nando
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The Frying Dutchman
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Post by nando on Sept 17, 2019 14:11:24 GMT
A long time ago I tried to investigate the cable discussion by making some cables by myself. I tried to make the worst cable I could think of. I bought some washing line cable and put some connectors on them. I didn’t have a fancy soldering iron back then so the soldering was very bad indeed. Still I couldn’t hear any difference between some “good” vd Hul cables and my own product. My audio wasn’t as good as it is now. I have my MF electronics and my Quad esl-989’s so In my mind things can’t get (much) better than this. I made another attempt just now. I do have a good soldering iron now so I made a better connection (one that doesn’t break). I’ll have a go this evening and report back.
I measured the cable and it is 0,66 Ohm from connector to connector. I measured with a ESR meter because my multi meter is somewhere is a box.
Should be fun.
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Post by steinjw on Sept 17, 2019 15:16:25 GMT
Well now - there's a project one doesn't come across often ... make the worst cable I can think of ...
Well, best of luck!! Keep us informed.
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nando
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The Frying Dutchman
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Post by nando on Sept 17, 2019 17:57:28 GMT
Well now - there's a project one doesn't come across often ... make the worst cable I can think of ... Well, best of luck!! Keep us informed. Well there has to be some sort of bottom line? Stupid, naive and unknowing as I might be back then I bought a Moster cable and some vd Hull "The Bay C5 Hybrid" cables. If anything they are pretty in red.
Come to think of it... This is probably not the worst cable I can make. Any suggestions?
The way I want to test these is: 1) xray -> vd Hull C5 -> x-pre -> vd Hull C5 -> x-a200 -> vd Hull C5 -> Quad esl-989 2) xray -> toslink -> x-24k -> CrapCable-> x-pre -> vd Hull C5 -> x-a200 -> vd Hull C5 -> Quad esl-989
The x-ray and the x-24k both use the Burr-Brown PCM1716 delta-sigma dac chip and that's probably why they sound identical. The x-24k is modded with new (Panasonic and Nichicon) caps.
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nando
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The Frying Dutchman
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Post by nando on Sept 17, 2019 19:50:51 GMT
I’m listening to my CrapCable mkI right now and boy does the music sound good! And so does it with the vd Hul cable. As far as I can say they are identical.
So what’s next? I want a “bad” cable. What can I do? Make a cable out of or including: - paperclips - wood nails or screws (so I can say “I nailed it” and “screw you!”?) - a casing of a MF can? (I have some spare) - a wet cloth or some water - an insane lenght of wire (several tens of meters. I should gave saved the rest of the washing line wire) - a very thin wire (dangerous because the resistance is too high?) - help me...?
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Sept 17, 2019 21:06:52 GMT
I'm not sure you can make a crap cable but I think you can buy them from Russ Andrews.
Try something with rust on it ?
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nando
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Post by nando on Sept 18, 2019 20:43:11 GMT
I'm not sure you can make a crap cable but I think you can buy them from Russ Andrews. Try something with rust on it ? Can’t make a crap cable? Why is there a big fuss about cables then anyway? I want to know/hear the bottomline in the whole cable discussion. Everyone is about having extreme materials in them but if you don’t there is no penalty?
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nando
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Post by nando on Sept 27, 2019 23:06:10 GMT
Maybe it's impossible to make a crappy cable. I made a cable out of a chain link of about 2x 50 cm per channel that have about 1 non soldered connections per centimeter. I connected a crocodilleclamp on the screw so there are another two transitions to other materials. So is having a lot of connections is a bad thing I think I have done that.
When it works it sounds as good as my “expensive” cables. It was a bit of problem to get the chain working as a interlink because there has to be tention on the chain for all the links to pass a elektrical signal. I hung the chain on two screws and then putt some weight on the bottom.
I thought of more possibillities for bad cables. I have 0,14mm2 and 0,05 mm2 copper wire which I will turn into interlinks. And if all does not get me some worse sounding music I will connect all the cables I made or find in this house together to make a really long CrapCable Wormlink.
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nando
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Post by nando on Sept 28, 2019 10:03:55 GMT
This is what my CrapCable Chainlink mkI looks like in different stages of development.
The chains had to be weight down to make them conduct "reliably".
