Upgrades beyond the Rock Grotto for the X-10v3?

[Deleted]

"Sorry, man! Didn't aim."

XTRProf

I know you didn't !!!

This thread may be entertaining, and with some very unusual ideas being expressed, but I for one, don't want less experienced members to take any of these expressed ideas without a big pinch of salt.
You can alter the sound of equipment by myriads of methods, but most of them are very hit and miss as to their overall effect, as well as others being blatant exploitation of less technical people by unscrupulous "snake oil " salesmen,just so they can live the high life.Most of them are eventually discredited.
Most improvements to an existing design, are due to the use of higher quality (and expense) components, or using different components, or even bypassing an original component with a carefully selected smaller value of a better type, to correct for a perceived SQ deficiency.Mike has had many years of experience in this area.
High quality shielded interconnects, higher rated power supplies, faster rectifier diodes with their much reduced switching noise,better filter capacitors, AND reducing the effects of vibration by appropiate dampening measures, are some of the areas that give the most improvement for money.

Alex

[XTRProf]

Hi Alex,

Ya, I agreed that some are snake oils and are out to swindle big time at the expense of others for their good lifes. So to all watching this thread closely, please note that there are some conmen out here in the net or whether physically out to con. Please don't be swindle by these people. What Chris and I are expressing are to our best knowledge and thru our own experiments and ABing. For me, I try to account for the differences as well thru some technical analysis. However, there are some which is truely beyond technical analysis. If there is any ambiguity, my FINAL stand will be thru Zen views. Seriously folks, Chris and I are not out to con but to share having going nutty or bananas over them. Some examples are inorder to hedge what I meant.

Ist example is that I feel strongly the copper OCC material is better for my system then silver OCC. The music at least in my humble system and ears is more musical and stronger on most things hifi. Chris differ from me on this preferring silver materials. This is beyond technical as putting all signals thru them to measure technically will fail. So use them accordingly to your preference and system synergy.

2nd example is I find PC last on my list for tweaks. Although I do hear a difference, it's not as much as thru a "better", relatively, IC. If you have the doe as much as Chris, do rob the bank and try PC and IC at the same time. Present technical measurements will again fail to show up the differences for my preference and going nuts over the ABing.

3rd example is the solid core versus multicore. For rock and PRAT stuffs, I prefer multicore over solid core whereas I prefer solid core for vocal, classical and jazzy stuffs. Again, this can't be accounted for technically. So take your pick and trust your own judgment and preferences.

4th example is I firmly believed in BI. It just make sense zenly and technically thru the inverted bathtub curve of MTBF. Of course, we may not notice the differences when things are in short length to distort the signal. However, it's there nevertheless. Also a small interface, although inconsequencially minor, many such just add up to be a mountain.

So just think about them zenly or technically over their merits. AFAIK, I loved these as to share them here. Chris will differ on these when he comes online. We are both not out to deceive in anyway. But do beware of those that are out to con and to sell real snake oils. I rest my case here.

Btw, what are written by Mike and Alex do have their merits as well. It's only in the views on how they should sound zenly that differs. No arguments on that as we are very very passionate about things Hifi or AV. If there is ever no merits which you feel that Chris and I had contributed in anyway and should be taken out in this forum, we will gladly leave in peace. So shoot your feelings here. Really, nothing personal but just passions for anything Hifi or AV. It's only "business" as what Donald Trump likes to say.

[Deleted]

" If there is ever no merits which you feel that Chris and I had contributed in anyway and should be taken out in this forum, we will gladly leave in peace."


XTRProf
This forum is about the exchanging of ideas. There will always be disagreements and differing points of view in this area. ;D
I just recommend that members try to get their equipment up to the highest possible standards, with proven technical and component changes,(which are slowly becoming verifiable by new test techniques, and test equipment of much higher resolution) then try some of the ways suggested by yourself and Chris for themselves.
It seems to me that the biggest drawback with HI-FI, is the inability of all the medical and Audio experts to realise, and come to agreement, that the human ear/brain combination,perhaps with some additional help from facial bones etc, is capable of MUCH more than they realise. Many of us routinely notice audio changes so minute, that really, all the existing textbooks on human hearing and audio comprehension should be consigned to the recycle bin. IMHO, the human hearing mechanism has far greater resolution than existing test equipment. Especially, with
practice. Even an old fart like me !

