XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 26, 2012 8:59:34 GMT
The thermistor is taped to the CPU heatsink, and I expect it would also be a relatively fast response type. Er, I mean the varying case fans and not CPU. CPU fan can remain at constant speed as it's almost noiseless at about 10 to 5 dbA and within the case. It's only the bloody case fans that make lots of noise thru draft and fan noise. Is there a linear varying speed fan for case fans? Noctua? If have, I can make use of Will's PS PCB to be independent of the MB PS at 5 or 12VDC depending on which fan type, CPU or Case.
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 26, 2012 11:49:49 GMT
Time to look into my Dell i7 as a cross reference for cooling. So ........... On closer look of the back fans .............. Front look ............. No fan, man! PSU ...... Only 350W, man! And I don't have any insufficient power to drive the i7 PC. So analysis conclusion based on Dell "expertise" are: 1) 2 80mm case fans, including the PSU fan, + 80mm CPU cooling fan is already quite competent to cool an i7. So not much different from my old PC arrangement. 2) PSU of around 350W is already enough to drive an i7 to competent level. So based on this reference, 1 front case fan of 140mm Noctua with the PSU fan as the exhaust will be more than competently cool an i7 AV computer with gaming without overclock. Of course, we must have the 80 or 120mm CPU fan and cooling heatsink as well. If still not enough go for a water cool radiator too. I have to go for the minimum fans as this PC is mainly for audio, man! PSU, I think a Seasonic of about 700W, to make sure by doubling the W, will be more than enough to fully supply the dedicated computer rig of whatever CPU and configuration. Alex, if you already have a linear computer PS design of about 700W, please share as I wanted that finally as the PSU too. So am I correct in my assesment and provision?
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 26, 2012 12:10:52 GMT
I took a picture of the RAM in my Dell, since I'm already into it, and it's this: I have a total of 3 pieces of 2GB RAM making it a total of 6GB. The 3 RAMs only took up 3 of the 4 RAM slots. I want to max it out to 16GB if possible. Most probably I just slot in a 4GB RAM into the last slot to make it a total of 10GB DDR3. Any complication there? Can I use a higher speed RAM for the last slot since I'm buying?
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 26, 2012 12:31:55 GMT
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 26, 2012 13:21:22 GMT
PVM fans are mostly used for CPU coolers, but you can also use standard fans as long as there is enough airflow at low fan speeds
One of my newer PC's has a PVM fan on the CPU cooler. The other PC (that which is overclocked) has standard 3-pin fans (2x140mm) on a very big Noctua CPU cooler, but it has one 120mm PVM fan in front and one in the back of the case. The airflow of these fans is directly over the CPU cooler and adds extra cooling for extreme situations. Since the case is ventilated extremely well (with the help of three additional 3-pin fans, 2x140mm and 1x120mm), the PVM fans are running usually at low speeds and don't change their speeds often unless you are going for heavy number crunching.
It's certainly not something which I'd do for a PC specifically intended for audio. It's really about additional savety for the overclocked PC. It's almost impossible to overheat this PC, even if I'd go beyond 4.2GHz. Some have reached nearly 5GHz with similar configurations, at least the cooling would be capable for that. But I don't like to go to those extreme limits. It's not a good idea for the lifespan of the components. 4.2GHz is a very moderate overclock for a good cooled i5-2500K, it's easily reachable and it doesn't hurt this CPU at all. I've undervolted the CPU also to save additional energy and to reduce the heat dissipation further.
Regarding radiators: Real water cooling (which means you have at least of 2 liters coolant) is costly and time consuming and you have the latent risk of a coolant leak. The small all-in-one water cooling kits which have been sold recently have only a small amount of coolant and do not offer the same performance. The risk of a coolant leak is also present, but it's only a very limited amount of coolant.
Water cooling would be nice, of course, and if you choose the radiator large enough, you can also go for completely fanless. This excludes the all-in-one water cooling kits of course.
The main problem is probably the cost of water cooling. IIRC, it's a important for you to go as cheap as possible.
