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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 19:51:16 GMT
Actually, Mike. Israel has a point. I think that we need to reimburse you postage costs since you're sending out ten.
I'm always very aware that you're posting and paying when you just send stuff out to me and it all mounts up for you.
We mustn't take it for granted.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 19:51:43 GMT
It will be fun to read how the HD661 measures up to the MDR-7506. I can only compare it to other headphones... Superlux is quite confident it will judging from their request. After the 'if needed?' modding, my HD661 will be touring The Neverlands (funk 1969 & proglover). If very good sounding it will return to my domicile (I hope), otherwise it will be touring some more and see some other countries perhaps. The other one I am about to receive already has found a home. Shipping things is expensive and also feel Mike should not have to pay for it. I hope he doesn't need to pay import duties as well .. It should be 'included' in the audition offer that those that want to audition it pay for the postage. Seems only fair.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 19:59:16 GMT
Actually, Mike. Israel has a point. I think that we need to reimburse you postage costs since you're sending out ten. I'm always very aware that you're posting and paying when you just send stuff out to me and it all mounts up for you. We mustn't take it for granted. Ian +1 from me on this one too. Dave.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 20:14:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 21:26:08 GMT
never heard the 7506 nor the 7509
I would say the 7509 is great for monitoring but not very suited for hifi reproduction. The 7509 should be more like a HD25 but with less pronounced bass. female vocals and instruments should sound good or pronounced on the 7506 Bass could be on the lean side but still reach reasonably deep. It shouldn't have a very warm Sennheiser like character at all. There is not much superhighs around, above 12kHz there is not much there. the peak at around 10 kHz should still give the impression it doesn't lack highs extension... but it does.
Strange thing is I do not see the highs peak which Superlux claims the 7506 has (in their brochure). You seem to be reporting the same peak as Superlux claims there is (and is also present in the HD661).
IF it IS there I can correct it with a filter (perhaps you can directly use the HD681 filter)
The HD25 should sound a lot like an 7509 but with bass and grunt.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 22:20:24 GMT
I'll give it a good hammering for a week Frans since it is quite 'steely' up top at the moment. Great at low volume but gradually gets more steely as you get louder.
Mids feel a little down. Bass is there but less impact than some.
If the treble becomes less steely with time, it would be a really nice headphone.
It's very analytical or even clinical.
I'll see if I'm able to hear any changes after some solid pink noise.
Frans, you couldn't have seen an earlier message from me concerning the filter. I lost it in my move six months ago along with some other bits and I asked if you could make another and what the cost would be.
I feel that the Sonys could benefit even after a good run in.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 6:09:27 GMT
Didn't know, didn't see the post. I'll see what I can come up with.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 8:14:58 GMT
I also said if you were busy Frans, don't worry. I suspect that the movers took all kinds of things that I'm not aware of yet and the little things like your Superlux and 120ohm filters and other bits of wire just got lost in all the upheaval.
I'll be more careful next time.
I just assumed you may be up to your neck in work etc., Frans.
female vocals and instruments should sound good or pronounced on the 7506 Bass could be on the lean side but still reach reasonably deep. It shouldn't have a very warm Sennheiser like character at all. There is not much superhighs around, above 12kHz there is not much there. the peak at around 10 kHz should still give the impression it doesn't lack highs extension... but it does.
Strange thing is I do not see the highs peak which Superlux claims the 7506 has (in their brochure). You seem to be reporting the same peak as Superlux claims there is (and is also present in the HD661).
That's pretty much what I'm getting Frans. I've had it on pink noise since I got it yesterday morning and the top doesn't seem to tame. The Superlux brochure is probably referring to what they 'hear' because the graph that I saw on Headroom don't paint a picture of what I hear. (Could it be impedance over the range?)
This morning I tried it on a range of amps and can't get that treble 'tamed'.
With some really concentrated early morning listening, I feel that the balance of sound is skewed on the Sony (unless it settles with time)
Initial feelings are somewhat along these lines:
The bass is there. Not massive but it is 'dettached' from the rest of the sound, so you get the impression of bass because it's separate. However, it doesn't go that low imo.
