Upgrades beyond the Rock Grotto for the X-10v3?

[simba00000]

Hi all,

I will have a X-10v3 coming to me soon. I already ordered the Rock Grotto upgrade kit and heatsink kit. Next month I will also be building a overkill isolated PSU to support three X-10v3 (or X-v3 components). Since I will be inside the X-10v3 anyway, has anyone found "any other" upgrades or tweaks sonically worthwhile?

I am referring to upgrading resistors, wiring from the PCB to the output RCA jacks, RCA jacks, dampening the PCB, adding Jensen output transformers, specific designs for power cable to the external PSU, etc. Thanks in advance for any input in this area

Best Regards,

Chris

[simba00000]

Wow, nothing? No one on this forum has experienced any positive tweaks, upgrades or mods beyond the Rock Grotto upgrades for the X-10v3? I am surprised.

I just received the X-10v3 and it was as advertised, like new inside and out. I fired it up with the stock wall wart and let it warm up for a couple of hours. In my upstairs office system it was too bright. But with a upgraded Grado RA-1 headphone amp and a pair of Grado RS-2 cans the improvement is excellent. I am listening to the cans now. ) What is surprising is that I am using an external DVD-Burner from my computer for a transport and my sound card for the DAC. I have not hooked this unit to any serious gear yet. But I can see why these units are so widely sought after for upgrading and tweaking.

*** This is what I noticed so far:

* The PSU is a joke, this you all already know. So has to be changed. I just ordered a 100VA Toroid and the parts to rig up a beefier PSU to see what this does. I know a couple of knowledgeable people that know designs of tube gear well and are masterful with power supplies and line conditioning. They already gave me many suggestions, I just have to experiment.

* I was disappointed in the chassis, the whole thing rings like crazy. Lightly tapping the front or rear panel and the circuit board pings and moves! This is definitely one area that should be improved on. I will work on this once the new PSU is built and tweaked. I will probably change the chassis out for a custom Maple wood case, keeping the front and back panels. A would bet dampening the circuit board from the loose metal rails that support the circuit board will yield sonic benefits. Especially in a non headphone setup. I am not going to need to do this, but if I kept the stock chassis, using dampening material like EAR-C1002 for dampening the circuit board from the rails. Dampening the rest of the chassis should also assist sonically.

* A good power cord from the new (non wall wart) PSU will also make a difference. I will experiment here. Already ordered the connectors.

* A well designed power cord for the PSU to the wall "should" help also. Although the changes may or may not be subtle. I have many nice aftermarket power cords to experiment with.

* As soon as the Rock Grotto Kit from Mike arrives, its getting installed.

* Footers. I have tons to experiment with. Spending just a few mins I can tell the stock ones deaden, slows and goofs with the PRAT. Footers are tough until I get to hear the end product. I can tell that this unit is very sensitive to what touches it. Even gently lifting the unit changes the presentation.

* Copper RCA jacks should warm up and increase midrange depth. Not sure this is a worth while upgrade yet because it will not be inexpensive. I need to hear the unit with the new PSU, cap and diode upgrade first.

* The internal signal wire will be a inexpensive upgrade.

* I would love to change that mickey mouse DIN power connector to a better (and higher power handling) copper connector, but we will see. I do not want to modify the back panel.

* The unit does not seem to get more then luke warm. I am thinking it may get hot once more juice is available to it. So it may need ventilation in the new chassis.

For now that is all I can think of. Would appreciate any shared experiences with any tweaks, upgrades, mods or comments on the above mentioned.

Best Regards,

Chris

[Deleted]

Chris
Seeing nobody else so far has chipped in , I will make the following general observations.Sound deadening is worthwhile. When used with speakers, better feet/isolation is also worthwhile. Copper RCA jacks ? Only if you have money to throw around !
Internal signal wiring ? Very minor gains. Mike's upgrade kit? Biggest bang for buck.
Beefier external PSU ? Always worthwhile, BUT it should be a similar voltage output, so there will be no increase in temperature or current draw. Just the benefits of a low impedance supply. Don't forget Mike's tweak of a suitable mains rated capacitor across it's IEC socket.
Nice aftermarket power cords ? Only if you have money to throw around. Gains will be minimal, although a shielded mains cable . as Mike described in a recent construction project, may be better value.

O.K. , glowing bottle brigade, this unashamedly solid state guy, has his flame proof flak jacket on.

SandyK

[simba00000]

I would like to express that I do appreciate your response SandyK. My main hobby now (and has been for over 7 years) is experimenting with high end audio. I am a diehard tweaker. I can also be considered an audiophile. Yes I have a goofy expensive main rig which is used for my main HT and music system. This may explain why I am not that phased by spending a few hundred or more on a piece of gear, tweak, etc. if it will improve the main rig. Hence this tube buffer experiment...

When I first started dabbling in this hobby there were many things that sounded and felt absurd and totally not logical. After experimenting for kicks and out of curiousity, I found that just about everything makes a difference. Especially to the overall synergy of a system. hi-fi to ultra-fi gear is very sensitive to tweaking and upgrades. Mid-fi is also, just not as sensitive. My components are very sensitive to footers and to a certain degree anything on top of the components. I use footers and tone wood (purple heart, Gaboon Ebony, maple, etc) to tune my system or a particular component. VansEvers awhile back wrote a paper on this topic that is excellent called, " the Art and Science of Audio System Tweaking". You can view/download his paper here: www.vansevers.com/pdffiles/tweaking.pdf

Anyways, I have to get ready for work. I am looking for any ideas or proven tweaks for this X-10v3 unit. Nothing is too wild!