For high-performance rigs, I can only repeat that you should go for a better case and a good new PSU. It makes no sense to go for water cooling and to stick with the corroded small case and the tiny old PSU.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 26, 2012 13:32:08 GMT
This Dell Vostro as reference for cooling? That's a standard mass-produced computer which offers nothing special. Certainly not high-performance cooling. But it is enough to run it, sure.
Regarding the PSU: 350W PSU in the Dell is much newer than your old one. It's specs are probably much better and the difference pratice will be bigger than only the difference in the wattage.
There are cheap 500W PSU sold which offer LESS power below the line as the 380W PSU I'm using in my second (not overclocked) PC.
350-400W is already enough for most PCs. But you can forget about overclocking then and you can't use high-end graphics cards. If you go for entry level and some midrange graphics cards, 350-400W is absolutely fine.
Even the 380W PSU in one of my PCs has still rather big reserves, but I'm using the CPU only at stock speed and the GPU (graphics card) is only a very basic passive cooled one.
Before you decide on the case, PSU and the neeeded cooling, you need to know which components (CPU, mainboard, GPU, additional add-in cards etc.) you'll use. After that you can roughly calculate the PSU size and how much cooling is needed.
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Post by elysion on Jul 26, 2012 13:38:34 GMT
700W is already overkill for most applications. My overclocked rig uses a 560W Seasonic X-series PSU. That's more than enough.
You can absolutely FORGET your old case for a 700W ATX PSU and high-performance components.
You won't find an appropirate linear or toroid PSU. First of all, such a PSU would be very big and heavy. But you need also different voltages (at least 3.3V, 5V and 12V). You'd end with a bunch of big, heavey linear or toroid PSUs and you'd have a lot of work.
A silent, low-cost audiophile PC also suited for moderate gaming? Certainly NOT with a 700W PSU and a old corroded case with bad ventilation.
First of all, choose the mainboard, CPU, RAM and GPU you want to use. Everything else is depending on that decision.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 21:56:43 GMT
Chong Modern CPUs are far more energy efficient than those old clunkers. There are heaps of readily available 500 or 550W PSUs around with the modern connectors needed , often they aren't with captive leads either which aids air flow. In general,internal DIY Linear PSUs of >100W or so aren't really feasible due to their size and the amount of heatsinking required. To my mind,unfortunately you have very little of value worth salvaging Alex
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 26, 2012 23:09:49 GMT
If the main goal would be a computer optimised for audio playback, then it wouldn't be necessary to have a lot of processing power and it would be possible to find a motherboard with (for example) a 12V DC input and hence it would be possible to use a linear or toroid PSU. You could also use some 12V DC to ATX-connector adapters, but these are quite costly and not always easy to get (but you could choose also from low-power mainboards with and ATX connector).
The C.A. article about the "audiophile" computer is describing such a system. But they have used a low quality mainboard though, while they've took a very costly enclosure. To make it really stupid, they've used a cheap and dirty external SMPS.
If you can do without gaming, then you can go this way and you can avoid the errors which the C.A. idiots have done. I.e. to choose a mainboard with better quality and a linear or toroid PSU. For such a system, even your old case would do the job. I'd still recommend to use another case, but it would be possible since heat dissipation wouldn't be a real problem. Such a system wouln't be very powerful though and certainly not suited for serious gaming.
Below the line, you have only the possibilty to choose from a few mainboards using Atom's, AMD E-350/E-450, A-series APU's and some low-power i3 CPU's for that purpose.
Even a Mini-ITX board with just one PCI or PCI-E slot should do that job since you can then use for example an audio card from the ASUS Xonar series. I've made very good experiences with the Xonar Essence STX (for PCI-E). The Xonar Essence ST is the variant for PCI. Both have also a top-notch internal headphone amp and RCA output. The analog output section is specially shielded. It's dead silent even with a standard ATX PSU.
That's probably another thing where Alex and I will agree: The ASUS Xonar audio cards are great.
I guess, you'd be the first one to have a Xonar which is fed by a linear or toroid PSU if you'd go this way.
