elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 25, 2012 13:46:13 GMT
I've had a look on the pics of your old PC. Is your intention to reuse some of the parts of that PC for a cheap new one?
Unfortunately, it will difficult to reuse most of the parts:
- The case has only bad ventilation. No fans beside the intake fan on the front and the exhaust fan on the back (integrated in the PSU). This is not sufficient for most motherboards and CPU's. The front bezel of the case has a nice shape though. But to get rid of the corrosion and to clean it will be lot of work. This makes not much sense since new cases can be bought very cheap depending on the model.
- The PSU has also signs of corrosion. Outside is no problem IMO, but corrosion inside would be a no-no. 250W is not enough for a gaming rig of any kind. The PSU also lacks some really needed connectors (24-pin ATX 1.3 instead of the older 20-pin ATX and you'd also need a separate 4pin ATX power-connector (this could be solved by a 4-pin ATX to 4-pin Molex adapter).
- The slot guard with the USB ports could be reused if it is at least USB 2.0 compatible. Since the old mainboard has no USB 2.0 (it's just to old for that and you've already used an additional USB 2.0 card), I have doubts it will work with USB 2.0. You'll need to try it if you find no markings on it.
IMO, the only option to reuse the case and PSU would be a Mini-ITX or Micro-ATX motherboard with a low-power on-board CPU like an intel Atom or an AMD E-350/E-450 (Zacate/Brazos). This boards don't draw a lot of power and usually work fine even with a 20-pin ATX connector, but you'll have to get also an additional 4-pin ATX to 4-pin Molex adapter.
To be honest, I wouldn't go for this old case and PSU. It makes only very limited sense to spend money for reusing this old case. Even with some Atom or Zacate/Brazos boards, you'll run into thermal troubles, especially in the hot climate of Singapore.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 25, 2012 14:44:35 GMT
Actually, what kind of ventilation requirements you are talking about here for a high power CPU? Any picture example. See whether I can modify it to suit. Radiator cooling too if needed like yours. It's not about the monetary saving but reusing and having a one of its kind unique customised turbo charged AV PC of my own so different from others if possible to safe this beloveth planet. Well, kind of remind us of Chris's amps. Works of art. For this PC casing, if possible, I will start off with a modern retro look. Well, CoolRetroVille! When not feasible, sorry Earth!
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 25, 2012 20:51:15 GMT
Actually, what kind of ventilation requirements you are talking about here for a high power CPU? Any picture example. See whether I can modify it to suit. Radiator cooling too if needed like yours. It's not about the monetary saving but reusing and having a one of its kind unique customised turbo charged AV PC of my own so different from others if possible to safe this beloveth planet. Well, kind of remind us of Chris's amps. Works of art. For this PC casing, if possible, I will start off with a modern retro look. Well, CoolRetroVille! When not feasible, sorry Earth! You can't modifiy that case to suit. You'd have to built a new case instead. It simply doesn't fit. Modern cases have the PSU at the bottom of the case and have fan ventilation in the front, in the back and at the top of the case. Often also in the side panels. You can go much cheaper when buying an appropriate new case. It really doesn't make sense to reuse your old case for the purpose you want. Cooling is a very important issue and the space in your case is also very limited. Modern cases offers also room behind the motherboard to get rid of the cables in the ventilation area. BTW: I don't use radiators. My cases are completely air cooled. Personally, I prefer cases from Fractal Design at the moment. I have two of their ARC Mini cases, which offer excellent value and very good ventilaton options. Radiators are used for water cooling though. Real water cooling is a quite complex matter. The all-in-one water cooling units which have been sold recently don't offer even equal performance when compared to high-end air cooling solutions. Noctua is a very good address for premium air coolers. www.fractal-design.com/noctua.at/main.php?show=start
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 25, 2012 20:56:44 GMT
My flagship rig is using four 140mm fans, four 120mm fans and also a fan in the PSU (also a 120mm type I guess). A small gaming rig doesn't need so much fans. But forget anything like your old case. You simply can't provide adequate cooling with it. At least unless you are willing to create a totally new metal frame and if you'd only reuse the front bezel... My CPU doesn't gets hand-hot most of the time although it is overclocked. That's only possible with an effective cooling system.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 21:28:18 GMT
If the fans are PWM speed controlled from the MB you can forget using it for highest quality audio .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 21:50:55 GMT
I have one PC for gaming and Video duties and another for general prupose and audio. The former is a quite powerful (Core i7, NVidia GTX card, 8 x 3.5"HDDs), very noisy machine that needs lots of power. The later is a modest Core i3 2100 with a huge Scythe Ninja Silent Edition heat sink/cooler, encased 2.5" HDDs, integrated graphics and a HQ Seasonic PS. This audio PC is virtually silent (the PS fan doesn't turn untill a certain wattage is drawn, no case fans, HDD cases block the already whisper quiet drives, etc), needs very little power and doesn't warm up the room.
