Cable Recipes

[zanash]

I've some interesting cable recipes ...IC's and Digital ic's ....

Anyone interested ?

[PinkFloyd]

zanash said:

I've some interesting cable recipes ...IC's and Digital ic's ....

Anyone interested ?

Of course!

[zanash]

I posted a recipe on wigwam .......hum with little responce.

[zanash]

Digital IC .......

1.5m of 0.5mm solid core silver wire....[copper will do at a pinch]
1.5m of 1mm id ptfe tube
2 x rca plugs

1/ thread the metal conductor into the sleeve
2/ fold in half and anchor one end and twist tightly[ Iuse a power drill to get 1 turn every 5mmm ish]
3/ cut the loop and twist up the last bit
4/ strip enough ptfe sleeve to allow solder joints to be made on
the rca plugs. Use a meter to check the correct continuity of each plug.

option
5/ thread twisted pair into a pvc tube and then cover with techflex or similar

6/ delve into your dac and find out what resistance it likes to see and add a buffer res to the cable.

If you have gone down the silver route you will now have approx 0.75m air/ptfe dielectric digital interconnect that will need serious money to better ......

the total cost of this IC should be no more than £15, if it is you can tell someone is ripping you off.

If you can't find the parts give me a pm.

Happy soldering

[PinkFloyd]

This stuff is as cheap as chips and as good as any IMO www.gspaudio.co.uk/set_up/cable_1_hi-fi_interconnect.htm spend anymore than £25 on a metre of interconnect and you're mad "in my opinion" <don't shout at me!> Parts list and suppliers at the bottom of Graham's tutorial.

[zanash]

I see a few problems with that design.............

I will make one I've all the bits and see how it works, but for starters here are a few thoughts

using the screen as that signal return is a big no no
mixing silver and copper normally give the worst of both worlds....imo
why not just add another silver core and use them as the signal returns and forget the copper ? you can then run the screen in pseudo balance confg.

I'll knock one up and see how it sounds in comparison to other designs.

[PinkFloyd]

zanash said:

I see a few problems with that design.............

I bet you won't hear them

[zanash]

Actually you can .............but don't take my word go build one !

Its an easy build ...... took me about ten minutes. I used the small neutrik rca plugs on both.

sound in comparision to a full silver ic [my own design] , here are a few notes I made.

a little shut in and smeared.
bass full and rather one note
screechy top end

Modded test IC screen removed extra return conductor added [silver]

closer to silver ic but lumpy bass and smearing in the mid and top end
sounds like some of the silver plated copper ic or a SPCCS [silverplated copper clad steel ] cable I use for none critical applications.



Expalination of test .......

The quad 99cdp has two outputs one fixed one varriable. The test IC was placed in the fixed and the comparison IC fitted in the varriable the volume was adjusted to match [turned full on].

All gear was run for 4 hours .The silver IC was made at the same time as the test IC the Quad feeds a Quad 77 pre with three rca inputs swicthable via remote. Several cd's were played and the pre switched between IC. At the end I swapped ic inputs and had another quick listen,without altering my opinions.


Conclusions ...

If you've gone to the trouble of getting the silver why compromise the design and add the copper connection ?

The full silver is smooth fast dynamic and natural sounding......none of the over bright top end that is normally taked of. IMO this because certain cables have been passed off as pure silver when infact the contan a very large percentage copper .....I can't prove it but I can make cables that sound like it ! These are of course silver plated copper in extruded ptfe often reffered to as aerospace technology or similar ! The only reason silver is used is to stop metal migration in the solder joint ...and ptfe is very resistant to temp change , abrassion and has a good dielectric plus others !. Which has little to do with how these cables can sound especially in an aerospace context.

Now I'm not saying these cables are bad ...in the right system they can sound very good. Just that as in this case you can do considerabley better with just a little more effort.

I'll post a good silver ic recipe ......when I've sorted out with "pink F" how to do the pics.......

[PinkFloyd]

a little shut in and smeared.
bass full and rather one note
screechy top end

If you can hear all of those "differences" when auditioning interconnects you must either have hearing like a bat or a vivid imagination IMO. Sorry but I think interconnect discussion is the the biggest crock of crap and total placebo hocus pocus. Good "honest" well terminated / screened copper (or silver) is all you need. Even the guys that sell the uber expensive interconnect jewelry will tell you that if you ever bump into them in a pub Also ask anyone in the "audio trade" that you know, most of them agree that this is one area of audio that is a licence to print money.

