better examples of the differences could be uploaded if enough interest, as the 3M aluminium based sound absorption tape that is now affixed to the BR writer, has further increased the audible differences between files,in many instances, dramatically improving detail AND dynamics,as well as soundstage.
JeffC will more than likely post something in this regard shortly.
Alex

P.S.
The checksums are STILL identical.

[robertkd]

Jun 5, 2009 10:18:08 GMT @sandyk said:

P.S.
The checksums are STILL identical.

yes,.. but still no sets of steak knifes

Robert

[Deleted]

Robert
Don't need sets of steak knives. Can't cut that lovely US$97 a reel 3M tape with them !
Alex

[jeffc]

Guys, an update

SandyK and I are currently revelling in absolute sonic bliss with PC-based .wav file playback. Why? Based on his impressions of SQ improvements from .wav files ripped from his BR writer, after some felt damping, that were supported by Miguel and Will, I suggested to him that we try some 3M viscoelastic Damping Foil 2552 that you might have seen wrapped around and used as heat sinks on the metal can LM4562HA opamps used in my SCHA and cheapo DAC. I've used this tape for amp and CDP case damping, even including PCB damping, for a couple of years now. Love the virtues of the stuff so much that I had used what I had, but Alex's enthusiasm prompted me to get some more and test what improvements it might bring in damping both our LG BR writers, mine in an external case, Alex’s in his PC.

Now laugh as you might, what we have been listening to is .wav files on HDD ripped from our 3M tape-damped BR writers. You know those digital files that if they have identical MD5 checksums, will sound the same. Absolute bullshit they do and we now have resounding proof, read my lips .. UNREFUTABLE PROOF!!!

So here’s a taste of email correspondence that followed us damping our LG BR writers. As you’ll gather, simply damping the writer with the 3M damping foil has redefined the capabilities of PC-based .wav file audio from the lowly 44.1kHz/16 bit CD format.

Alex’s response to a .wav file I uploaded to VIPeers.

“I have just been comparing 3 versions of Voodoo Chile (Slight Return) from Jeff's uploads. Now taking into account, that Jeff's LG -GGW H20L, is already in it's own external box, which includes it's own SMPS and fastidious isolation measures already in place, I find it nothing short of amazing that applying the 3M aluminium based high tech anti vibration tape to the case, can clearly take it to even higher performance with better separation between instruments and voices. The original CD rip is dull and boring in comparison. The BR-BR rip with added sound deadening is markedly better, but this lot has taken it to an even higher level. Amazing stuff !” Alex

My response after playing about some more

“Ripped another BR-CDR and this is magic. The dynamics are wild, ambiance is wild, detail is wild, immediacy is wild, every thing's completely feral and alive.” Jeff

Alex’s response after 3M tape damping his BR writer

Subject: F**king Incredible
“I have just been laying down on the bed listening to the whole Papa Doo Run Run 3M rip. I think what I said in the Subject sums it all up ! Subtle, this aint !!! With CDs like that, who needs high res !! It seems incredible that all that information and dynamics has been there all along, and we didn't know it. That 3M adhesive tape (courtesy of Jeff) dampening the BR writer top and bottom, sure has made a HUGE difference. Also, with my new PDRR rip, the f**king checksum is still the same !!”

And this is just a taste of our enthusiasm, but it’s saved me harping on and gives a clear picture of the potential virtues of what damping internal vibrations in any CD/DVD/BR writer can do for the sound quality of a .wav file ripped to and played back from HDD. We're still in twilight zone territory as to why this is, but it’s real.

Alex has copped a lot of flack about his claims that .wav files with the same checksums sound better when ripped from a Blu-spec CD using the BR writer compared to a normal CD using a CD-DVD writer. Our listening tests over the past day or two confirm this way beyond belief and it really has taken 44.1kHz/16 bit HDD sound quality to a far higher level than anyone could imagine.

A new dawn of 44.1kHz/16 bit HDD-based audio has arrived folks and it is, as Alex put so succinctly, “f**cking incredible”.

Cheers.. jeffc

[clausdk]

Does it have to be a BRwriter or will the dampning also work on a normal cdrom ?