Note: On my audio PC the only fan is constant speed (12cm, 700rpm) no PWM control whatsoever.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 25, 2012 21:52:23 GMT
If the fans are PWM speed controlled from the MB you can forget using it for highest quality audio . This computer is NOT intended for audio mainly. It has some PVM fans. Three to be exact. The main goal with this one was PERFORMANCE inside a budget and without too much energy needed. The Xonar inside it is still dead-silent though. The used PSU will certainly also a factor. I'm using a Seasonc X-560, which is still the reference for computer PSU's. VRM on the mainboard are digitally controlled also. Overclocking isn't needed for audio. Audio doesn't have very high demands for the computer speed, of course with the exception of music producers. They need also high performance but they need it for effects, filters and various channels that are played at the same time. Alone the "sound" of the air that flows through the case makes it not exactly silent, but it is not bad for a high-performance computer. Building a PC specific for audiophile purposes would also include to make it as silent as possible. Chong can't reach that goal with a computer that should also play BF3 well (unless he goes for low details and/or framerate). Chong's demands will need a compromise. BTW: Alex, you can forget your computer even for average audio demands. A crappy mainboard with RAM that is not intended for such a plain-vanilla mainboard makes no good computer. You are FAR away from having a reference computer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 22:13:49 GMT
Christian I don't claim to have a reference computer. The SQ of audio from my PC has already been judged by quite a few RG members and others, via numerous uploads and even a Corsair Voyager USB memory stick that is presently in the U.K. as well as at several listening sessions through gear that most RG members couldn't afford. John Kenny and the developers of jPlay have also heard uploads from my PC.Martin Colloms has heard uploads from my PC, and ranked the playback ( despite minor loss of SQ due to transmission) of Dire Straits-Love Over Gold tracks as among the best he has heard through his very expensive system. One of his listening panel stated it was the best he had ever heard that track through M.C.s system.BTW, M.C. has heard the master of that recording. Alex
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 25, 2012 22:42:12 GMT
Your music files have been judged. Not your PC. Most RG members don't live near you. As you know, not everyone agrees with you on that topic also. It's not my intention to start a new trench war, but it's a fact that your PC has some problems. I've also stated that I'll help you to cure those problems without spending much money. It's my intention to help you with that problem, I can understand that tossing out money isn't easy for a pensioner and that money will be spent preferably on your next computer. I can't promise if/when I find appropriate memory for you, but at least the shipping will not cost a fortune. I've told also more than once that my newer PCs aren't intended for audio mainly. The Xonar card in them is just for listening while I'm at the computer. It's always a question of what you want to do with a computer. A system for only audiophiles purposes will have to be as silent as possible IMO, but this is often not possible when the same computer should serve other purposes too. Gaming for example is mainly about high-performance and not about audiophile quality audio and silence. Chong's demands will probably need to make a compromise. He's also on a budget. In the end, it's Chong's decision which route he will go. I can only give advice if asked for. Silence and performance are not the only factors though. One of my main goals when building computers is to make something that will last. Lower temps are very beneficial for electronic components as we all know. The Pentium D 830 system which I have around is mostly for fun as stated earlier in this thread. It's almost impossible to cool this beast appropriate without going for a water cooler. Even after a lot of modding, the temps are still way to high for my taste, but I won't spend money on that computers. I've used only parts which I had already lying around somewhere. Alex, you can pray that my Pentium D 830 system will see it's end somewhen due to thermal problems. This because it has exactly the memory you'd need in it. But I can't give it unless the system would be dead. I've did everything to avoid a heat related death of this beast and I hope it will still work for a couple of years. Unless that PC is dying, I'll have to search for other DIMMs. It's not impossible though, but I need some luck to find the right used parts for free.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Jul 25, 2012 23:04:33 GMT
I say set it on fire and shoot it to make sure!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 23:46:50 GMT
I say set it on fire and shoot it to make sure! ;D Judging from the pictures someone has already tried drowning it!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 1:09:44 GMT