This is what the whole construction looks like. I passed the signal via toslink to my MF x-24k and then via the CrapCable Chainlink mkI to my MF x-pre.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 28, 2019 19:59:55 GMT
If the music seriously sounds as good with "chain", as it does with your best interconnect, then have you considered going for a hearing test? Your findings may be correct Nando..... I don't know anybody who would take the time and effort to audition rusty barbed wire or chain and compare it to a tidy, well terminated, length of interconnect. I can only assume the house move has left you with a lot of time on your hands and you are wasting it cobbling together the most inane / impractical and utterly non aesthetically pleasing (to the eye) interconnects one could possibly imagine. My old mate once said "copper is copper" and he was right...... copper is copper..... bell wire for speakers and the cheapest ready made RCA interconnects...... spending money for copper "dressed up like a tart" was something he would never do...... he would rather "f**k a tart" and spend the leftover change on a cheap length of copper. Each to their own. I prefer to make my own interconnects comprising of a reasonable piece of copper clad in a reasonable sleeve and terminated in a professional manner with quality Phono plugs and a good secure solder join. I feel you missed out on your spare time opportunity on this one Nando, I really do, the "interest point" is coming up with a cable that truly DOES sound better than a length of chain and truly DOES sound better than the so called "best" £3,000 per metre interconnect. Your time would have been better spent trying to improve on "copper is copper" and actually coming up with an interconnect that DOES sound better than a length of chain weighted down with things. I can see what you're doing...... been there myself..... you're at a low ebb at the moment and are firing your discontentment and anger at the world in the form of crap cable. You are so low at the moment and the only way to express your sadness is by expressing yourself in "chained cable" format. We are all in chains mate, from birth to grave, that's why super slick interconnects are so appealing.... they free us from our mental chains. Lovely thread and thank you for your input (by God this place needs some fresh input!) this topic will either fly or die...... I hope it flies like a bird Nando! Bloody different, to say the least, BUT that's what it's all about..... you're thinking out of the box and that is to be praised and welcomed...... you've got me thinking and questioning and I thank you for that. Maybe it's time for this forum to come alive again? I'm up for it, are you guys? Mike. This is what my CrapCable Chainlink mkI looks like in different stages of development. The chains had to be weight down to make them conduct "reliably". This is what the whole construction looks like. I passed the signal via toslink to my MF x-24k and then via the CrapCable Chainlink mkI to my MF x-pre.
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nando
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Post by nando on Sept 28, 2019 20:10:01 GMT
Mike, are you really confident you can hear the difference between my CrapCable and a fancy cable? If there is a difference it can only be very very small. So small in fact that it might be inpossible to hear anyway. So why bother?
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nando
Been here a while!
The Frying Dutchman
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Post by nando on Sept 29, 2019 15:22:09 GMT
Oh, and by the way. I’m not depressed and have quite a good hearing.
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Sept 29, 2019 19:07:48 GMT
I do notice the difference between cables - quite a bit really and it pisses me off that off the shelf stuff is expensive. I do like the difference silver makes though its quite possible this is personal opinion - I accept that entirely. I'm awaiting some plugs before finishing off some cables using this - Duelund DCA AC0.4, 0.4mm, silver wire, solid core, cotton & oil insulated, AWG 26 (1m). I am hoping it will be a good balance between cost and sound. I only need them to be 25cm long. The plugs are these - www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253592925398Fingers crossed.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 30, 2019 12:02:17 GMT
I've been making a shedload of X-PSU V3 power cables..... Neutrik REAN gold pin DIN plugs, Evolution Pro 99.999% OFC cable and 60/37/3% silver solder. I have added ferrite clamps to both ends of the cables. Will the power cables provide a better type of 24VCT? Will it add some gold plated goodness to the 24 Volts? Probably not but they are decent quality power cables and will last a lifetime
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 30, 2019 12:09:19 GMT
I do notice the difference between cables - quite a bit really and it pisses me off that off the shelf stuff is expensive. I do like the difference silver makes though its quite possible this is personal opinion - I accept that entirely. I'm awaiting some plugs before finishing off some cables using this - Duelund DCA AC0.4, 0.4mm, silver wire, solid core, cotton & oil insulated, AWG 26 (1m). I am hoping it will be a good balance between cost and sound. I only need them to be 25cm long. The plugs are these - www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253592925398Fingers crossed. Is the Duelund wire solid Silver Adrian?
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Sept 30, 2019 15:48:12 GMT
Yes - Solid silver but quite fine (0.4mm) - OK to work with. I have made the cables up this afternoon - a break from "working at home". Cardas solder. They sound very good but (whether necessary or not) I have left them "to burn in" before giving the a proper listen at the weekend. The plugs were OK - apparently these have more silver plate and better quality assurance - www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01KUYAQZ4/?coliid=IBJG83PGQMQHW&colid=16O2ACGUFTI5S&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_itThe nice thing about the plugs is the short distance between the wire solder point and connection point with the socket - less that 10 mm. I like the neutrik Profi plugs but its about 30mm of plug. ---------------------------------- Mike. "Probably not but they are decent quality power cables and will last a lifetime" That's really important. There can be no argument - they 'may' sound better - and will last the life of the kit. So much better to have something that clearly does the job than worry it may fail.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 30, 2019 18:58:38 GMT
I used to like the WBT phono plugs.....you kind of loosened them off before inserting into the sockets and then tightened them up so they were bastardly TIGHT on the sockets making a pretty much gas tight connection. I don't know if you can still buy them but when searching for them I came across this old thread from 2007: rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/1601/graham-slees-cuga-interconnectUnfortunately, most of the external links are now obsolete but I vaguely remember Graham Slee's concept..... it was essentially to strip out the inner core and replace it with a higher AWG wire to minimise "skin effect"....... I still have those interconnects (in a box full of interconnects) somewhere I must look them out. Adrian, you may want to start swinging your cables about to loosen them off and, Nando........ no need to as your chains won't suffer from skin effect as they are running bareback The funniest part of that old 2007 thread was when Alex said " I think this thread deserves more prominence due to not only Mike's pictorials, but Graham's explanations" Those were considered top class photos back then in forum land (LOL!) Jesus christ, they were awful!