Audio quality with the Xonar cards will be still good if you go for a faster PC with a standard ATX-PSU. I can't complain, even when using some PVM fans. But really, my PC's haven't been optimised specially for audio. They're more for general purpose with high performance in mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 1:16:16 GMT
Hi Javier Care to expand on this one ? Items such as Motherboard,PSU rating, amount and details of RAM etc. ? Kind Regards Alex
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 27, 2012 2:16:15 GMT
Ok, guys, thanks for all the replies. Now I have some basis to work on what I need. Surely, I can't use back all the parts from the old PC, as I had already stated first hand, as that will be outdated from current and also it will not be enough to fuel what I need in a dedicated 3D AV + gaming rig. Btw, what I need is a PC that is just more than enough (maybe with a 30% leeway) to do the job competently without failure for it's intended life cycle. I don't need all the SOTA cooling to make a super noisy PC for audio especially. What I need is a super quiet dedicated AV + Gaming PC. Things will always change for the better and that is the only constant. Btw, so far I don't have any home PC failures except for the perhaps memory failure that kaput the last PC only after tinkering with it. As it's already very old, I changed it totally for a new. Buying a branded PC does have it's advantage as it's already configured optimumly to work from the box and also we have guarantee and support as well for at least 1 year. Surely not an assembled PC, as what I'm doing now, where I have to read tons and tons of info before I can zero in on overcoming the needs requirement and problems that can arise along the way. As those branded PCs are a package deal of an assemby, it's about the same price or even slightly less total for a diy assembly. So a preliminary AV PC with Gaming plan list: 1) Reengineer and renovate the old PC casing to feed modern cool (fans) to a retro. If still cannot be used, I donate to father Earth! 2) 1 Noctua front 140mm fan and exhaust fan use the PSU fan. 3) 1 CPU heatsink and fan or 1 Radiator CPU Cooling unit depending on what CPU finally. For the latter, almost no choice for AMD. Intel core, plenty. 4) CPU obviously must be from an i7 (maybe 3770 or 3770K Ivy Bridge but only 4 core, damn it! ) or AMD 8 or 6 core (FX8150 and 8120 respectively) after some preliminary research as gaming is involved. All options here almost the same price. AMD 8 core + MB is much cheaper than a similar i7 6 core + MB. Yeah, I know that the Intel 6 core is much less power hungry and much faster too. Anyway, no retailer is selling an i7 6 core + MB as way too expensive for home use. Btw, looking for MB with USB3, Thunderbolt and Lan Aggregation + Jumbo if VFM enough. As to which MB, haven't talked to the guys or researched yet on the topic. But I can get the usual suspects of Asus, MSI, Gigabyte. Biostar, AsRock easily in Singapore. CPU actually wanted to try an AMD as I already have 2 Intels, one i7 asnd i5. Don't tell me try i3 too as I wouldn't. 5) DDR3 RAM max out according to the MB. Must check price to see which speed is the most VFM to decide what RAMs. 6) Temporary use a Seagate 250GB HDD that I will take out from the NAS until I can get a cheap SSD of 250 to 500GB. 7) According to preliminary research from the good and helpful guys from other forums + Javier, a Nvidia GPU has the edge over ATI in gaming. Haven't fully research in a Nvidia that can do 3D. I actually wanted an ATI as I already have a Nvidia GT220 that can do 3D without surround in the Dell. 8) Seasonic X 560/660/760. I read during the research that there are Seasonic fanless 440/460. That's interesting. Are those any good in terms of reliability? 10) Sound card temporary use onboard MB as will be outputing to an AV controller later thru USB or Thunderbolt if possible. So no sound card. 11) OS, the trial beta version of Win 8 as we must have softwares to do what I need too. I actually wanted a Linux but of the usual said and asked makes me think again ................? Btw, do we still have download of the trial Win 8? 12) Temporary use a Razer Star War Gaming keyboard until I can get a good wireless gaming one as the sweet spot is some distance away from where the PC will be finally placed. That's the plan. So still must have Money Is Enough to execute. But it's always good to plan as that will take time to finalise your dream thru the different iterations of brainstorming.
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Post by elysion on Jul 27, 2012 4:31:33 GMT
You certainly don't need an i7 for gaming. The i5-2500K I'm using is one of the most popular gamer CPUs around. The hyper-threading and large cache of the i7's doesn't give much additional benefit, but it costs more.