Christian Unlike most European mambers of RG, I have several Sydney friends who are RG members and are employed in I.T. 3 of those members employed in the I.T. area have both verified my claims directly from my PC, and at listening sessions at another RG members place, who is an Engineer with Telstra mobiles. Geoff in particular has helped me out on several occasions due to Network set up problems and elimination of a nasty Russian virus some time back. I already have a wealth of expertise in this area that I can fall back on when needed . As to be expected, these friends were originally highly sceptical of my reported findings due to their employment background and training. They are also aware of which readily available local components are good value and also best suited to my special requirements. As far as normal day to day operation of this existing PC goes, it has been very reliable and performs well, despite only having 2GB of internal RAM. Neither has it needed a fresh OS install in it's several years of operation, although I do achknowledge that this would further improve performance. I have also received reports that the latest Macs using the faster Intel Processors do not sound as good as a 2010 model. I trust the ears of my friend from Costa Rica in this matter. I also agree with comments posted in C.A. recently by Barry Diament that USB Audio is flawed.My friend from Costa Rica has come to the same conclusion also. However, it is cheap and easy for the industry to provide. www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/new-advice-please-12774/ post 22 by Barry Diament. Note also the reply from the original poster (reply 18) after he decided to try both flac and wav for himself. Alex
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 26, 2012 2:21:22 GMT
I don't read that C.A. crap. The article mentioned by Chong about that "audiophile" PC was revealing enough. It's wasted time IMO. (And a lot of wasted money if someone goes for this kind of "audiophile" PC). BTW: Perhaps there is a difference in audio quality with different iMac generations, but I don't think it's related to the used processors. It's probaly more the sum of the components in the box. You can't change single components in an iMac, so you have to stay with what is inside. I don't understand why you are quoting some stuff about iMacs here. First off, I've never had an iMac and I have absolutely no intention to get one. I don't like them, to be honest. Apple is basically putting a lot of electronics is a small and badly ventilated box and is running the whole stuff often at the temperature limit of the components. Not a good idea IMO. It's still a fact that you have a flawed PC and the memory isn't appropriate for that board. You told me also what troubles you had in the BIOS. It's a clear thing: You have a memory problem. 2GB for W7 is also not enough. W7 swaps also with 4GB quite often. Even more with 2GB. You are also using some memory hungry programs IIRC. The "ReadyBoost" solution with the USB stick is IMO absolutely ridiculous. Get a SSD instead and you'll notice how ridiculous that "ReadyBoost" workaround is. No one beside M$ supports such dirty tricks. With good reason IMO. But you don't have to care. Dream on.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 2:34:52 GMT
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 26, 2012 3:07:55 GMT
You'd have to built a new case instead. It simply doesn't fit. That's what I will do to get ready as Money No Enough still to start a new build. Time is on my side. Also, I like modifying things especially when I was much younger. That will be more a work of art and love. Not so much science behind though to disappoint Frans. Hmm, it seems there is still an urge deep inside still. The worst case scenario is just buy a new case when project fails. Modern cases have the PSU at the bottom of the case and have fan ventilation in the front, in the back and at the top of the case. Often also in the side panels. Ok, noted for the modification. Just must buy super quiet fans. Cooler Master good enough? Noctua, maybe also in Singapore. Just have to find out where. But is the Noctua active noise cancellation fans out yet? That will be excellent as I need a super quiet Computer AV PC as this will be placed in the main hall. Perhaps, I will double box it like a car silencer to reduce noise to dead silence. Let me think what I can come out with ingeniously. Of curse, I will post it here when done. Modern cases offers also room behind the motherboard to get rid of the cables in the ventilation area. BTW: I don't use radiators. My cases are completely air cooled.... Radiators are used for water cooling though. Real water cooling is a quite complex matter. The all-in-one water cooling units which have been sold recently don't offer even equal performance when compared to high-end air cooling solutions. Noctua is a very good address for premium air coolers. Noted and so it will be for the mode as well with an additional cooling fan underneath the MB. Water (or Coolant) cooling radiator will be an option when result not as what is expected. From first hand, instead of reading at Noctua site, what is their lowest noise figure for a 120mm or 140mm fan? Cooler Master already have some at 13 dbA. I will decide what size and how many later to fit later. Have to do some planning and case reengineering into an old hat case.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 26, 2012 3:13:57 GMT
I say set it on fire and shoot it to make sure! My army days are already long over and gone!