Peace out... Chris

[Deleted]

simba00000
Now that you have stated the quality of the ancillary equipment, my advice can be more specific. I do agree that with high end equipment,even the smallest changes become audible. The further that you refine your equipment, it seems the easier it is to hear these minute changes.
So my recommendation would be to forget the tube buffer stage, or ANY kind of external buffer stage, and try to address the deficiency in the equipment that performs better with the buffer stage. One of the avenues you could explore is the fitting of a Burson discrete output stage to the CD/DVD player, for example. You obviously understand the small improvements that can be obtained with the use of quality connectors and their impedance matching and lower loss benefits, so why insert an additional short length of cable , an extra couple of connectors ,and another active stage with it's further reduction in bandwidth and S/N in line ?
I am not knocking the use of buffer stages where the original component can not be readily improved, as I used an external buffer stage myself for improved results, then replaced it with a discrete buffer stage and opamp comination ,in my old ,heavily modified Marantz CD 65.
I am presently using a SVHS switchbox with a very good wideband buffer stage built in, and the improvement in video quality is quite marked. So, yes, a decent buffer stage can usually give further improvements, but as I said, it is always best to try and remedy the problem at the source.
SandyK

[mrarroyo]

I have a mid to low end system. The use of the modded X-10 V3 has provided me w/ a wider soundstage, more bass impact, and an overall "sweetness" to the presentation. Kind of taking the edge of the hard SS edge.

My sources are either an X-DAC V3 or an Arcam DiVA CD73.

[Deleted]

Miguel
I am merely stating that with a high end system , it should not be necessary (or desireable) to introduce a buffer of any kind in line. As Chris seems willing to spend money to improve the overall performance of his better than average system, I feel that he should spend the money where he will obtain the highest performance ,without compromising the ultimate resolution that he has at his disposal already.
Alex

[simba00000]

Hi, SandyK

I understand what you are saying. And I fully understand that a tube buffer stage is not a high end tube pre-amp. They are two totally different pieces of gear. My system now sounds pretty good, seven years of continues modding, tweaking and experimenting. I like this hobby, it is fun, interesting and have met many knowledgable people in person and online. I also have the concern of the added stage, connectors cabling etc. Even though I spare no expense when it comes to these needed accessories, I do prefer less in the signal chain. I have audiophile friends that swear up and down that adding a tube "pre-amp" to channels in a nice SS system is worth while. I have other friends that think I am nuts.

I have been wanting to introduce/experiment with tubes on my main system for awhile now. But have been addressing other areas. As mentioned before, this really is an experiment. If I do not like what this buffer (once it is all tricked out) does in my main rig, I will set it up with my headphone setup. I also have a spare Proceed CDD transport and Proceed DAP (DAC) that I can mate up with this Buffer and the Grado RA1 amp and Grado RS-2 headphones in my home office. All the cables I use I match up to the gear based on audible synergy. This should make a kick ass headphone setup!

Anyways, now that you have a better idea of what I am used to, I am looking to take this little X-10v3 as far as it will go. I can see certain areas that need attention and have already ordered what I need (dampening, Mike's upgrade kit, PSU parts). As a avid tweaker, I have many spare parts lying around, like different high end wire (Cardas 5N silver, 14K gold, JPS Allumiloy, 6N Copper, etc.). So what wire have you tried that gave the best sonic returns? If something will take the unit up a notch, I am interested. I will deal with the funds or cost. Heck I may find something that is worth sharing with others on this forum! )

In the spirit of this forum, lets share and all learn.

Kindest Regards,

Chris

[Deleted]

Chris
To be honest, I don't go in for fancy internal wiring. To me it is just like Graham Slee said in another recent post about special cables being used to correct for perceived deficiencies elsewhere. I prefer to use good old fashioned attention to detail, and selected and matched devices in my amplification. It's more about extracting the maximum out of a design without a lot of expensive gimmicks and tweaks that are so beloved of many people.
Like Graham, I believe that it is the actual circuit design and selection of components that is paramount. BTW, I am not into ultra expensive capacitors and resistors either. I do use metal film resistors, but they are checked for tolerance , and matched in both channels. I also do the same with semiconductors in both channels.
Alex
SandyK

[XTRProf]

Hi Chris,

Welcome to this forum which I like very much due to the friendliness of the people here. We are registered "blood brothers" for Nov 2007. May I contribute my 0 cent worth regarding what you have on hand.

While I do agreed with Alex that the ultimate goal of any AV or Hifi system should be designed to be as faithful to the original signals as possible, I differ from that view after that. And here's why.

1) There is no ultimate agreement as to what is accurate. But there is ultimate agreement as to what each like for themselves in almost all forums on things AV or Hifi.

2) Even if there is a supposed ultimate "accurate" sound of real live intruments, vocal or any thing that can make noise (you know to me hip hop and Linkin' Park are noise but early Depeche Mode, Eric Clapton, Stevie Ray Vaughan (SRV), Nat King Cole, etc, etc are music) which method do we judge accuracy of "accurate" musical instruments, etc, etc? Please take note of this qoute from referenced link.