You can even play most modern games very well with one of the better i3's as long as it is paired with a meaty graphics card.
Many games even do not use more than two CPU cores.
What I really don't get: I was thinking you are on a budget since you are jobless at the moment. What you are talking about currently is more of a high-end gaming rig. What I don't get also: Why keep the crappy old case and invest in high-end components? Sorry, that's just ridiculous. The old case is a no-no for the components you're talking in the last post. Is that so hard to understand? You can't fit the components properly in it and adequate cooling isn't possible at all for high-end components.
AMD FX8150 and FX8120 are about the worst deals out at the moment. They get REALLY hot with a TDP of 125W. But they are SLOW on most tasks. Even an i5-2500K is much faster for most tasks than AMD's current flagships. An intel 6-core SandyBride-E is absolutely OVERKILL for gaming. You won't get much faster since the games don't use six cores. Most don't even use four cores. It's also senseless to pair some high-end components with other components out of the crap department. Instead of tossing out money for a CPU or PSU overkill, you'd better spend the saved money on a SSD. Below the line, you'd get a faster and more balanced system.
You can save a lot of money if you get a system that really fits your needs. But I guess you don't even know what you really want.
I'll stop to give any more advice since it seems absolutely senseless to me.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 27, 2012 5:26:19 GMT
Hi Christian,
Sometimes I also find you getting onto the ridiculous. Didn't I wrote only for planning. When did I say excuting the dream? Only after Money Is Enough will I follow the dream. Doesn't mean a plan will not evolute. It will with better understanding and advise from others.
Anyway, I think I can better advice in other forums and others than from you as they do consider individual needs and requirements as well and not purely from a guru direct down onto one. So be it. But I will continue to write what I have in mind here just like you also write yours in your threads.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 5:48:57 GMT
I didn't say NVidia cards were the best for gaming, I just said the one I had for gaming was from that brand (275GTX, enough for the resolutions I play at). In fact, ATI make some very nice high end cards. Each brand has its pros and its cons, there are some who swear by one and other people swear by the other, it really is down to personal experience in most cases.
If you already have an i7 I'd recommend you turn that into a video/gaming PC, by upgrading the PSU and adding a middle or high end graphics card, and build or buy another dedicated PC for general purpose and audio.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 6:00:33 GMT
Given that low ESR electrolytics operating at relatively high temperatures have a limited service life, has anybody replaced the main reservoir caps in a P.C.'s SMPS PSU that is several years old ? Alex
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jul 27, 2012 8:15:00 GMT
The first question needed is what do you need the computer to do? A video/gaming pc. ? can be two separate needs. To process video to display/play a movie can be done on a dual core atom with ion pcb for graphics. "a dual core atom with ion pcb for graphics" for gaming? ? buckley's chance, no way. A new A8 trinity for this ok, with the ability for low to moderate gaming. A pc for gaming priority, "a AMD 8 or 6 core (FX8150 and 8120)" would be ok, or i5-2500K is better for overclocking gaming, i7 overkill, but any of these still needs a graphics card, and a good one, ATI or Nvidia doesn't matter, for top end gaming, the fastest you can afford. I myself prefer ATI video cards, for me, Nvidia drivers lost the plot, but then I don't do games anymore. Also with the graphics card you need a decent psu. Like Javier said, The i7 pc you have now, want do you use it for? do you need all it's power? Also, what do you need your own pc to do? word, excel, internet browsing? You don't need an i7 to do that./ Allan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 8:21:14 GMT
PWM Fan control specifications. The attached shows why I don't much like M/B PWM control of fans. Downstream Voltage Regulators are relatively ineffective at rejecting a nominal 25kHZ pulse train. Alex Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 8:50:08 GMT
A commercial product designed to reduce PWM fan control electrical noise.They retail for around US$45. Attachments:
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 27, 2012 9:15:41 GMT