[Deleted]

Jun 5, 2009 14:23:56 GMT @clausdk said:

Does it have to be a BRwriter or will the dampning also work on a normal cdrom ?

clausdk

The dampening will work on all CD/DVD writers,but the actual amount of improvement will vary with different CD/DVD ROMS. You will still need to also dampen vibrations from adjacent fans and HDDs.
I used adhesive felt for that purpose.There is also some posted evidence that a good CD ROM will outperform a DVD ROM with normal CD playback. However good CD ROMS are now much harder to obtain, as they have been mostly replaced by DVD ROMs

SandyK

[Will]

This is very interesting, and exciting, stuff. I think most people here would agree that vibration damping/removal/isolation gives results, but if you are saying that you guys are getting even better results than I heard from the 'summertime' links, then that is phenomenal.

So, to get this right. You've ripped from CD using the blu-ray (using EAC), then re-burn to CD (a particular brand?) and then re-rip. This gives an improvement in the recording, due to the improved burning process of the blu-ray. You've then found a further improvement recording the CD to HDD, due to damping of the blu-ray player.

What happens if you damp the HDD?

I know at some point we hit diminishing returns, but as the HDD is the next 'large vibrating part' it would seem the ideal next candidate.

Thanks for sharing this with us, guys.

[jeffc]

Hi Will,

To answer your first query, YES I will be copying all my favourite CDs to CD-Rs using the BR writer before ripping to HDD (been using TDK Gold’s but I'm not that impressed with them so might do homework - if in the UK I'd get Prodisc Black as these and other black CD-Rs I've tried sound better). I use the copy software that came with the BR writer that allows copies down to x 4 speed but I think Alex uses EAC.

To answer your second query, YES the 3M tape-damped BR writer in Hi Fi speak takes it into Super Hi-End territory. Sound quality improvement is HUGE compared to BR-CDRs ripped as .wav files pre-damping.

HDD damping? That and the BR writer are exactly what the 3M damping foil was designed for. Last weekend I purchased a 1TB Samsung Stillpoint HDD and an Astone external case with eSATA connectivity as well as USB2. Internal case walls I liberally applied Blu-Tac, set it up on 1/4" wool felt on top of anti-slip grip mat that I also have the BR writer on. Desk completely free of detectable vibrations caused by either drive. The HDD is now also damped as extensively as I could do using the 3M tape with also some grip mat used internally in the case to try and isolate it further.

Does in sound better ? Here's my response to Alex who has also asked this Q in an email.

"Sorry but I don't really know and I'm not sure how you would A/B test this as once the HDD is wrapped its done. Could compare the same file copied to the laptop HDD but ideally the test would need 2 identical HDDs, one wrapped, one not.

Might also depend on how the .wav player software accesses the data, in big chunks moved into the main RAM or using a more frequent/steady disk access process.

One of those things to do as 'good in principle as all vibration isolation should be a good thing' if there's tape spare so that you can be content in the knowledge that if there are benefits to be had, however small, you've got them."

Now in saying that I also uploaded 'Spinning Wheel' ripped from a BR written CDR I made of his Blu-spec CR because it is quite phenomenal played back from my damped HDD using the XXHighEnd player (only Engine #1 with WinXP and I can't wait to try the Vista Engine #3 which is apparently in another league), brass and percussion sections so amazingly dynamic and sharp that I suggest he be careful or his ears might start bleeding. His assessment was that it was very close in SQ to his latest rip using his damped BR writer and undamped HDD so I just don’t know whether what I’m hearing has been influenced by my HDD damping or not.

Getting a bit carried away with this but it is a revelation, Jesus has risen, no joke.

Cheers.. jeffc

[Deleted]

Jun 5, 2009 18:07:59 GMT Will said:

This is very interesting, and exciting, stuff. I think most people here would agree that vibration damping/removal/isolation gives results, but if you are saying that you guys are getting even better results than I heard from the 'summertime' links, then that is phenomenal.