20.9 Why do people disagree on what is the best sound?


There are at least three different measures of what is "Perfect Sound". All three have advocates, and all three are right, in their own way. In general, whether they admit it or not, most listeners fit into one of these three preference groups:

1. It must sound like live music. These people know what voices sound like in person, they know what instruments sound like without any amplification, and they have heard orchestras perform unaided by sound systems. They want to accurately reproduce that sound.

2. It must sound like the recording engineer wanted it to sound. The recording engineer listened with extremely good equipment to the sound coming out of the microphones, and mixed them together for what he, at that time, felt was artistically correct. It may not have been the same as live, but it was exactly what he wanted. In the extreme, people like John Fogerty used to audition his final recording mix in his truck to see how it would sound through a common, lousy stereo.

3. It must give me the most pleasure. No matter how good or bad live sounds, no matter what the recording engineer intended, if buy some equipment will give me more listening pleasure then it must be the best.

With these three perspectives, it is clear that no one system will satisfy everyone. Add to that confusion the variable that everyone likes a different kind of sound, has heard live music under different conditions, and has a different idea of what the engineer intended. There is an enormous range of possibilities.

Another set of reasons is that people look for different things to be right. Some want strong bass; others want male voices to sound like male voices; others want violins to sound like violins. Systems rarely do everything equally well. Speakers (in particular) are compromises. Look for the speaker where the designer had your priority first. You are perfectly right to select speakers based on YOUR personal taste.

Confounding the situation further, we all say the greatest things about the stuff we already bought. To do otherwise would be to admit that we are either stupid or deaf.

Still another reason is that most people haven't heard enough variations. Until you hear a system that can truly reconstruct the three-dimensional accuracy of a stereo image accurately, you may never realize that it is possible. Some excellent recordings contain enough information that with a good enough system, you can hear up-down, in-out, and left-right distinctions very clearly. However, we will never experience this until we are fortunate enough to hear such a fine recording on a very good system.

Finally, some of us really can't hear much difference. We aren't deaf, but we don't have a well trained ear, don't know exactly what to listen for, and may even have slight hearing deficiencies, such as bad sensitivity to high frequencies which comes with older age, or hearing damage from listening to loud sounds (machinery, rock concerts, etc).

Reference: www.faqs.org/faqs/AudioFAQ/part13/


3) Because of (1), tweaking to what you like is agreeable by me and most. So do tweak with whatever means, whether thru X-10 V3, cables (cheapo, mid or hiend stuffs), etc, etc.


As to all you have suggested for tweaking, ya, there will be a difference, But are those to your expectation? This only you can tell. Theoretically, it should CHANGE the sound. But BETTER is a relative word that nobody can chip in to say, ya, that's better. Your poison may be my music and vice versa. We can only say IMVHO only. So here are IMVHO on tweaks.

1) Ya, the wallwart PSU is a joke. But so is the MF X-PSU V3 after my nightmare with it. See my thread on my problem with it. Please do let us know how your new 100VA toroidal sounds. That's the same route that I'm contemplating as well. You are paralleling for 3 outputs, right? Btw, I'm thinking along the line of a 300VA toroidal. Still planning but nothing yet. ;D

2) Ya, I like the idea of dampening the chassis to reduce tube microphony. Perhaps, can also add a screen around the tubes to give a blacker black background.

3) Ya, PCs do make a difference but not to the same degree as changing the parts in the X-10 V3. I will do that last.

4) Footers may improve things but not by the same degree you might expect after deamping the chassis.

5) The copper RCAs is also another good idea but the supplied brass ones with the X-10 V3 are already a very good set. So may not get the same expectation as you hope to when you changed to Cu type. Also, the signal going to be distorted by the RCAs are just too short to be of concerned here. So I don't think you will hear the difference.

6) Internal wires upgrade is definitely a YES, YES. Go for UP-OCC copper stuffs if possible. If you like a brighter sound then the UP-OCC silver. The latter is not my favourite.

7) The power DIN plug change is unlikely to make a difference.

8) The heat build up in the X-10 will be a concerend if you left it on indefinitely as recommended by MF. But then it's still only luke warm. Anyway, I'm sure not many will leave it on all the time due to the shortening of the 6112 tube life when not listening. Well, if you are the purist and have the mulla to offer, I'm not stopping you.

9) It seems fusing the PSU gives a better livelike sound, on top of protecting the unit, compared to unfused. Unfused from memory gave a more digital sound from my X-Dac V3. But take it with a pinch of salt. But since, you asked for any idea, I had laid down my cards here. Not ace cards, btw, for this as YMMV.

[Deleted]

XTRProf
To me , the goals are simple, but elusive.
1.Lowest possible distortion , combined with highest possible signal to noise ratio. Ambience is usually at a very low level, and system noise, as well as crossover distortion in semiconductor
amplification, compromises the recovery of this delicate information.
2.Widest possible bandwidth, so that the integrity of the harmonic structure is maintained. Retaining much higher order harmonics than is normally achieved, will assist with identifying the individual sounds of different voices and instruments, as well as the "air" around the voices and instruments.
3.Highest possible channel separation, combined with very accurate level tracking between channels. A good attenuator, will not only assist in this regard, it will also help to ensure wider bandwidth, provided the system is optimised. When you use a good quality attenuator, you will also normally be able to hear musical detail that you may not have noticed previously. Sometimes, at a lower listening level than previously,as well.
Separation between instruments and voices will also be further enhanced. It's a little like removing a veil.
Accuracy is the end result of all these steps.
The interesting thing about achieving this, is that you often need to turn up the volume a little , as the overall sound level will seem lower. Conversely, you are able to listen at a lower volume than usual, without missing fine detail.The dynamic range will also seem much better. The overall result is a more transparent presentation, and a natural warmth, combined with a far less
fatigueing sound.