The highs are dominant and a bit 'steely.' In fact, I can't listen too loud on them before the highs become too much.
The mids seem sucked away which is something I'm most disappointed with. Voices seem distant in the mix as a result.
My feelings are that if 'somewhere' in the treble range, it could be lowered first of all so that the top matches better with the mids, it would be a more balanced headphone. (Then sort the bass out)
I think the treble needs more pulling down than the Superlux HD681.
So, if Superlux are referring to the raised treble hump which doesn't show on the graph, then they must be using their ears because it is there!!
I'm not sure that I could use them to monitor in all honesty. They are revealing for sure (Because of that treble) but the balance of BMH doesn't seem quite right to me. (Bass/Mid/High)
Unless it changes dramatically with further playing and relaxes a bit. If it does relax, it would be fine.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 9:58:36 GMT
It seems the graphs from Superlux do describe what you are hearing more so than the graphs from headroom. Superlux did actually measure them and did a better job than headroom ? Mind you, headroom uses an algorithm to 'translate' the measured data to a graph that 'displays' how we perceive things. The 'raw' data is quite 'misleading' and therefor it is 'converted' to how we perceive it. This is done for ALL graphs they have. Superlux does this too, but probably uses different test gear with different 'interpretation' algorithmes. Anyway, the Superlux graphs do show more 'sucked out mids'. The headroom graph (not the Superlux graph) would indicate female voices would be more 'natural' than male voices. Judging from the Superlux graphs both headphones need a filter. Judging from the headroom graphs it shouldn't. Seems your ears tell you it needs a filter, as does my suspicions. Let's hope the Superlux one does sound better of can be posueded with minimal effort to be better.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 10:15:38 GMT
Frans - have Superlux published an FR response for the Sony?
I'm curious because I'm really not hearing what the Headroom graph portrays. The bass portion is closer to what I hear but mids and treble are quite a way away from what's drawn.
They remind me very much so (in looks) of the Beyer DT250. I think the Beyer (from memory) is perhaps better. The Sonys give a 'cold' view of the music. (If that makes sense) Some people may call this accurate (aka K701) but I'm not convinced. In fact, it does have a similarity to the K701. (I compared) K701 has more 'air' but guess what - the Sony has a better bass response imo. They could be extremely good with a tad more warmth. (for me)
I've put it down to 'break in' but they haven't budged so far. I'll shove a load of pink noise at high volume down them to see if I can get them to 'warm up'. If that happens, they'd be fine and it could be the cause of two FR graphs that aren't the same. (at least in shape)
I know you're not convinced by break in Frans, but I'll whack them hard. To me, the drivers feel 'stiff.' They'd be good with slightly more looseness in the sound, which may mean less 'accurate'. They certainly don't give a 'rosy' view of music.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 11:22:20 GMT
Some headphones do alter with 'break-in'. Mostly within the first few hours. With other headphones I have never noticed any (physical) break-in. I do know that our brains 'get used to' a certain representation and after some time it will sound 'better' as the brain simply adjusts to interpreting the incoming signals as more natural. This effect becomes painfully obvious when, after listening to one set of cans with a minor 'flaw', you suddenly change to another headphone and get immediate 'relief'. Then when you switch back you can hear the shortcomings again but they dissappear much faster than the first time. I am pretty convinced these 2 'break-in' (brain vs headphone) are sometimes both mistaken for only headphone break-in. Don't think you personally mix those up, as you listen to it now and then and also use 'references' (other headphones you 'know'), which is the correct method of determining what's happening IMO. If you only listen to one headphone during break in the reference point is gone and sound memory is really BAD a. 'Brain-break-in' might have more influence than the actual changing of the headphone itself. I do know break-in in some headphones is real (I clearly detected it with a few of the HD681's while other HD681 did not change much or not at all) At least that is my experience/take on this subject. The sony graph (acc. to Superlux) and the superlux graph are superimposed in the HD661 leaflet Mike posted. To the ears the rather 'flat' presentation of the ony (with the hump in the highs) will indeed look skewed towards the bright side (like the K701) and the Sennheisers are often skewed towards the darker side. Seeing how Superlux drivers are (in general) there is a distinct chance the superluxes are more 'loose' sounding and might even have a more reaistic lows response. Nothing else to do but wait for it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 12:12:58 GMT
Low impedance amps may be the problem Frans. I've just realise that my amps all have one thing in common - low output impedance.