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 26, 2012 3:19:16 GMT
If the fans are PWM speed controlled from the MB you can forget using it for highest quality audio . Sorry, I'm definitely missing something there. Why not if fans are required out of necessity? Fanless will be still the ultimate. Fans just go faster when hot and slower when cooler. So save power and also less noise when at slower speed instead of contant higher fan noise.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 3:37:56 GMT
If the fans are PWM speed controlled from the MB you can forget using it for highest quality audio . Sorry, I'm definitely missing something there. Why not if fans are required out of necessity? Fanless will be still the ultimate. Fans just go faster when hot and slower when cooler. So save power and also less noise when at slower speed instead of contant higher fan noise. Chong Linear control of a fan's speed is a far better, but more costly way to control a fan's speed than Pulse Width Modulation. These large pulses of current reflect throughout the electrical system. The more PWM controlled fans you use, the more noise through the whole electrical system.Also, after a period of use, even quiet aftermarket fans can become much noisier due to the continuous pulsing. At the front of a PC for example, where you may wish to ensure the HDDs are well cooled, it may be better to use something like 2 x 80mm 12V fans in series running off the normal +12V supply. This will enable not only quiet running and longevity ( provided the fans are periodically cleaned) but good cooling too. Some aftermarket fans are also capable of having their speed adjusted either manually by a supplied rheostat , or using a supplied thermistor.Some of these can even be used to replace the processor's fan. Alex
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 26, 2012 3:44:22 GMT
Judging from the pictures someone has already tried drowning it! Eh, you don't like strip tease?
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 26, 2012 4:03:20 GMT
These large pulses of current reflect throughout the electrical system. Er, after Vreg? That will not be as bad as what we think if the Vreg can supply fast changing current demand. That's why I always like super oversize PSU like Will's PS PCBs that can do 5A. I will use that for all smalll current demand devices in diy. The more PWM controlled fans you use, the more noise through the whole electrical system.Also, after a period of use, even quiet aftermarket fans can become much noisier due to the continuous pulsing. At the front of a PC for example, where you may wish to ensure the HDDs are well cooled, it may be better to use something like 2 x 80mm 12V fans in series running off the normal +12V supply. This will enable not only quiet running and longevity ( provided the fans are periodacally cleaned) but good cooling too. Agreed as anything more will definitely increase noise. Can't get away from that and from fanless. Actually, not only all cheap fans but also after market fans, even the renown Noctua, will sound like any MIC fans after a period of time. Some aftermarket fans are also capable of having their speed adjusted either manually by a supplied rheostat , or using a supplied thermistor.Some of these can even be used to replace the processor's fan. But then we lost the varying fan speed of the computer control to go faster or slower according to demand.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 26, 2012 4:04:08 GMT
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 26, 2012 4:12:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 4:24:28 GMT
The thermistor is taped to the CPU heatsink, and I expect it would also be a relatively fast response type.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 26, 2012 4:25:24 GMT
Come to think of it. A radiator cooler + fan approach will be better than a more fans approach as I need as quiet as possible since this will be a computer AV project. With a radiator, I can reduce the number of fans needed and, hence, proportionalely less noise (air draft and fan noise). Btw, MB is there different sizes or just std sizes? I just want to make sure that my old hat can fit in a turbo young soul.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 5:49:03 GMT
Chong I would expect that the PWM pulses have quite abrupt rise and fall times. Normal VRegs are relatively ineffective at filtering SMPS or higher frequencies. Alex
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