You do not need to have a trained ear to appreciate the difference, it will be immediately apparent to the majority of people. It is just easier to listen to, even with Television sound, as it will sound more natural.

"Still another reason is that most people haven't heard enough variations. Until you hear a system that can truly reconstruct the three-dimensional accuracy of a stereo image accurately, you may never realize that it is possible. Some excellent recordings contain enough information that with a good enough system, you can hear up-down, in-out, and left-right distinctions very clearly. However, we will never experience this until we are fortunate enough to hear such a fine recording on a very good system."

A prerequisite for the experience mentioned above , is a combination of the steps that I mentioned above. Accuracy ?

"Finally, some of us really can't hear much difference. We aren't deaf, but we don't have a well trained ear, don't know exactly what to listen for, and may even have slight hearing deficiencies, such as bad sensitivity to high frequencies which comes with older age, or hearing damage from listening to loud sounds (machinery, rock concerts, etc)."

As I said previously, the differences are normally immediately obvious to those who have heard such a system.
The system that achieves this goal may use either semiconductor, or valve technology, however it is much harder to achieve this with valve technology, without considerably more expense.
Rickcr42 mentioned recently, that people with damaged hearing, may be often better able to detect missing high frequencies, or other presentation errors. My personal experience is that the better the performance of a system is, the easier it is for people with damaged hearing to appreciate their music.Close coupling to the ears with high quality headphones will also make up for much of the hearing loss / damage.

It has also been my experience, that the higher quality amplifiers, be they headphone amplifiers, or loudspeaker amplifiers, have a remarkable "family" type tonal balance, varying mainly in the ultimate resolution of very high quality material.

However, to each his own. If you prefer floorboard shaking bass, or female voices that sound very different, yet seductive, that is where tweaking, and the choice of different types of speakers or headphones has it's place.

SandyK

[XTRProf]

Hi Alex,

I'm not saying what you had written are wrong. There is every truth in them if taken from an engineering point of view. However, most people do not take these into consideration. Most will only go for the sound as the FINAL arbitrator.

For example, a Hifi system may be with the best technical specs that could be achieved but as long as they sound "shitty" to them, that's it. By right, there should be alignment but somehow it's not to them. I still remember once the great dcs technical team once said, mathematically and technically there was no additional data to be had from the CD on upsampling, but somehow they did hear the difference on repeated insistence from audiophiles and now their upsampling dacs are offered to audiophiles as well that are meant initially for the pro studios.

Another analogy is a sports car like a Ferrari. To those technically inclined, this will be the best that money could buy. But I can tell you, most once in that car will said that it is hell of a car to drive. Hell in the sense that it's so difficult to drive and not wow it takes the breathe out fo me when driving. These included those who had owned them before and most of them are now back into highend Mercedes.

Another example, is in a badminton racket. An all one piece racket is technically superior to one with a joint at the handle area. Also, a egg shaped stringed area is technically worst then the shape as once used in the Prince racket. But most professional players preferred the egg and joined rackets over the technically superior rackets as those win them matches. Ya, I remember also the once great Swede Bjorn Borg liked wooden rackets over the technically superior exotic metal tennis rackets as those won him matches and championship titles.

A final example of the day is in the electric guitar amp. Technically the solid state ones will walk circles round the valve ones. But how many pro players used that? Again, the valve amp sounds better to them then the technically superior SS. Also, electric guitars sound are supposed to be distortiions. Yet, followers of this genre loved them. Might as well go back to pure distortionless classical guitar technically. Ya? Yes, I know that's crazy but that's life after all after the specs. I also wished for specs and real life convergence. As much as I wished for that, but in most cases, it's a divergence. I don't want this misalignment as well. It's just not right. Just like a murderer going scott free on technicality. But any good cop, will know and smell a rat!

Anyway, good views from your side of the coin and I do take them at face value, btw. Thanks for that.

[Deleted]

"For example, a Hifi system may be with the best technical specs that could be achieved but as long as they sound "shitty" to them, that's it. By right, there should be alignment but somehow it's not to them. I still remember once the great dcs technical team once said, mathematically and technically there was no additional data to be had from the CD on upsampling, but somehow they did hear the difference on repeated insistence from audiophiles and now their upsampling dacs are offered to audiophiles as well that are meant initially for the pro studios."

XTRProf
Too true!
On a better system, there is often a clear improvement to be had by upsampling. People may think that Mobile Fidelity use CDs with a gold reflective layer just so that they command a higher price. Wrong ! A high quality CD will often have a bigger soundstage, and sound a little better, if the original is ripped by EAC and the resulting .wav file burned to a CD-R such as the Kodak 24 Karat Archival discs.
Many forum members will disagree with my assertion that on a high resolution sytem, a CD that is converted to .flac., and then reconverted to .wav, with the result burned to a quality CD-R may sound clearly inferior to the original CD on a higher quality system.
A couple of my friends can testify to this.
Even a solid state Class A amplifier with actual distortion only measurable by digital oscilloscope techniques, which are capable of nulling out the low level system noise, can have an almost 2 dimensional performance, despite very impressive specifications. Indeed, the amplifier designs by the renowned technical author, Douglas Self, have occasionaly been referred to as bland and unexciting. (or other less complimentary phrases) There are however, other techniques to transform them into giving a more 3D presentation
SandyK

[XTRProf]

Hi Alex,

Here we are in convergence. Thank God for some sanity whether technically or subjectively.