Anyways, I'll give your cable a go Zanash (not expecting to hear any miraculous improvement to the sound) but I could do with another set so may as well build my own again (as cheap as possible) what are the capacitance, resistance and inductance values of your cable and how do these parameters change with frequency and amplitude?

but don't take my word go build one!

I did. 2 years ago. Sounds perfectly ok to me.

[zanash]

Would you like to try one of my IC ......no strings well postage.

If you can't hear anything ..no probs just drop it back in the post. pm with you address !


I'm not one for specs.....I don't rely on them to convey how the ic's sound. Not that theres anything unusual about them either. If you like the sound ...you like the sound if you don't ..etc.
The electrical characteristics will not change your listening pleasure/displeasure. I just suggest people fit and listen, for about a week as they will change a little as they bed in /burn in whatever you call it.

I'm not selling cables by the way...just a hobbyist who seems to have had to reinvent the wheel over the last 25years in respect to cables.

Though I will make them for people if they ask nicely !





Just because I've big ears wings, furry coat and come out at night...... doesn't mean I'm a bat

[thegreatroberto]

Are these IC's directional ?

[stellabagpuss]

I will stand by Zanash claims, I felt more or less the same as PinkFloyd prior to using one that Zanash made for me. I had nothing to loose, so I thought ...why not try one.
I was surprised to say the least, as the focus and speed of instruments seem faster. I'm not saying it was a hugh improvement over my 2 other Digital Input cables "Kontak" & "Sonic Link", simply it was better. So I've stuck with it.
Being that this is my first post, here is my equipment

Meridian 500 Mk2 Transport Modded with Trichcord Clock 4 & NC Supply.

MF XDACV3,X10V3,XPSUV3

Pioneer Precision A300R Full Monty Amp Mod By Tom Evans

Monitor Audio 20 SEC Celebrations

Speaker Cables & I/c Zanash Silver type

[rickcr42]

very valid topology with a couple of "I would change this"

First the orange has got to go. ;D

I assume the base is cotton which is cool though the garish color not so very and would personally opt for earth tones as in the vintage radio cloth wires.

Second-rather than use two colors of "spagetti" to cover the bare naked wiring I would just buy a HUGE MAMMA SUCKER clear spool for a lifetime supply and to identify hot wire from the common wire would add a small dab of red nail polish to each end before twisting onto the base to keep them straight.

Finally i would lose the cover.This looks to be plastic of some type and if so WILL add capacitance to the overall figure so unless it is required as in a turntable interconnect to "up" the value for a MM cartridge needing it low is usually best and since this is a tidy design that is inherently low on the cable capacitance scale would avoid adding any just for "looks" if that is the case here.


The above are my attempt at "constructive" additions to streamline both the design and the build but are NOT meant as criticism.Having the balls to post a design and let others critique it is something to be admired from where I sit,nott slammed,and the design itself is a nice one

[zanash]

I' can't disagree with you !......but most people want a jacket on their IC ...

the design is essentially a parallel pair ....

this is a well proven design I've made about 20 and supplied the material to people in another 30 or so for diy builds [which is whatit was designed for]

I'm going to add the instructions .......

the thin signal and thick return version has embarrised cables upto £500 ...not my views I can't afford cables in that league !

Its important to use 4n silver as this is affects the sound considerably.

[xerxes]

Why the 2 different diemeters of wire, what's the theory behind that?

Presumably, 1 diameter is for the signal and the other for the ground, but the instructions don't say which way round.

If you did away with the heat shrink cover, I guess the cable would be prone to unraveling. How about using a braided sleeving, something like this, and using a short length of heatshrink at each end, just to secure it. Would that be better than the heat shrink the entire length in terms of capacitance?

[rickcr42]

Why the 2 different diemeters of wire, what's the theory behind that?

smallest workable diameter is always best for signal leads,heavier wire for the ground for the lowest impedance

If you did away with the heat shrink cover, I guess the cable would be prone to unraveling.

Actually stronger than you think.Because the base is cotton the wire indents slightly which holds it in place and this it a wire topology used in some very $$$$ esoteric cabling.The best dielectric is air (see Thorten's Zero Cable) with natural fibers being second best (over ALL petroleum based dielectrics including teflon).

Adding a "cover" of any kind to any cable adds to the overall capacitance of the cable and that includes the actual wire coating (why i use magnet wire),adding a "shield" adds to the inductance so two high quality wires in a minalist natural fiber dielectric "uncovered" would be the ideal other than two wires with "air" as the dielectric

Would that be better than the heat shrink the entire length in terms of capacitance?

would make it very hard to use by making it stiff and truth is a piss poor dielectric material.

The reason for covers ?