Alex

[XTRProf]

Oh Alex,

You son of a gun, no problem seriously. I do enjoy your technical prowless, vision and wisdom very much. You also the most helpful in this forum. If I'm to name, Mike obviously will be no. 1 since he's the owner and you no 2. Come on who conrtibuted so much to this forum as much as you for the same time frame. I'm not pinpointing at you but just to create awareness in GENERAL that if anyone out there have any suspicion of our intentions, please do voice out to reduce misunderstanding of Chris and my views in general. That's why I also added Mike's and Alex's views do have their merits as well.

Sorry, if I had created any misunderstanding here. Really sorry and I apologise unreservedly.

[Deleted]

XTRProf

In some areas, Rickcr42 has a much greater depth of knowledge than I do. It is a shame that Rick is unable to join in this discussion at the moment. Mike has already stated that he is glad you have started this thread, and I feel sure that as you previously remarked, there are many sitting on the sidelines , quite interested to hear a couple of differing, and most unusual, viewpoints from yourself and Chris.
Regards
Alex

[PinkFloyd]

The search engine here is "dire" to say the least, there are MANY threads on placebo, tweaking yourself (instead of the system) and a whole host of other stuff but I can't find it! Will have a scout about in the depths of this place and see if I can find some of the threads

[toad]

admin said:

The search engine here is "dire" to say the least, there are MANY threads on placebo, tweaking yourself (instead of the system) and a whole host of other stuff but I can't find it! Will have a scout about in the depths of this place and see if I can find some of the threads

Try the following

Go to google. Click advanced search. type your search and then paste or type :http://rockgrotto.proboards39.com into the domain box

Voila! better than any forum search and works on any site you care to enter in the domain

[PinkFloyd]

toad said:

admin said:

The search engine here is "dire" to say the least, there are MANY threads on placebo, tweaking yourself (instead of the system) and a whole host of other stuff but I can't find it! Will have a scout about in the depths of this place and see if I can find some of the threads

Try the following

Go to google. Click advanced search. type your search and then paste or type :http://rockgrotto.proboards39.com into the domain box

Voila! better than any forum search and works on any site you care to enter in the domain

Excellent stuff but I still can't find the stuff I'm looking for It was all about tweaking "yourself" into a condition to receive the message / vibes of the music.... I ain't typing all that same old over and over again but will find it somewhere and paste it in

[simba00000]

To me, this thread is getting funny, but more interesting...lol Because the reason I started this thread was to hopefully gain insight from anyone that has "tried and experimented" with upgrading the X-10v3 beyond the upgrade kit sold by Mike. The whole idea was in the open, share ideas, suggestions and experiences from varied sources with one goal in mind. This obviously is unlikely to happen, but who knows. I will keep trying for a little while longer. lol

Before I say anything else... "putting on my esoteric flame proof suit -> of course purchased at a highend audio boutique... lmao

Obviously by the amount of views that this thread has attracted in the short time it has been going, that there are more then the four of us reading this thread. So I will wholeheartedly agree with the following that has been said for the newer people in this fasinating hobby (paraphrased):

1) There are crooks in this business and you should research your purchases. Caveat emptor comes to mind here.

2) There are many, many ways to tweak, modify or voice a system. To me, this is the fasinating thing about this hobby.

3) Money thrown at a system does not gaurantee a higher level of performance. BUT, quality unforyunately costs more.

4) There is such a thing as "the law of diminishing returns". Now this is very subjective. The higher end or more resolving a system the more sensitive the system will be to simple tweaks. There does come a time where changes or tweaks will yield minor results. Even these minor changes can be a very pleasing change and be worth the effort or cost. Sometimes a change is for the worse.

5) Not everything that is effective in the realm of tweaking audio is expensive. In fact some are free.

6) Everyone has differing tastes. Assuming anyone that would be reading this loves music. I like a warm, lush beautiful presentation. A presentation that is also detailed with much depth. In a live performance, this is not necessarily the case.

Now, lets double check the flame suit to make sure all is secure, because I know its coming soon!

Before I forget, I will attempt to post a few pics. Since I have not posted any pics before on this site, I will try to post 6 pics. To give you an idea how serious I am about my main setup, one of the pics is of two Custom (yes uber expensive...lol) power cords directly hardwired to a dedicated line that power most of the audio (aside sub) in my main system. The purple cover you see is a purple heart wood cover plate. The power cords are custom Alan Maher Designs Studio Reference.

usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/Hardwireinstallpics1.JPG

I only worked on what I call the experimental PSU yesterday for a few hours. I was with the wifey most of the day. The following 5 pics are of the PSU so far and the interlinking power cord between the PSU and X-10v3.

usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/UnfinishedX3PSUandPC-1.jpg
usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/UnfinishedX3PSUandPC-2.jpg
usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/X3PSUpowercable-1rev1.JPG
usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/X3PSUpowercable-2rev1.JPG
usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/X3PSUpowercable-3rev1.JPG

I will post this and see if the pics show. Then I will finish this post.