I did also hear what you had just said. That's why we have K2 XRCD, XRCD2, XRCD24bit and the up and coming K2 HD (from 100KHz and 24 bit masters) CD from JVC. All are CD formats with much pain put into their manufacture as well as mastering for the K2 HD. But clearly, the XRCDs are superior to the normal CDs of the same titles. Btw, according to JVC, after much research (not sure whether subjective or real technical research), they found that Al surface is better than Gold or even Cu in their literature if you buy an XRCD. Bit for bit there may not be any difference between the CRC code. But clearly there is a difference and people who are not able to smell a rat will say we are crazy technically. Also, the upsampling is clearly superior as well when heard. Also, in Singapore, we have Hugo LPCD45 done with remastered analog master tapes and burnt onto studio CDR stocks. You know the types used when studios sent their mastering to the CD plants to press. Sorry, these are mostly none English type but the sound I can assure you is just fantastic. Different sound but clearly in the same league as the XRCD. K2 HD, I had not heard, btw.

For CDRs, do try the black colour ones. They do sound better then the normal ones. Do that if you can and see what's your view. It's a hot favourite in the Singapore audio scene. Let's see what's your opinion on this. Again, technically, bit for bit, the same when recorded on normal and black CDRs yet the blackie is subjectively superior.

[simba00000]

Hi XTRP

Please feel free to say anything, I analize everything and nothing offends me...lol I absolutely agree with everything that is said by both you and Sandyk. This hobby is very subjective. When I get together with a friend or someone I know that is a diehard audiophile the conversations are extremely diverse (and lengthy!). BUT, there is so much that can be shared, especially ideas. I am in this hobby because I love music when it sounds beautiful, or when it moves me emotionally. Even the fun that is had when a movie is watched and the experience so immersive and involving, like you are there. I love to tweak because I like to tinker and learn... also the hobby is safe and WAF is high. Unfortunately when I listen to a system that sounds way wrong or bad to my ears, I do not like it... really too bad for me, but it is what it is.

What I have learned to do is have an open mind when it comes to any type of change in regards to audio. The minimalist route is logical, but does not always prove to be the most pleasing to me. I have learned that everything matters in some way. Sometimes a small change will yield huge gains, or barely audible. Sometimes the change is not audible or can produce negative effects. Two simple examples:

* I figured I would not even bother inserting this X-10v3 into my main rig until it is fully modded and the PSU changed. Parts for the mods and PSU are in the mail. So while testing the X-10v3 with cans I wanted to see how sensitive the unit was to footers. The X-10v3 and RA-1 amp are on a symposium platform on top of a damped flexi rack. Pulled out my box full of almost every kind of footer that one can think of. I tried only the following under the X-10v3... three purple heart pyramid footers (this sounded really bad), three brass and gaboon ebony cones I designed, using purple heart disks (better then the original X-10v3 rubber footers by a slight margin), three Purple heart disks (really nice improvement in the lower to mid midrange frequencies, also more defined and punchier mid bass), Alluminum roller blocks (tad too bright for my tastes, but did improve imaging a tad and increased width and depth of soundfield). I just duplicated what I did the other night and this is what I just heard. The differences were easily audible and is such a nice and easy way to tune a component. Also I just placed three purple heart pyramids under the RA-1....nice, quieter background, relaxes and enriches the presentation!

* This will sound absurd, so get ready for this... By changing solder used, for example Cardas Quad Eutectic vs WBT and say with four solder joints in a outboard X-over or a driver in a speaker, can be heard in my main system! Depends where the solder joint is, the audible impact to the system could be negligible, to slight, to, "no way, change that!". No kidding here either.

The 100VA toroid that is going to be used with the X-10v3 is going to be for a single output/v3 component. I called a US toroid manufacturer's engineer and after about a 30 min phone conversation I have decided to give each of the X-10v3 units (that is if I decide to proceed with multiple units in my main rig) its own toroid. The reason is better isolation. According to the engineer, yes you can just tap off of the single 12v-0-12v ouput. Here are the considerations:

* A toroid can be custom built with multiple 12v-0-12v outputs like the Musical Fidelity X-PSUv3. Again isolation will be better with seperate toroids. Since I am looking for ultimate performance, I have ruled this option out.

* Large toroid and tap off of the single 12v-0-12v ouput to end up with multiple 12v-0-12v outputs. This is the least expensive route, this is the pro. I have to simplify the cons, I understood the conversation with the engineer, but I am not able to verbally express the technical aspects. Simply put, sonically this is the least advisable route because of crosstalk, sorry this is the best I can do to explain our conversation.

* Toroid for each v3 component: Using a overkill (and the 100VA for this application is overkill) good quality toroid, the toroid will be dead silent, run cool and run idle even when the v3 component is running full throttle. Best Isolation possible. The engineer did not even recommend shielding the toroid. He says that the toroid will not be worked and the leakage will be too negligable. Either way, I will experiment with TI-Shield grounded to earth to see if shielding matters or not. This is the way I will go.