The reason I'm saying this is it is unusual to feel with any headphone that there is a 'hole' in the response as I'm feeling. The tilt in the upper registers is the giveaway and the Sony just doesn't work well with X-Cans. (The noise is poor for a start)
They are extremely sensitive (and revealing) so using portable amps (I thought) could help. No change. Still toppy with a mid hole.
However, the Ibasso is good. It takes the edge away from the treble and seems to have more body. Ihaven't a clue why, but it feels more comfortable.
I need to get a 120 ohm output amp just for testing imo. I seem to be very sensitive to slight pitch 'empahasis'. ie I hear tilts very quickly and this is the first time I've heard a 'tilt' in FR and a hole somewhere in the spectrum.
The Ibasso helps - not perfect, but it's less. The headphone at least seems calmer and more like a 'normal' response.
Since it is so sensitive it wouldn't hurt to have some resistance on the way out from the amp.
Ian
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Aug 10, 2011 12:24:15 GMT
Some headphones do alter with 'break-in'. Mostly within the first few hours. With other headphones I have never noticed any (physical) break-in. I do know that our brains 'get used to' a certain representation and after some time it will sound 'better' as the brain simply adjusts to interpreting the incoming signals as more natural. This effect becomes painfully obvious when, after listening to one set of cans with a minor 'flaw', you suddenly change to another headphone and get immediate 'relief'. Then when you switch back you can hear the shortcomings again but they dissappear much faster than the first time. I am pretty convinced these 2 'break-in' (brain vs headphone) are sometimes both mistaken for only headphone break-in. Don't think you personally mix those up, as you listen to it now and then and also use 'references' (other headphones you 'know'), which is the correct method of determining what's happening IMO. If you only listen to one headphone during break in the reference point is gone and sound memory is really BAD a. 'Brain-break-in' might have more influence than the actual changing of the headphone itself. I do know break-in in some headphones is real (I clearly detected it with a few of the HD681's while other HD681 did not change much or not at all) At least that is my experience/take on this subject. The sony graph (acc. to Superlux) and the superlux graph are superimposed in the HD661 leaflet Mike posted. To the ears the rather 'flat' presentation of the ony (with the hump in the highs) will indeed look skewed towards the bright side (like the K701) and the Sennheisers are often skewed towards the darker side. Seeing how Superlux drivers are (in general) there is a distinct chance the superluxes are more 'loose' sounding and might even have a more reaistic lows response. Nothing else to do but wait for it. Interesting... If you can try the Philips HP1000. 32 Ohms but it needs loads of power to sound convincingly good - i.m.o. - and for the 'stereo image' to stabilize somehow. Claus has the Philips now and I can assure you Philips at least had the recipe for balanced headphones with massive bass - the good kind - with the HP1000.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 14:07:22 GMT
Frans - have Superlux published an FR response for the Sony? I'm curious because I'm really not hearing what the Headroom graph portrays. The bass portion is closer to what I hear but mids and treble are quite a way away from what's drawn. They remind me very much so (in looks) of the Beyer DT250. I think the Beyer (from memory) is perhaps better. The Sonys give a 'cold' view of the music. (If that makes sense) Some people may call this accurate (aka K701) but I'm not convinced. In fact, it does have a similarity to the K701. (I compared) K701 has more 'air' but guess what - the Sony has a better bass response imo. They could be extremely good with a tad more warmth. (for me) I've put it down to 'break in' but they haven't budged so far. I'll shove a load of pink noise at high volume down them to see if I can get them to 'warm up'. If that happens, they'd be fine and it could be the cause of two FR graphs that aren't the same. (at least in shape) I know you're not convinced by break in Frans, but I'll whack them hard. To me, the drivers feel 'stiff.' They'd be good with slightly more looseness in the sound, which may mean less 'accurate'. They certainly don't give a 'rosy' view of music. Ian Ian, From your description, the 7506 may be very similar to my old Sony MDR-V6 phones. I read sometime ago, that they are indeed the same phones, and both use the same drivers, but the cosmetics and outer physical appearance and the plugs are different i.e., the 7506 has a gold plated one, and the MDR-V6 a nickel plated one. Your SQ description can easily apply to what I am hearing on the MDR-V6, with the exception that the highs may not be as steely as you describe (perhaps because my MDR-V6's are old and pretty well broken in).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 14:17:01 GMT