Toughness in the pro field where wires take a beating,inept consumers beating the shit out of their wire by running them in high traffic areas or sitting furniture on them and "audiphiles" who need "pretty" over function

[zanash]

can argue with that.....

The DNA runs in 95% air dielectric approx .......Due to the twist you need to keep the conductors and sleeves held to the former. The heatshrink acts to damp any vibration too..

The thinest silver I can get is 0.2 mm and is a complete pig to use ....you have to make comprimises somewhere.

This is a DIY cable and cost about £40 in materials ......It out performs £500 cables

This design is compromised I agree ...but it works well and I feel I've made the compromises in the right places.

If you don't like it no, one is forcing you to build it !!!

[thegreatroberto]

Dat's fightin'talk !..............But I expect Rick will let it go !!

[stellabagpuss]

I've compared them,and a simple twisted set of solid silver in PTFE out performed my Van Den Hull D102MK3, by large margin, better speed, sound-stage, well everything really. It made a big difference when I changed the cheap wiring inside my MF Units

IMO I think it's great to discuss or have different thoughts on cables, although I would never make a comment until I've tried something out on my own ears, to do so would be a bit negative really IMO.

Lets hope this stays as a Cable Recipe Subject which I believe is Zanash Intention and not the usual for or against cable debate. I was a non Believer of cables of some 18 Years, until I change the PSU cable on Amp, I felt a mug, when I could hear the improvements!

[xerxes]

I've found cables to make a difference. In my own set up, I found that speaker cables can make a very significant change to the sound. Interconnects also make a difference, but, in my system anyway, the change is generally quite subtle and nowhere near as dramatic as speaker cable changes can be.

A while back I tried a few interconnects by connecting the two outputs of my CD player to different inputs on my amp, so I was able to do a quick A-B comparison by switching inputs with with the remote control.

Cables I tried:
- Cheap interconnects, like those provided in the box with a CD or DVD player - Free
- Kimber PBJ - ~£75.00
- Cyrus Interconnect - ~£85.00
- Van den Hul The First Ultimate - ~£150.00
- Townshend Isolda DCT 300 - ~£250.00

All of the branded cables were a step up from the cheap and nasty "give away" cables and the improvement was pretty obvious. However, I found the differences between the dearer cables much more subtle. To my ears the Townshend sounded best, but only by the smallest of margins, next I liked the Cyrus cable, with the VDH and Kimber last. In other, possibly more revealing, systems the differences may be more marked.

In addition, with the exception of the "give away" cable, I found the differences to be so subtle that had I needed to take the time to unplug one set of cables and then plug in another set, rather than switching between them with the remote, I doubt I would have been able to hear the differences.

[rickcr42]

Dat's fightin'talk !..............But I expect Rick will let it go !!

This time

different cables for different needs and there is no "the one" to suit every part of a typical modern home multi-source/multichannel/multiformat hifi system.

I use shielded anywhere around digital and that means computer,CDP,DVD,SATV box,etc.I also use shielded for my vinyl kit due to the extreme high gain this cable will see at the phono stage where any noise/hum/rfi picked up will be magnified by X100.Mic cables balanced shielded,speaker cables two parallel 18 guage solid conductor copper,headphone extension mogami neglex

All other sources and rack interconnections are all small guage shieldless/minamalist two wire,three wire PBJ types or recently 2+2 wire "twist" types (Steve Eddy recipe) for the least possible amount of "wire" content until we get to the long runs where I shift to full shield balanced lines with transformer coupling at both ends in combination with true line drivers and receivers.

to say one single cable is a cure all for every opart of the audio signal path is not totally a correct statement as is the "beats all $$$" cables which is ridiculous since all cables are not created equal with price having little to do with performance.

Some cheap cables kick ass (kimbers) while some very expensive cables are "eye candy" and no more with the reverse also being true.What would i buy if i did not make my own as my "general use" all around audio cable ?

www.crystalcable.com/

www.q-audio.com/

www.6moons.com/audioreviews/thin/thin.html

I have built a version of the Q-Audio cable and it flat out kicks ass and that is without the wood RCA plugs and silk former which can only be better having less metal and a superior dielectric

[manic]

I have tried 8 or 9 different cables on my current system from very expensive to not so. Can never hear a significantly better sound, just a different sound. The biggest benefits came from working on the dirty mains - too many milking parlors and small engineering firms in the area.

[PinkFloyd]

I've been listening through one of Zanash's interconnects for the past couple of days (he kindly sent me one to audition) and I can honestly say I can't hear any difference between it and my home made Cable Talk interconnects.