Now if this works out, I will take it one step further. I will ask Alan Maher, the man I know to be a guru with power supplies to help me with this project. The problem is that Alan knows I am anal retentive with quality and his way is generally the best way....unfortunately it is the expensive way! His ideas sometimes scare me, but always turn out as he says. Right now he is on a Springsteen tour and will not be back until around X-mas. If you like I will let you know how this toroid experiment turns out. I will have the experimental PSU up and running in a week, waiting for the toroid. I have a few other ideas to tweak it, but need to try them.

Chris

[Deleted]

Chris
Individual toroids would be my preferred route too. But it would also depend on how many items were powered up at the same time. I doubt that you will notice any improvement by using 100VA toroids. I think 30VA is probably about optimum in this application. It should be possible to squeeze 4 x 30/50VA toroidal transformers into a suitable case without any problems. Don't forget individual slow blow fuses of suitable rating (as recommended by the manufacturer) on the primary sides of each transformer. 3 pin Cannon type lockable sockets for each output is probably worthwhile, in conjunction with home made 3 pin Cannon to 3 pin DIN type leads. (screened if possible)
SandyK

[Deleted]

XTRProf
Have you ever tried the 24 Karat gold DVDs for recording music video using LPCM originally?
I "resampled" a " making of" music DVD which came with a deluxe Norah Jones CD, from 48KHZ 16 Bit LPCM to 48KHZ 24 bit LPCM, and it sounds fabulous. Given my experiences with the reburning to a 24 karat gold CDR (using EAC for a bit perfect copy) I am wondering how much would be gained by doing the same with higher resolution material.
SandyK

[simba00000]

I hear what you are saying bro. John (the toroid engineer) told me 50VA would do it. He said 30VA would also but the 50VA sonically could be better. Since the 100VA cost only a tad more then the 50VA, I went that route. To be able to fit 3-4 toroids in a package approx. the size of the original I was also thinking 50VA. If all goes well, I am going to look to my buddy Alan to see where this PSU project goes. Again, this is all assuming that after the experimental PSU and Rock Grotto upgrades are in place I like this unit.

Fusing was discussed and accounted for, all set. As for the connections between the PSU and X-10v3, I will use a Neutrik Powercon on the PSU side and Neutrik 3-pin DIN to match the X-10v3 input.

The interconnecting power cable is the tricky part and should make a difference, just not sure how much of a difference at this point. I have many options and ways I can go. Since the connectors are dirt cheap, I have ordered enough that I can make up a few different designs and compare. There are 3 conductors in the cable, not including the shield. If a shield is incorporated in the power cable design, the shield will be grounded to earth at the PSU end. I am thinking a tri-braid geometry, using 3-15ga XLO 6N copper conductors. A shield may hurt sonics with this design instead of help. Although I do have copper shielding I can experiment with. I also have many snap-on ferrites on hand, ERS paper and Shakti On-Lines I can experiment with. On-hand is also some good fiberglass sleeving (helps a bit with EMI). When I first started this thread I was curious if anyone has found a good cable geometry for this application, so I did not have to start from scratch. I have never built a 24V power cable. Have you found any effective geometries for a cable in this application?

Power cable from the PSU out I have many good aftermarket power cords I can try.

Thanks, Chris

[simba00000]

I have not yet tried either of the 24 Karat gold CD-R CDs or DVDs yet. For CDs I currently use the Memorex black CD-R. So far this has been the best for me. I just built an external drive rack using all external drives for burning attached to a computer I use only for burning. This external drive array has its own customized isolated power source. I have seen these gold CDs advertised in a mailer from Music Direct. How do they compare to black CDs?

Chris

[Deleted]

Chris
I suggested the 30/50VA mainly on what could be readily fitted into a not too expensive case.
Another reason was that , locally at least, the readily available toroidal transformers seem to jump fro 50 to 160, then 300VA. I don't use anything more than 7.5A or 10A 3 core mains lead for the connecting leads. The X-DAC V3 for instance, has at the power input end, a couple of 100nF capacitors to earth, which should clean up any residual crap, in what will normally be relatively short leads. I only suggested the shielded cable as you desire to "go for broke"
Snap-on ferrites may be worthwhile, but my suggestion would be to try and keep all powered components as close as possible to the PSU. If you have the requisite experience of mains wiring in a suitable case, why don't you fit a 10A IEC socket to the case, an aluminium base plate to mount the transformers on if using a non metal case, and an insulated DPDT mains switch to the front panel, as wellas the 4 output sockets. If you are able, try to leave room for a small dual regulated PSU board(+ and -15V) and then at a later date you could replace one of the transformers with a 15-0-15VAC type to power it. The X-DAC V3 will work without modification off such a supply , and this leaves the way open to further modifications.If you have a look at the Jaycar website-Kit section, you will see the kind of unit I have in mind.
You can get alternatives elsewhere too, but usually at a considerably higher price.
Why rely on your friendly adfvisor ? Surprise him (and yourself) I fyou do it properly, you will be able to change things around a little later.
SandyK

[Deleted]

Chris
I had a bad experience with black CDRs some years ago, so I haven't tried them since. If I see any of those Memorex around I will certainly try them. I only tried the Kodak 24Karat gold "300 year Archival " discs recently after seeing them in my local Woolworths Supermarket for around AU$5 each (now $5.99 !) So I bought 2 out of curiosity, and copied our Test Disc and "Papa Doo Run Run-California Project" onto them. I was blown away by the improvement.
Alex

[simba00000]

Oh those 24K Kodak disks, Walmart sells those locally for like $1 each. Ok, next time I see them I will try them. I thought you were referring to the MOBILE FIDELITY - ULTRADISC 24K GOLD that Music Direct sells. Maybe made by Kodak?

