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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 12:54:41 GMT
I've attached (hopefully) a few pics of this tape applied to my HDD and BR DVD Ripper. I can certainly vouch for its vibration damping abilities, its very impressive. The pics also show how malleable it is, so easy to grip any part of a drive's surface even into 'dents'. Syd  Syd Certainly easy to use isn't it ? However, I doubt that you need to use anywhere near as much as you have used, as sometimes they attach just a strip to a washing machine's drum to help dampen vibration. I wouldn't have bothered with the sides, just the majority, but not quite all of the top and bottom. Jeff suggested ,that for the top, for example,you could use the full 2" wide strip along the middle, and cut another full width strip into 1" wide strips with scissors, and place on either side of the middle strip with a small space between each. Alex P.S. Don't forget with HDDs, not to cover any small holes in the top cover. Sometimes it says not to on the sticker. BTW, the effect of doing the other drives in a similar fashion appears to be additive. If the drives are internally mounted, don't forget to dampen the mounting frame area with the self adhesive felt for about AU$5 a 1 metre roll. |
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Will
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Post by Will on Jul 17, 2009 13:05:29 GMT
Nice clear pictures Syd! Makes it nice and obvious what you guys are doing. Also, you may have over-engineered it a bit, but at least you know that you wont have any problems with vibration!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 15:07:46 GMT
Remember when we used to stick blue-tak on the clamp and clamp arm of CD transports? (for mass and anti-vibration)
Would the tape offer any advantage applied here? Or even be practicle to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 16:00:04 GMT
Oh well, the rest of the roll will last longer!
Alex, I had forgotten about the small hole thing, which I encountered before, but it mustn't apply to this drive as it has worked fine since, luckily.
Syd
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 17, 2009 20:42:25 GMT
I have a large roll of butyl tape I got from these guys www.reddiseals.com/acatalog/glazing_tapes_butyl_sealant.htmlThis stuff will stick onto water (seriously, it's THAT good) you can roll it into a ball (like blu tack) and it is lovely and dense.... I just wonder if it would do much the same job (or better) than the 3M tape? I'm happy to send a metre of this gear to interested parties. I use it to damp my CD enclosure and it really does the job nicely... you can also form it into a little sticky ball and use underneath capacitors (when fitting them) this also has audible benefits. Anyways, just thought I'd throw this gear into the mix as it is truly amazing stuff (you just have to see and feel it to believe it!) Mike. |
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Post by gavmen on Aug 1, 2009 9:03:18 GMT
I was over at Alex's place on Monday and had the opportunity to hear the difference between the two files and there is no doubt in my mind, that there was a clear distinction between the two.
Not knowing the source or the headphones, Alex let me blind test the two songs (forgot the name of the songs! XD) and two files and the distinction between the one which had been ripped with the damped was better in all aspects.
Initially, as a computer person (computer building business), a science person(Engineer) and low-level audiophile, that the sound difference came from a possible increase to gain. However two things showed me that this was not the case. I think the best section to describe this was heard in the guitar solo in the second song, and the sound via the damped drive was so much more musical. And also through both songs that I listened to, separation between vocals and instruments was clearly more transparent.
The second change is similar when I change headphones from my Sennie 595's to my Audio Technica A-900's, with the Sennies having a very blurry midrange where as the A-900s have much better instrument/vocal distinction.
However this was a mere change in what, personally what I personally came to the conclusion of is that, the more precise blu-ray laser helps this cause and also the decreased level of jitter due to a) the 3M tape and b) the actual construction of the blu-ray drive is superior. These views are shared by Alex and myself, I think.
And there is no denying that the proof is definitely in the pudding.
There is nothing worse in this world that ignorance, and what do you have to lose from breaking free from traditional thought and just having a listen, that's what this hobby is all about. More to the point, closed narrow minded thought, destroys a forum community where if every new thought gets shot down, you lose valuable knowledge from ostracizing people and making them less free about sharing their experiences and then you lose in diversity, lose lose baby.
Some people are out there to make a buck from some tin-foil-hat shit like those linked in the first page, but I hardly think Alex is there to do that.
Cheers
Gav
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2009 9:54:32 GMT
Gavin
The 2 files that impressed you so much, were "Carly Simon- Your'e So Vain". They were ripped from the DVD-A "Carly Simon -No Secrets." The initial comparison file was ripped by the Pioneer DVD writer in 2008. The new version was ripped by the LG GGW-H20L BluRay writer after the drives were sound dampened by the 3M sound/vibration deadening tape,and the felt dampening on the sides of the metalwork supporting all the drives was also replaced by the 3M tape.
Both of these 24/192 .wav files had the same checksum :
2395b6d6c9bb67e045ff063b16a4e102
The thing that I find interesting, is that the differences seem to be even more pronounced with the higher resolution files.