I didn't say NVidia cards were the best for gaming, I just said the one I had for gaming was from that brand (275GTX, enough for the resolutions I play at). In fact, ATI make some very nice high end cards. Each brand has its pros and its cons, there are some who swear by one and other people swear by the other, it really is down to personal experience in most cases. Ok, I stand corrected. But those local computer nerds are voting for Nvidia at number 1 for gaming locally. If you already have an i7 I'd recommend you turn that into a video/gaming PC, by upgrading the PSU and adding a middle or high end graphics card, and build or buy another dedicated PC for general purpose and audio. That makes sense as well. I had also thought about that before here. But I'm planning to build another better PC anyway than what I already have now so that I can have one DT upstair in my room for general, AV + gaming and one highend one to show off downstair in the living hall. Of course, this is only when fund permits. I'm not a spendthrift at this moment. That Dell was for my bedroom, btw. Also, it makes no olala challenging sense to me to build another about the same std PC as what I have now. Anyway, I have to mode the Dell to reduce the heat further if I change to another better GPU and stronger but hotter PSU. I don't quite feel easy about the current configuration of back fan inside. I think I will go look for a Noctua 140mm and put that as a front fan and removed the back fan as that will already be redundant and making more noise. I think I will do that for now as it really makes sense at a low cost until I can get the other PC, to be heavily reengineered and renovated, up at turbo rate. I already have the JRiver in that Dell. Hmm, need to get a 3D Bluray drive too to feed 3D bluray into the Samsung TV. But no AV controller with decoder yet. So haved to make do with just the onboard sound card ICT Realtek dac at 96-24 for sound. So no surround or audiophile sound yet. Thanks Javier for pushing me into that direction.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 27, 2012 9:18:30 GMT
Given that low ESR electrolytics operating at relatively high temperatures have a limited service life, has anybody replaced the main reservoir caps in a P.C.'s SMPS PSU that is several years old ? It makes sense and it's not very expensive to change to better ones to be into some audiphile SMPS credentials.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 27, 2012 9:33:22 GMT
Like Javier said, The i7 pc you have now, want do you use it for? do you need all it's power? All you guys are perfectly correct. I will do that for the moment. But need to mode the back fan as I'm not totally easy with the new task on hand for this Dell. Christian, as you can see, the plan can change just like that as it makes real sense. But I will still go for a new retro build much later on. Anyway, that is an KIV plan until Money Is Enough again.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 10:01:59 GMT
If you are getting a powerful high end graphics card don't worry about the potential extra heat because it'll come with (extremely noisy) fans that will expel unwanted hot air out of the case through vents placed where the external connectors are, at least that is what most double slot cards work.
The PSU will also take care of itself with its own fan unless you go for a fanless one, which I wouldn't recommend on a gaming PC. A fanless PSU like the Seasonic FL's will be great for an electricity "frugal" audio PC like mine, the only problem is they are quite expensive.
For HQ video (HTPC) I actually use fanless ATI cards (HD5450 and HD4670). As Allan says they have better drivers.
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Post by elysion on Jul 27, 2012 10:04:03 GMT
Your plans and demands have changed every second post. That's the problem. It's impossible to give good advice then.
I'm out of this thread.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 27, 2012 10:04:19 GMT
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 27, 2012 11:11:05 GMT
If you are getting a powerful high end graphics card don't worry about the potential extra heat because it'll come with (extremely noisy) fans that will expel unwanted hot air out of the case through vents placed where the external connectors are, at least that is what most double slot cards work. Od, o, extremely noisy fans? I will try to get one max to without fan before crossing over to fan if possible. Yeah, I know, the small and high velocity pressure type of fans. Why can't they just have the low pressure but large flow rate large fan? The PSU will also take care of itself with its own fan unless you go for a fanless one, which I wouldn't recommend on a gaming PC. A fanless PSU like the Seasonic FL's will be great for an electricity "frugal" audio PC like mine, the only problem is they are quite expensive. I agree with you again. It's always safer with fan for a high demand AV + Gaming PC. But I don't quite understand why you guys in Europe are so concern with power saving. Power there very expensive? Anyway, fanless is only available for 400 or 460W. So cannot meet my "specs". For HQ video (HTPC) I actually use fanless ATI cards (HD5450 and HD4670). As Allan says they have better drivers. Really this is a hard decision for me as I have a Nvidia as well as an ATI now. The ATI is quite a high end one in the laptop. ATI HD6470.
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