Funny you mention those. Never heard them but they are supposed to be the predecessor of the Philips SHP9000 which I just bought but did not have time to review yet. It came in the same day the HD238 did. The Sennheiser needed modding so got my first attention. IMO the SHP9000 is a serious gooooood headphone but alas, just like the HP1000, out of production already and hard to get. Luckily a friendly RG member helped me out obtaining one.. Very comfy, wide soundstage and no obvious peaks or valleys in the FR to my hearing anyway. Very balanced and open with a perfect fit and lightweight ! The SHP9000 review will come in due time. This Philips is clearly completely different from all the other Philips stuff they have out currently, in a league far above those. I don't have my HD250-II anymore but for what it is worth (in my memory) it is better than HD250-II in many aspects... it is open though and not a closed one. First the HD661 will be handled.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 15:03:41 GMT
I think that it probably is the same headphone virtually Israel. I have seen a comment where someone ordered them and received a 7506 cup on one side and a V6 cup on the other!! There was a photograph so whether this is true or he was messing around, I'm not sure. I'm hoping that they calm down with time - they'd be better if they do. I will give them a blast of loud pink noise. They've only been running 30 hours now so I'll give them a blast tonight, overnight in an attempt to 'tame' them. I can adjust to the sound but can't listen too loud which is a pity since I can't 'focus' the bass properly before the treble starts hitting. (Therefore, I can't find a satisfactory listening volume) I'm quite particular about the volume and 'focus' of the bass. The mids don't click in at a 'comfortable' volume before the treble hits too hard. It has made me more aware of the importance of the mids actually. If the 'presence' isn't right, then the headphone just doesn't sound 'balanced'. Of course, this 'may' change with some hefty' burning in' or head acceptance on my part. Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on Aug 10, 2011 19:18:26 GMT
They have a very Japanese type signature (may be down to the drivers) and actually sound quite similar to the ATH W1000 but are a lot more screechy up top once you crank the wick up. At very low levels I like them a lot but at mid to high levels they become way too screechy for my ears. It's pretty well integrated at low volumes but as soon as you fire some juice into them that integration collapses and majors on treble glare. I had a poke around inside them today and reckon some bitumen may help tame that treble a bit.... I will try it one of these days. The coiled cable on the 7506 is a pain in the arse, I love it on the Beyer DT-770 but the Sony stuff is not the same quality and will soon tangle up with prolonged usage IMO so I removed it and fitted 2 metres of evolution pro OFC cable instead, I'm a lot happier with it hanging from my left ear Pop off the pad, remove the 4 securing screws: You will see this: I have numbered the pads 1, 2 and 3....... 1 = tip, 2 = ring and 3 = sleeve: Solder new cable into position: Completed:
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Post by PinkFloyd on Aug 10, 2011 19:25:08 GMT
By the way Ian...... have a look at the foam in the middle of the magnet..... looks perished to me, this would suggest that these are "new old stock" (hence the price).... have a look at the code, 01-94, so probably made in 1994 (17 years old) so a good idea to turn the drivers upside down and remove the foam with a pair of tweezers (to ensure none of it drops onto the diaphragm)... I have plenty of fresh foam and will send you a bit you can bung in the hole. Mike.
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Aug 10, 2011 19:51:50 GMT
Philips is so underrated by a large part of the audio-community, really undeserved in my opinion. I am pretty much done with dynamic headphones for now. Only a rare AKG, maybe a Yamaha and a Philips headphone are next.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Aug 10, 2011 19:55:47 GMT
The HP1000 is an amazing headphone and I would SNAP a pair up if I could.... I had a pair on loan a few years ago and didn't want to give them back!