Alex
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robertkd
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Post by robertkd on Aug 2, 2009 11:13:28 GMT
I have a large roll of butyl tape I got from these guys www.reddiseals.com/acatalog/glazing_tapes_butyl_sealant.htmlThis stuff will stick onto water (seriously, it's THAT good) you can roll it into a ball (like blu tack) and it is lovely and dense.... I just wonder if it would do much the same job (or better) than the 3M tape? I'm happy to send a metre of this gear to interested parties. I use it to damp my CD enclosure and it really does the job nicely... you can also form it into a little sticky ball and use underneath capacitors (when fitting them) this also has audible benefits. Anyways, just thought I'd throw this gear into the mix as it is truly amazing stuff (you just have to see and feel it to believe it!) Mike. other possibilities might include potting the DVD/blue ray drive in cement, yes I knew I'd find a use for "Postcrete"one day. Say one cubic foot (27ltr's) should dampen the drive quite nicely  Robert |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2009 11:28:42 GMT
Other possibilities might include locating a brain surgeon capable of opening an Engineer's closed mind, or perhaps sending him a few feet of the 3M 2552 tape to try for himself ? Alex |
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robertkd
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Post by robertkd on Aug 2, 2009 11:43:46 GMT
Other possibilities might include locating a brain surgeon capable of opening an Engineer's closed mind, or perhaps sending him a few feet of the 3M 2552 tape to try for himself ? Alex Alex, are you saying potting the drive in cement wouldn't dampen the mechanism ?? Robert |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2009 11:50:39 GMT
Not after it dried !  |
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robertkd
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Post by robertkd on Aug 2, 2009 12:34:32 GMT
Not after it dried ! Alex that's funny, you know you need to wrap the drive in plastic sealing where the cables lead away so that the unit is water proof. pot in cement so the drawer still opens i.e. the front is outside the cement, leave to dry and presto you a totally dampened drive. oh I get it, I stick the 3M tape material on my forehead to dampen my enthusiasm  Robert |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2009 12:53:21 GMT
Robert
No. I would be happy to send you some 3M tape if I was assured that it would be used for the intended purpose, and not in the garden or tool shed, or heaven forbid, stuck in a cupboard somewhere and forgotten.
Alex
P.S.
Unlike HDDs and Optical drives, the posting and downloading of .wav files to Filemail etc. does not appear to cause a deterioration in SQ of the posted .wav files. I believe this is in line with what you stated some time back ?
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rowuk
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Post by rowuk on Aug 2, 2009 15:09:51 GMT
B&W speakers proved that adding mass did not always move the resonance to a desirable frequency and that added mass usually means added storage of energy - naturally with dissapation at the "undesired" frequency. They ended up building a matrix loudspeaker enclosure, kept it light for low energy storage and moved the resonant frequency where it does no harm.
I think we need to look at where the real problem is and just maybe we can solve the problem instead of adding a mass bandaid. Maybe a dab of silicone caulking to some vulnerable mechanical part would provide the same result (or better)?
I have often thought that the tray itself essentially only supported by rails and a gear to be a big problem. A plastic disc rotating quickly at a fraction of an inch above it must cause some kind of static electrical phenomenon. If the tray vibrates, the disc will surely move. I need some self adhesive copper foil to ground that baby. Maybe a locking mechanism for the tray too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2009 21:40:57 GMT
rowuk
Unfortunately, as JeffC and myself have proved, the problem isn't just due to internal vibrations within the Optical device used for ripping. It is also due to susceptibility to external vibrations from fans and HDDs. Even dampening the case of the HDD where the music files are stored has been found to further improve playback from that drive,as well as improve the SQ of ripped files from the BR writer. In fact , dampening the cases of ALL HDDs and the normal DVD writer (if installed) appears to give a cumulative improvement,as does dampening the support metalwork where all the drives are mounted . The 3M tape is claimed to convert mechanical vibrations to heat, and a strip is sometimes even attached to washing machine drums to help dampen vibrations while in the spin cycle.
In Jeff's situation, he is using both his BR writer and "Audio" HDD with 3M dampening externally, as well as other additional anti vibration measures,such as special mounting feet etc. I have also tried using the existing Pioneer DVD writer after 3M dampening for CD ripping, both internally and externally in a suitably dampened enclosure. Although there are quite noticeable SQ improvements,it is still not in the same league as the LG BR writer, with it's superior anti-jitter regime, which would be essential when used with BR media.
Alex
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robertkd
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Post by robertkd on Aug 2, 2009 23:34:21 GMT
stop pussy footing around pot the drive in cement! and be done with it ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2009 0:02:13 GMT
stop pussy footing around pot the drive in cement! and be done with it ;D Robert I suppose you would then like me to drop the drive over the side of the Harbour Bridge? I could attach it to your legs first ? Alex P.S. Do you have a copy of "Dire Straits Love Over Gold" ? Are you interested in downloading the .wav files if it gets uploaded ? (415MB) |
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Post by hifijunkie on Aug 4, 2009 13:05:02 GMT
I was wondering about damping in a EHP 606. As it is, the EHP is pretty good sounding machine. The case is extremely rigid and the HDD is screwed on to a tray and the tray is crammed in the case. If SQ in a computer HDD is improved with this tape then probably damping in EHP might as welll improve SQ .