I sat a friend down yesterday (who is very musical.... plays the piano) and let him listen to one of his own recordings (so he would know the piece very well indeed!) and swapped out the two cables several times. He couldn't hear any immediate "difference" either. I didn't expect to hear anything as I'm pretty thick skinned when it comes to cable but must admit I "wanted" to hear a difference.

Beautifully constructed cables and superb looking in the flesh but nothing to report sonically (nothing negative, nothing positive) just the music I'm used to as per normal.

I can't really add anything or garnish this into a 2,000 word review as I didn't hear anything out of the ordinary. Music as usual so I can, at least, say the cables didn't "add" anything to the sound.

Superbly constructed:



Many thanks for the audition Zanash, I'll get the cables back to you tomorrow. As much as I'd like to give them the recommended "couple of weeks minimum" I'd prefer to get them back to you in order that someone else can have a shot of them.

All the best.

Mike.

[zanash]

Well in a way thats a good result....at least you didn't hear anything bad !

If any body is interested in giving them a try feel free to contact me via pm.

Were the cable talks a kit from Missing Link ?

I can't comment on what you heard other than the fact you heard no difference. I'm not alone in being able to hear what these cables can do so it's down to some other reasons. I expect a lot of this is going to be system dependant and of course if the cable your using is first rate, your likely to only get a flavour change ! I use the following and cables are easily distinguished, Quad 99cdp, dynavox vr70e, martin logan Aerius i's...with interlopers that include lite dac ah, mf x-dacv3, mf10xv3, mf xdac, quad 77 pre.

The changes that I hear are nearly of the same magnitude as putting a mf10xv3 into the system or swapping the standard psu for a 500va monster on the mf x-dac. Though I believe Pink could not tell the difference between v3 psu's either.......??

What i did forget to ask was what gear you had and were going to use them on.

Still nothing ventured is nothing gained !

Thanks for taking the time and putting up a nice photo too !

[PinkFloyd]

zanash said:

Well in a way thats a good result....at least you didn't hear anything bad !

Indeed.

Were the cable talks a kit from Missing Link?

That sounds familiar, yes.

I can't comment on what you heard other than the fact you heard no difference.

Zero difference.

I'm not alone in being able to hear what these cables can do so it's down to some other reasons.

Like both myself and a professionally trained musician are both deaf? I think not.

I expect a lot of this is going to be system dependant and of course if the cable your using is first rate, your likely to only get a flavour change!

I use the following and cables are easily distinguished, Quad 99cdp, dynavox vr70e, martin logan Aerius i's...with interlopers that include lite dac ah, mf x-dacv3, mf10xv3, mf xdac, quad 77 pre.

You mean capacitance and inductance are easily distinguished giving a slightly different sonic signature? Possibly, but certainly not "night and day".

The changes that I hear are nearly of the same magnitude as putting a mf10xv3 into the system or swapping the standard psu for a 500va monster on the mf x-dac.

I didn't hear the same "magnitude" of "changes" at my end, sorry.

Though I believe Pink could not tell the difference between v3 psu's either.......??

Oh! I can tell the difference alright, extremely "subtle" but certainly not £250 worth of difference. Great if you have more than one x-ponent to power but if you think you're going to get a WHAMMO! night and day "improvement" in the SQ then think again, I think there are many X-PSU owners who agree me with me on that one Zanash ;D I only report on good value for money highly "audible" improvements and bog standard toroids in fancy enclosures and interconnects with the girth of a boa constrictor don't generally fall into the highly "audible" category....... with inteconnects the law of diminishing returns kicks in and going from a £20 job to a £2,000 job does not bring about a perceived £1,880 "improvement".

I've listened to your interconnects and for you tell me you hear a huge difference is not surprising considering you make them and market them. For you to say "I agree" would be like shooting yourself in the foot but PLEASE don't insinuate there must be something wrong with either my hearing or my equipment just because I don't agree with you, that's totally unprofessional.

What i did forget to ask was what gear you had and were going to use them on.

I auditioned your cables with a modded Marantz CD17 KI signature front end through a WNA MKlll, a Meier Corda HA-1, a HFN009 and a modded V3. Headphones used were my usual HD-600, AKG-K501 and Grado SR325i. I know these amps back to front and I also know my recordings, my source and my 'phones having used most as reference for the past 4 years and almost 8,000 posts on Head-Fi with lots of people valueing my opinions so, again, please don't insinuate there is anything amiss with either my hearing or my equipment.

Still nothing ventured is nothing gained !

Indeed.

Thanks for taking the time and putting up a nice photo too !

My pleasure, they're beautifully constructed cables and certainly very nice looking.