Chris

[simba00000]

The pics didn't show, but they can be viewed. Lets try another pic to see if it shows. This pic is of an extremely tricked out power line conditioner I built. Lets see if it shows...

<IMG SRC="http://usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/ChangGutpics-1.jpg">

[Deleted]

Chris
What an anticlimax !
Are you trying to be conciliatory, or something ? ;D
Alex

[simba00000]

Ok lets try this one more time. If these pics don't show up, then I have run out of ideas...



<a href="http://usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/UnfinishedX3PSUandPC-2.jpg"><img src="http://usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/icth_UnfinishedX3PSUandPC-2.jpg.jpg"></a>

[simba00000]

Hell no Alex! Now that I got the I agree stuff out of the way. To pre-frame the following, I am an "it is what it is" guy. And either I like it or I do not. Any tweak, mod, cable swap, experiment, or whatever I try or hear, either I like it or not. There is no placebo effect. If I am not sure if I like it, I blow it off. From my experiences, the following is what I have proven to myself. Not what I have read or have been told. And I have been able to repeat the following:

1) In audio, specifically high end when one wants to get the most out of a system they can, there is proven engineering (text book) and there is the unexplainable. An obvious example is valve or tube gear. Dudes, tube is distortion! At the same time there are so many people that love the sound of tubes. I could go on for days with the tweaks I have experienced that sounds probable at best on the surface, have no scientific backing and work! And dudes, I am not Mr. Belt! Continued at #5 below...

2) As I mentioned before, "Especially silver wire, from my experience they will never see their full sonic potential without treating with a burner. After properly burning-in high quality silver they will lose that HF glare and edge, become less analytical and become more musical. I use a Hagerman Frycleaner for interconnect or speaker cables.". I used to run cables 24/7 off of a tuner. After about a week or so of the tuner, the cable relaxed a bit. This is "nothing" like putting a cable on a real cable burner! If anyone reading this does not agree with me, I would lay odds they have never done a direct comparison! Yes, the whole concept of cable burn-in sounds like BS.... Until you try it!

3) I think it was Mike that mocked Musicoat. Ok first a clarification, I am "not" rich. I am just lucky enough that I can comfortably afford a few nice things I want. Yes Musicoat is expensive. For a piece of gear like a X-10v3, the cost is about $20 US to treat and 10 mins of my time. Yes, in my gear, or any component I have tried Musicoat on, the benefit is appreciable to me. Also anyone I have read a review on Musicoat or that I know personally that have tried Musicoat have liked it. So, unless you have tried it, I would recommend not knocking it!

Re-checking flame suit...

4) Wow you guys never heard of polishing solid core wire or connections? By the way, when I say polish, I use 00 to 000 steel wool and Caig ProGold. Ok, there are four reasons for polishing:

* Reason #1: Is obvious. If the wire or connection is clean and free of any oxidation, the contact is better.

* The ProGold will retard/prevent oxidation for at least 10 years. This stuff is used in the Aerospace industry just for this purpose.

* Prevents arcing of the connection.

* The last has to do with surface contact area. If you look at any connector or wire under a microscope you will see the surface looks like peaks and valleys. When you polish the wire or connector it becomes smoother, giving a bit more contact area... then to further enhance...

5) This leads to contact enhancers. On the surface of the idea, contact enhancers did not make any sense to me. How will placing anything between the contacts improve the sonics? After enough people recommended I try Walker Audio SST, I tried it. Since then, I tried just about everything on the market. Arguably the best contact enhancer on the market now for audio or video is Quick Silver Gold. This stuff really does kick ass. Research it yourself, you will thank me later! My time is pretty valuable to me. I am also extremely picky about my main A/V rig. I liked this stuff enough that I spent 1.5 days treating all connections in my system, even inside all the components.

6) Wire differences. Huh? My experience with wire used for audio has taught me that wire definitely sounds different. It gets really complicated especially when, terminations, dieletrics and geometries are all mixed together. The many vast combinations of the just mentioned will sound different. Now remember, I am referring to high end gear. With mid-fi, this should also hold true. If anyone believes this paragraph sounds like BS or is far fetched, you just have not experimented with enough different wire.