You are right, I do want to "go for broke", why halfway do it, if I do not have to. Remember hobby, tinker and fun? Shields on power cords are a mixed bag, really depends on the cable design and usage. I will try it both ways. Here is the plan for the quick experimental PSU:

* 8" x 6" x 3" ABS enclosure with a 3/4" maple base. 100VA toroid will sit on the base. I want to test the toroid with the maple for timbre. Usually toroid + maple + brass footers has a bit more natural timbre then aluminum or other metals. Non magnetic bolt and nut will be used for the toroid.

* Jena Labs cryoed brass with silver plated IEC panel mount. I have this laying around. Final product will have a Furutech copper FI-09 IEC (sonically the best I have ever heard).

* Neutrik Powercon output to X-10v3 - these are good quality PRO gear locking plugs

* Panel mount fuse holder with 1.5amp fuse

* I have been looking for a good DPST switch. I have a SPST 10amp switch which I will probably use for this experiment

* Ground post for shielded power lead to X10-v3 option

* Many filtering and shielding options will be experimented with

This will be a tweak and listen, tweak and listen project. Mike told me via email that he was going to mail me the upgrade kit Monday, hopefully I will get it in the next week and a half. Once the upgrade kit is in and PSU tweaked a bit "and" I like it enough....it gets inserted into the main HT/music rig. If I do not like X-10v3 in my main system the buffer stays with the headphones. If I like it, I ask my buddy Alan for assistance on the main all out PSU to supply multiple outputs. The reason I ask Alan is because he is a guru with AC power and power supplies. I call him "Jedi Master". He sets up a design then tells me how to tweak it. He actually tells me in advance what is going to happen and is almost always spot on. It is up to me if I like the results sonically.

Wait a minute, you said, "The X-DAC V3 for instance, has at the power input end, a couple of 100nF capacitors to earth". Do you mean capacitors wired to neutral (coming from PSU) or to the X-DAC-v3's chassis? There isn't a earth ground coming from either of the wall wart or X-PSUv3. Unless I missed something (please let me know if I did!) By earth ground I mean a copper rod stuck outside your home. Does earth ground mean something different in other countries?

Chris

[Deleted]

Chris
I should have said 0 Volts,to avoid confusion
Alex.

[XTRProf]

simba00000 said:

Hi XTRP

Please feel free to say anything, I analize everything and nothing offends me...lol I absolutely agree with everything that is said by both you and Sandyk. This hobby is very subjective. When I get together with a friend or someone I know that is a diehard audiophile the conversations are extremely diverse (and lengthy!). BUT, there is so much that can be shared, especially ideas. I am in this hobby because I love music when it sounds beautiful, or when it moves me emotionally. Even the fun that is had when a movie is watched and the experience so immersive and involving, like you are there. I love to tweak because I like to tinker and learn... also the hobby is safe and WAF is high. Unfortunately when I listen to a system that sounds way wrong or bad to my ears, I do not like it... really too bad for me, but it is what it is.

What I have learned to do is have an open mind when it comes to any type of change in regards to audio. The minimalist route is logical, but does not always prove to be the most pleasing to me. I have learned that everything matters in some way. Sometimes a small change will yield huge gains, or barely audible. Sometimes the change is not audible or can produce negative effects. Two simple examples:

* I figured I would not even bother inserting this X-10v3 into my main rig until it is fully modded and the PSU changed. Parts for the mods and PSU are in the mail. So while testing the X-10v3 with cans I wanted to see how sensitive the unit was to footers. The X-10v3 and RA-1 amp are on a symposium platform on top of a damped flexi rack. Pulled out my box full of almost every kind of footer that one can think of. I tried only the following under the X-10v3... three purple heart pyramid footers (this sounded really bad), three brass and gaboon ebony cones I designed, using purple heart disks (better then the original X-10v3 rubber footers by a slight margin), three Purple heart disks (really nice improvement in the lower to mid midrange frequencies, also more defined and punchier mid bass), Alluminum roller blocks (tad too bright for my tastes, but did improve imaging a tad and increased width and depth of soundfield). I just duplicated what I did the other night and this is what I just heard. The differences were easily audible and is such a nice and easy way to tune a component. Also I just placed three purple heart pyramids under the RA-1....nice, quieter background, relaxes and enriches the presentation!

* This will sound absurd, so get ready for this... By changing solder used, for example Cardas Quad Eutectic vs WBT and say with four solder joints in a outboard X-over or a driver in a speaker, can be heard in my main system! Depends where the solder joint is, the audible impact to the system could be negligible, to slight, to, "no way, change that!". No kidding here either.

The 100VA toroid that is going to be used with the X-10v3 is going to be for a single output/v3 component. I called a US toroid manufacturer's engineer and after about a 30 min phone conversation I have decided to give each of the X-10v3 units (that is if I decide to proceed with multiple units in my main rig) its own toroid. The reason is better isolation. According to the engineer, yes you can just tap off of the single 12v-0-12v ouput. Here are the considerations:

* A toroid can be custom built with multiple 12v-0-12v outputs like the Musical Fidelity X-PSUv3. Again isolation will be better with seperate toroids. Since I am looking for ultimate performance, I have ruled this option out.