So, to get this right. You've ripped from CD using the blu-ray (using EAC), then re-burn to CD (a particular brand?) and then re-rip. This gives an improvement in the recording, due to the improved burning process of the blu-ray. You've then found a further improvement recording the CD to HDD, due to damping of the blu-ray player.

What happens if you damp the HDD?

I know at some point we hit diminishing returns, but as the HDD is the next 'large vibrating part' it would seem the ideal next candidate.

Thanks for sharing this with us, guys.

Will
I am not sure there are further advantages with the way Jeff did this over direct ripping with EAC and the 3M dampened BR writer and sound deadened PC front where all the drives are mounted.
IIRC, Jeff had to do it this way because he had put my Blu-spec disc back in the post , before he added the full bit 3M dampening.
Jeff could come back on this and clarify.
Alex

P.S.
Jeff does have a small further advantage in that his BR writer is mounted externally to the PC., but whether this gives further SQ improvements over what the 3M tape has given to the BR writers + PC dampening , has yet to be verified.There may very well be further small refinements coming.

[jeffc]

Hi Alex/Will,

My impressions from a while back comparing .wavs ripped from either BR written CD-Rs compared to the original CDs, using either the BR writer or my laptop DVD writer were

BR-BR > CD-BR >>> CD-DVD (disk-writer)

Maybe time to revisit this evaluation as most of what I have been listening to in the past few days, from rips done since 3M damping the drives, has been from CD-Rs I've made using the LG-BR writer.

I wonder whether the CD-Rs are also better quality after 3M damping? ;D Lots to still learn but at present I'm really keen to start filling this 1TB HDD with music, sound quality arready so far beyond what could be expected from CD format .wav files that the player must now be looked at as a limiting factor, not the stored medium.

cheers.. jeffc

PS .. and I should add that I have the external LG-BR writer sitting on some Herbie's Audio "baby booties' feet and the top mass loaded using a sand-filled zip-lock bag. ISOLATION GONE THE WHOLE HOG. ;D

[clint]

I can imagine what you guys are talking about, because i have done some inside damping before with bitumen in an old Iomega cd-rom with great results. I've done that a few years back - long before usb dac's - and when i posted that in another forum some guys called me crazy. Now i use a Plextor dvd writer and of course i'd done the same but this time i have also a much better comp power supply - which i think is essential - a more solid and heavy comp case, a few ferrite rings on some inside circuits and an independent electric circuit from the main electric board to the comp outlets with also an independent wire ground.
BTW, i also believe in black cd-r. Could be placebo, but as long as i think is better...i really don't care...

[jeffc]

Guys,

Here's some pics of my external LG-BR writer and HDD - damped and isolated, as well as the battery powered Trends UD10 USB-DAC with headphome out that most listening has been done with. The Bonzai Amp is there just in case I feel the need to burst my ear drums. ;D




cheers..jeffc

And clint, based on your experience.. maybe there is indeed quite a bit more to do to wrink the neck off of this with "electrical improvements" Good stuff!!

PS. And forgot the star of the show, the innocuous looking 3M Damping Foil Tape 2552. But now, where are the flowers. ;D

[clint]

Jun 5, 2009 22:29:03 GMT jeffc said:

Guys,

Here's some pics of my external LG-BR writer and HDD - damped and isolated, as well as the battery powered Trends UD10 USB-DAC with headphome out that most listening has been done with. The Bonzai Amp is there just in case I feel the need to burst my ear drums. ;D




cheers..jeffc

And clint, based on your experience.. maybe there is indeed quite a bit more to do to wrink the neck off of this with "electrical improvements" Good stuff!!

PS. And forgot the star of the show, the innocuous looking 3M Damping Foil Tape 2552. But now, where are the flowers. ;D

Very nice pics.
I must mention that one of the most important "upgrades" - at least in the low freqs - i have done in my comp system and in my main system was indeed an independent electric circuit from the main electric board with an indepedand ground wire and a good power cable from Supra.
Or...even better, one circuit for digital and another for analogue stuff.

[Deleted]

jeff

Is your DVD drive connected by USB or Esata?

I have BR writer in my PC at present but I have a USB writer that could take a transplant!

Thanks,

Syd