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Post by PinkFloyd on Aug 10, 2011 19:57:55 GMT
Actually, Mike. Israel has a point. I think that we need to reimburse you postage costs since you're sending out ten. I'm always very aware that you're posting and paying when you just send stuff out to me and it all mounts up for you. We mustn't take it for granted. Ian I don't mind sending the UK ones at my expense (recorded delivery) but the overseas one will have to be funded by the recipient. I will organise the logistics as soon as the ten samples arrive with me. Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 20:02:12 GMT
Yes, I find low volume works best. The bass and treble recede leaving a more balanced sound. I'm not sure burning in will bring them down tbh.
It's a relief to get the DT990 on my head. It sounds so much more balanced imo.
Not sure I can live with them. Still wondering about Beyer DT1350 too but not keen on super-aurals.
Mind you, it makes you appreciate how good the HD25 is.
We'll see.
The box was extremely dusty on the top, so it has been sitting for a while but since 1994? That would make them one of the first since they only came out around then.
Blimey, where've they been?
Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on Aug 10, 2011 20:49:10 GMT
Yes, I find low volume works best. The bass and treble recede leaving a more balanced sound. I'm not sure burning in will bring them down tbh. It's a relief to get the DT990 on my head. It sounds so much more balanced imo. We'll see. The box was extremely dusty on the top, so it has been sitting for a while but since 1994? That would make them one of the first since they only came out around then. Blimey, where've they been? Ian The perished foam is a dead giveaway to their age, always the first thing to break down (rot).... I am only "assuming" the 01-94 is the date code but seems about right to me.... foam usually goes after 15 - 20 years.... Hell man, I still have stuff in boxes from the 70's and you would swear it was brand new. What I can say is that the screws are not self tappers and actually screw into threaded mounts so the construction is quite good (ie: they are built to last).... sonically, however, they are not what I would class as accurate monitors and are pretty brash sounding in places Could well be that all they require is a damned good thrashing on top of a hot radiator for a few days to bed them in.... could also be that they, erm, sound like shite and are as much "monitor" grade as an ear trumpet is I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and will subject them to a darned good thrashing over the next few days, in the hope that they relax into something a bit less "toppy".... will also experiment with higher Z amps, they don't seem to respond too well to low Z amps.... try your adaptor with them Ian. £35 (including shipping) is all I would "want" to pay for them at the present rate of knots but, as we all know, things can change with bed in..... it's pretty much tizz city at the moment though As you say..... great for "voice" but I don't listen to a lot of "voice".... I like a bit of drum, bass, guitar etc. as well To be totally blunt.... it's not going to take too much to improve on this, the HD-681 ALREADY show these a clean pair of heels so the HD-661 (unless they are real dogs) shouldn't have much bother bettering this type of sound. The driver (7506) seems to be top quality but that's all there is to this headphone.... no damping, just the driver mounted in plastic..... I am SURE the 7506 has great potential for tweaking (the accessibilty to the bits and bobs is superb) but that will be another time, another channel type thing..... I'll keep these pretty much "stock" until I have done the 7506 / HD-661 comparison. The recabling hasn't done anything to the SQ (and I didn't expect it to) it has just got rid of that cheap and nasty coiled effort and replaced it with a nice, flexible straight cord.... the Beyer coiled cord is "quality", the Sony coiled cord is crap in comparison (IMO) and will soon start to tangle. Anyhoo..... I'll give them a few more hours to relax.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 21:26:03 GMT
;D
I've tried the adapter. I was thinking of shoving an inch of foam inside the earpiece at least to mop up the blood.
What I don't get is how these things are described as great studio monitors. The only thing I'd monitor on them are grasshoppers.
Superlux have chosen the right one to go up against!! After I've compared them, the Sonys will go to the rest home I think.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 21:27:35 GMT
After that length of time, could the material of the drivers start to degrade??? Is that possible??
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