* Large toroid and tap off of the single 12v-0-12v ouput to end up with multiple 12v-0-12v outputs. This is the least expensive route, this is the pro. I have to simplify the cons, I understood the conversation with the engineer, but I am not able to verbally express the technical aspects. Simply put, sonically this is the least advisable route because of crosstalk, sorry this is the best I can do to explain our conversation.

* Toroid for each v3 component: Using a overkill (and the 100VA for this application is overkill) good quality toroid, the toroid will be dead silent, run cool and run idle even when the v3 component is running full throttle. Best Isolation possible. The engineer did not even recommend shielding the toroid. He says that the toroid will not be worked and the leakage will be too negligable. Either way, I will experiment with TI-Shield grounded to earth to see if shielding matters or not. This is the way I will go.

Now if this works out, I will take it one step further. I will ask Alan Maher, the man I know to be a guru with power supplies to help me with this project. The problem is that Alan knows I am anal retentive with quality and his way is generally the best way....unfortunately it is the expensive way! His ideas sometimes scare me, but always turn out as he says. Right now he is on a Springsteen tour and will not be back until around X-mas. If you like I will let you know how this toroid experiment turns out. I will have the experimental PSU up and running in a week, waiting for the toroid. I have a few other ideas to tweak it, but need to try them.

Chris

Thanks Chris. Yes, I do like to know how you do up the PSU and how it sound. In fact, many do. But being introverts, they are on the sidelines here and other forums most of the time and do not open up. I had considered briefly to go individual trans for each unit but I have a kaput X-PSU V3 on hand that has 4 outputs as could be seen from my thread. This had ruled out that option, unlike you, since the X-PSU V3 casing couldn't possibly contain 4 smaller trans at the same time. The best for me is still to tap 4 outputs from the tentative 300VA toroid to get that X-PSU resurrected again. Yes, I like the 4 trans individual output very much. My very oldman, who was an engineer before he retired many many years ago, also said something about isolation and disturbences if I parallel the circuits and STRONGLY advised me against it. That was exactly a replica of what you had staed here from your toroid engineer. So 2 persons saying the same thing cannot be wrong. That question was posed to my oldman after I had thought about the possible solutions. But my oldman is not so current to technologies as compared to all the experts here. Why should he be now, right? Just to live out the rest of his life and he will be very contented. I'm not an engineer also but a hobbyist like you who likes to thinker with things in the best possible value.

I'm also looking for ways to improve my Hifi system, technically, objectively and subjectively, at the best value. But most of the time, subjectiveness (sound and video) will be the final arbitrator for anything that were thought of. Perhaps, something about myself to way of life now. This is completely different from when I'm much youger. I'm not personal to any good constructive views, like what Alex had expressed here, and is open minded, just as you are now. When the truth is there, I will take it at face value as this is how we could and should behave to advance our understanding of the subject mutually. However, certain aspects are so true as well, just like what are qouted by me, but to deeply accept into my small working "PC" above my body. Those words written in those qoutes just reflect vividly what poeple into Hifi are arguing heatedly against one another all the time. Those arguments I take it with a pinch of salt as it doesn't reflect exactly what I had experienced in real life and those in qoutes. Btw, cheers to all watching or taking part. No need flame suit here.

Ya, Chris, can you also post some pictures of your salient points of your PSU project here as well as what you are doing is exactly what I'm planning. I'm sure there are watchers here very interested as well. Also, please let us know what possibly your friendly PSU guru Alan can do here by posting. I'm really quite surprised he can improve on something as simple as 12-0-12 VAC connection. But anything tha can really improve our enjoyment of this hobby please post. Ya, no matter how absurd. I'm not laughing and serious about this. From your overview here, you had already reached the zen stage of going towards AV nirvana.

[XTRProf]

sandyk said:

XTRProf
Have you ever tried the 24 Karat gold DVDs for recording music video using LPCM originally?
I "resampled" a " making of" music DVD which came with a deluxe Norah Jones CD, from 48KHZ 16 Bit LPCM to 48KHZ 24 bit LPCM, and it sounds fabulous. Given my experiences with the reburning to a 24 karat gold CDR (using EAC for a bit perfect copy) I am wondering how much would be gained by doing the same with higher resolution material.
SandyK

Hi Alex,

You may not believe this but no. I'm not so advance as you yet although I do have a friend who had ripped a dvd, I think 48Khz 24 bits, music only track from a Porcupine Tree music dvd for me on dvd-R. He is coaxing me to follow suit and I may response after your prompt. What do we need to rip the best possible and resample them to higher resolution on dvd readably by any universal player. Also, anyway to rip dvd-a and sacd at same reslution to dvd-/+R? That will be fabulous. The friend had let me sampled Donald Fagen - Morph The Cat DVD-A and I'm blown away at 96Khz 24 bits which the X-Dac V3 decoded b4 the bust up from the X-PSU. I'm learning. Old dear, maybe we have o start another thread as this is OT here.

As for your last line, that's exactly the XRCD approached. Now with K2 HD from 100Khz 24 bits master to K2 HD CD. Thanks.