Ok, this is enough...lol I have to get up early tomorrow. Oh yah, in the picture of that base PSU, what you see so far is:

* 100VA step down Toroid 120VA to 12-0-12. This Toroid is "supposed to be" as good at a Plitron. It is really inexpensive when purchased direct from the factory, so I will give it a go.

* Toroid bolt, and nut is stainless steel. I tested them to make sure they were not magnetic. Washers used are brass.

* That is Microsorb around the Toroid to secure the TI-Shield. TI-Shield is some real cool shit. After cutting the TI-Shield I rounded the edges and polished. You should seen the oxidation before I polished.

* Copper ground block, polished obviously...lol Polished brass Bolt, nut and washer used to secure in place.

* Under the Toroid is Ear C-1002 (blue stuff) then Microsorb. This is a very trick combo for Toroids.

Chris

[Deleted]

"I like a warm, lush beautiful presentation. A presentation that is also detailed with much depth...."
Chris
You shouldn't need to go to such extremes to achieve those stated requirements.
Start off with well designed equipment using quality components, and you are almost there.
The rest is mainly attention to detail and matching of components. An interconnect used with a well designed piece of equipment should be transparent if correctly terminated, physically and electrically, however, the capacitance and conductivity of the lead may cause a small difference in SQ, not necessarily for the better.
IMHO, valves have too much inherent distortion, and too high a noise level to accomplish this fully.

" Wow you guys never heard of polishing solid core wire or connections? By the way, when I say polish, I use 00 to 000 steel wool and Caig ProGold. Ok, there are four reasons for polishing:

* Reason #1: Is obvious. If the wire or connection is clean and free of any oxidation, the contact is better.

Agreed, Then you properly solder the bloody thing !!!
BTW, with stranded core cable, it goes without saying that you should ensure that each and every strand of wire should be clean and shiny before soldering. As I said earlier, if a connector or plug has a rough surface, either in it's original state, or due to atmospheric corrosion, don't spray it, replace it with a new, preferably higher quality part, and while you are at it, ensure that the plug and socket are a good snug fit.If not choose a different one. Tolerances can vary considerably during manufacture. I have replaced a helluva lot of so called quality gold plated RCA sockets over recent years.

"After properly burning-in high quality silver they will lose that HF glare and edge, become less analytical and become more musical."

Easy, only use silver type leads if the treble is slightly lacking. Otherwise use a high quality OFC cable. Also , don't use interconnects that are much longer than really needed. e.g. a .6M cable instead of a 1M cable
If you need a slight amount of extra detail with a typical solid state amplifier, reduce the value of the series input resistors , or reduce the input filter capacitor value to the previous preferred value in both channels. MUCH, MUCH, cheaper than expensive silver interconnects. You could also use Blue Jeans LC1 low capacitance interconnects, which are very reasonably priced , for a little extra detail. If the sound is a little too bright do the opposite with the SS amplifiers input filter. These are just the tip of the iceberg with economical technical methods to achieve similar results to the weird and wacky , often expensive, boutique cables and other voodoo methods that can't be explained.

BTW, in LME Crossbar Telephone exchanges (years ago) we used roll after roll of quality teflon coated silver wire for it's high conductivity and immunity to corrosion,So I do have some understanding of the subject.
Chris, my gear is more than capable of resolving these tweaks that you are talking about.
This is without sprinkling "Pixie dust" or spraying with expensive contact enhancers.
Can YOU readily tell the difference between a .flac file reconverted to .wav on a CD, compared to the same file that hasn't been processed, then burned to a CD-R ? ;D

Regards
Alex

BTW, no offence intended, just entering into the friendly stirring of this thread.

[XTRProf]

simba00000 said:

To me, this thread is getting funny, but more interesting...lol Because the reason I started this thread was to hopefully gain insight from anyone that has "tried and experimented" with upgrading the X-10v3 beyond the upgrade kit sold by Mike. The whole idea was in the open, share ideas, suggestions and experiences from varied sources with one goal in mind. This obviously is unlikely to happen, but who knows. I will keep trying for a little while longer. lol

Before I say anything else... "putting on my esoteric flame proof suit -> of course purchased at a highend audio boutique... lmao

Obviously by the amount of views that this thread has attracted in the short time it has been going, that there are more then the four of us reading this thread. So I will wholeheartedly agree with the following that has been said for the newer people in this fasinating hobby (paraphrased):

1) There are crooks in this business and you should research your purchases. Caveat emptor comes to mind here.