BTW did anyone try damping a CDP?? maybe a bit of tape in between the screws and chassis in the form of washers might improve SQ ..read it somewhere that squash balls cut into half and placed on the legs improves sound.
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Sol
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Post by Sol on Aug 4, 2009 13:39:39 GMT
P.S. Do you have a copy of "Dire Straits Love Over Gold" ? Are you interested in downloading the .wav files if it gets uploaded ? (415MB) So I had a good listen this morning Alex ... again ... irrefutable! I have the CD, and I ripped with my set up damped CD drive, EAC etc ... So I had my original rip (flac), new rip (wav), and yours (wav). The Private investigations track is the most revealing with the glass smash and background adds of the investigation being much better resolved. Also the fade out seems to last a good second longer with the quietest passages lasting longer. I also note that the stereo image seems better resolved with less position drift. It's a superbly produced album resolved incredibly well. What was also of note, is that my CD drive while damped is making a very subtle difference .. so I will continue with the exercise ... I'm about to probably go buy another computer - so I'm thinking about a solid state drive, and fanless option. We'll see. Anyhow ... for now ... thnaks again ... I've now got to consider my options ... wav format ... etc rerip all my CDs??? OMFG! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2009 21:41:17 GMT
P.S. Do you have a copy of "Dire Straits Love Over Gold" ? Are you interested in downloading the .wav files if it gets uploaded ? (415MB) So I had a good listen this morning Alex ... again ... irrefutable! I have the CD, and I ripped with my set up damped CD drive, EAC etc ... So I had my original rip (flac), new rip (wav), and yours (wav). The Private investigations track is the most revealing with the glass smash and background adds of the investigation being much better resolved. Also the fade out seems to last a good second longer with the quietest passages lasting longer. I also note that the stereo image seems better resolved with less position drift. It's a superbly produced album resolved incredibly well. What was also of note, is that my CD drive while damped is making a very subtle difference .. so I will continue with the exercise ... I'm about to probably go buy another computer - so I'm thinking about a solid state drive, and fanless option. We'll see. Anyhow ... for now ... thnaks again ... I've now got to consider my options ... wav format ... etc rerip all my CDs??? OMFG! Sol Glad you liked it. Can you afford to go the next step with your next computer, and fit a BluRay writer like the LG ? I expect that it would also be capable of making better normal DVDs,and that would also help future proof your PC with the ability to playback the increasingly common BluRay movies. Incidentally, I haven't even tried to burn a BluRay disc yet, although the only BluRay discs that I have so far, which is the TV series "Smallville Season 7", looks fantastic on my 24" Samsung monitor,and sounds very good too, and I can easily see why the leading ladies were selected. Alex |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2009 21:52:21 GMT
hifijunkie
I have sent you an email.
Alex
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Post by jeffc on Aug 9, 2009 2:10:00 GMT
\ Hey Robert, I'm not sure this is the best route to internal vibration damping of a CD/DVD/BR writer or a non-solid state HDD. Sure it might help protect them from macro vibrations generated by a Celwin-Vega speaker set-up, but any vibrations generated internally would be trapped rather than effectively dissipated. This is where the viscoelastic polymer of the 3M tape comes into its own by converting these vibrations into heat which is very effectively dissipated by the thin aluminium restraining layer. Reports are now coming in from folk other than myself and Alex who have tried damping with the 3M 2552 tape, or who have listened directly to Alex's pre- and post-damping .wav files, or to some of his .wav file uploads, where sonic improvements are preserved, suggesting we are on to A GOOD THANG . I've been playing with this 3M tape for a few years, used mainly for case damping, but also for damping PCBs directly where space is available, big film caps like Obbligato's, crystal clocks in DACs, and even the metal can LM45662HA opamp now in my Banzai CMOY amp, and invariably I've found it to be good s**t for micro vibration control to fully realize the potential of these parts and equipment. Take Alex up on his offer to test some of the tape, nothing too loose and might save you the hassle of mixing concrete. And juke, Nice 3M tape wrapping job mate, that LG BR write must feel nice and snug and warm at night  , any comments on SQ impressions of .wav files pre- and post-damping? cheers.. jeffc |
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Post by hifijunkie on Aug 10, 2009 6:38:29 GMT
hey guys, i tried to get this tape in India and seems like it is not availble....
Can anyone of you pack me a small roll of 2 to 3 meters for me ?? If yes, i would be happy to pay you in whatever means...
Cheers!
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Post by jeffc on Aug 15, 2009 1:13:33 GMT
And I thought I hadn't been that good ;D, but look what Santa dropped in early  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2009 1:27:51 GMT
And I thought I hadn't been that good ;D, but look what Santa dropped in early Jeff Are you able to spare enough for hifijunkie, who is wanting to buy 10 foot or thereabouts ? I have already given away some, and promised 4 or 5 others some already ! I don't want to run out of this magic stuff !!! Alex |
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, any comments on SQ impressions of .wav files pre- and post-damping?