2) There are many, many ways to tweak, modify or voice a system. To me, this is the fasinating thing about this hobby.

3) Money thrown at a system does not gaurantee a higher level of performance. BUT, quality unforyunately costs more.

4) There is such a thing as "the law of diminishing returns". Now this is very subjective. The higher end or more resolving a system the more sensitive the system will be to simple tweaks. There does come a time where changes or tweaks will yield minor results. Even these minor changes can be a very pleasing change and be worth the effort or cost. Sometimes a change is for the worse.

5) Not everything that is effective in the realm of tweaking audio is expensive. In fact some are free.

6) Everyone has differing tastes. Assuming anyone that would be reading this loves music. I like a warm, lush beautiful presentation. A presentation that is also detailed with much depth. In a live performance, this is not necessarily the case.

Now, lets double check the flame suit to make sure all is secure, because I know its coming soon!

Before I forget, I will attempt to post a few pics. Since I have not posted any pics before on this site, I will try to post 6 pics. To give you an idea how serious I am about my main setup, one of the pics is of two Custom (yes uber expensive...lol) power cords directly hardwired to a dedicated line that power most of the audio (aside sub) in my main system. The purple cover you see is a purple heart wood cover plate. The power cords are custom Alan Maher Designs Studio Reference.

usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/Hardwireinstallpics1.JPG

I only worked on what I call the experimental PSU yesterday for a few hours. I was with the wifey most of the day. The following 5 pics are of the PSU so far and the interlinking power cord between the PSU and X-10v3.

usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/UnfinishedX3PSUandPC-1.jpg
usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/UnfinishedX3PSUandPC-2.jpg
usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/X3PSUpowercable-1rev1.JPG
usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/X3PSUpowercable-2rev1.JPG
usera.imagecave.com/criquet013/X-10v3PSUProject/X3PSUpowercable-3rev1.JPG

I will post this and see if the pics show. Then I will finish this post.

Chris

Great work there, Chris! Every words so "high end" and jelling. LOL

[XTRProf]

Hi Chris,

Still can't see your pictures. Maybe use photobucket.com instead. All mine watchable here were uploaded there. Fyi.

[Deleted]

XTRProf
I wouldn't worry about it. The photos are only a single click away. The only gripe I have is that most of them could do with a little tweaking in a photo program to reveal a little more detail.
Alex

[PinkFloyd]

sandyk said:

XTRProf
I wouldn't worry about it. The photos are only a single click away. The only gripe I have is that most of them could do with a little tweaking in a photo program to reveal a little more detail.
Alex

Even better if he printed them out, placed them in freezer bags along with some rainbow foil, a quantum clip some green morphic message foil, wrote Chris O.K> x26 x26 on them and then stick them in the deep freeze...... not only would the "online" photos have more clarity, the forum would also become a brighter place and his system would improve dramatically (higher highs, lower lows etc.) it's true you know........ Peter Belt told me

[Deleted]

Chris
Originally , you were talking about several transformers. I see only a single transformer in the photos. Does it have multiple secondaries ? Are you going to be feeding more than one component at a time with it ?
If it doesn't have multiple secondaries, and will be feeding more than one component, then all the spit and polish, and voodoo, will not let it perform to your lofty expectations.
If you read my reply to a recent post about a transformer buzzing when the MF X10-D is in use, you will see that some components distort the mains waveform due to use of half wave rectification etc. In this case the transformer was buzzing whenever this component was in use. Obviously, this will give a less than desireable supply to other components using the same winding(s)/transformer.
High End ? NOT !!!
SandyK

Below, is the question that Coolmaster asked :

I've been using a 80VA toroidal tranny to power both XLP and X-10Dv1. There's two 12VAC windings and I've connected the MF components seperately. I can't figure out why I hear an irritating buzz from the tranny when the X-10D is functioning. I'm guessing its something to do with the tube heater supply and I can't figure out whats wrong. Remove the tubes and the buzz is gone. Other than that, both perform ok. Any answers?.


Chris
For a constructive suggestion, check the thread :
Musical Fidelity X10-D transformer question

Alex

[PinkFloyd]

sandyk said:

Remove the tubes and the buzz is gone.

Yeh............. and so has the sound ;D