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 30, 2019 19:40:28 GMT
By the way....... Steen Duelund was an interesting chap who had some very forward thinking ideas back in the day. My favourite of his is this one (where he discusses the brain) duelundaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3621/2013/12/sound_and_brain.pdfI have always said that 95% of listening pleasure is gained by the condition of the mind.... the transducer can deliver the sound but if you're not in a state of mind to receive then no amount of tweaks or upgrades to your system will change that. The "seemingly" MORON with a smile on his face listening to utter shite on a mobile phone is vibing...... the guy driving along at 25.3MPH in his Dacia Duster, with a smile on his face, listening to radio LOSER is smiling and getting into the vibes (think "Carpenters greatest hits") but the average 50 plus Audiophile geezer is thinking about "interconnects" This is what I have learnt along the way..... no matter what the "source" OR the "amplification" OR the "Speakers / Headphones" is...... you will never get close to enjoying the music / the live event / the recording unless you're part of it / in the zone so it is all about tweaking yourself..... the transducer is secondary and only conveys a message. If the message is something you like you will welcome it on a crystal radio. Sorry to thread crap Nando but I had to say something....... not sure what I have just said but I'll continue shooting from the hip........ Oh yes.... whether it's chains on blocks of wood or crystal radios or cables without "skin effect" who gives a f**k? Off to listen to Jo Whiley (radio 2) on one of my old school Hacker radios right now...... not "Hi-Fi" but something I can appreciate if the zone and I are in tune ;-) Steen Duelend..... more about the man: duelundaudio.com/about-steen-aa-duelund/Here's Steen! Go Steen! RIP STEEN you will be remembered Sir. Mike.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 30, 2019 20:21:47 GMT
I feel like making an interconnect.....
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Sept 30, 2019 21:26:22 GMT
The Duelund wire comes in a cotton & oil 'insulator' which I then covered in shrink wrap. I think the oil/cotton stuff is to do with skin effect . . . See - hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/duelund_wbt_interconnect_review.pdfI used the wire £10+vat per m) - the flat stuff they used in that article is really expensive (£50+ per m). I have not screened the connectors but separated them by half an inch or so - like a DNM wire. All ****** quesswork so I'll see.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 1, 2019 7:46:57 GMT
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nando
Been here a while!
The Frying Dutchman
Always look on the bright side of life
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Post by nando on Oct 1, 2019 18:12:43 GMT
Mike, you are exactly on my wavelenght. There are factors infinitly more important than some wire.
I was at a hifi show laat sunday. There was a Danish company Lyngdorf with two systems. One “standard” Lyngdorf and one SteinwayLyngdorf. The latter costing 111000 euro (yes, eleven thousand euro) and sounding better than the standard setup but not very much. The trick was their RoomPerfect correction system. Their standard speakers are as small as possible to still fit the speakerunits and two woofers smacked in the corner. The correction system doing the rest. Oh, man that sounded like a million euro very big system. My point is this. It doesn’t make a difference what cable or whatever you place in your system, the Lungdorf will correct it. After hearing that, I want one!
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Post by PinkFloyd on Oct 1, 2019 20:04:38 GMT
the Lungdorf will correct it. After hearing that, I want one! Yes, a few pints will correct most things ;-) Temporarily
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Oct 1, 2019 20:14:11 GMT
Totally agree over the price of WBT plugs - silver ones - £200 a set. How much of that is profit ?!!
Its funny - I can't plan a listening session - sometimes the moods there and the music sounds great. Other times its just a nice sounding noise. Red wine helps but it certainly is a temporary fix.
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nando
Been here a while!
The Frying Dutchman
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Post by nando on Oct 1, 2019 21:29:40 GMT
Alcohol doesn’t get me in the mood.... for listening to my music. It makes me too sleepy. Than again I’m not much of a drinker so any amount will have a significant effect.
But I’m honest about the Lyngdorf. It is a remarkable system with it’s correction of any flaw in the hifi chain (of chain cable 😁). It is the end of the hifi hobby because anything you do to the system will be corrected. Well, maybe only the loudspeakers will matter as the source. Because if the the source doesn’t deliver and the loudspeakers can’t replicate the signal it will limit the overall outcome. Funny it was at the end of the demo of the SteinwayLyngdorf system after a tremendous demo of the capabilities of the system. Mr Lyngdorf himself said that he will now, for some audiophiles play some music in high definition format. Because we had only be listening to cd quality up until that moment. The room was quiet and no doubt that there were some men who had something to think about after that.
At these shows many people switch rooms fast and frequently. I noticed that this room was the only one I saw that the people were sitting remained seated. I’m babbling on about Lyngdorf as if I had a pint or two or being in love almost (mr Lyngdorf is an old man so maybe not). But it has been quite a while since I heared such a leap forward. The last one being about 25 years ago. That was at a demo of a setup of Einstein amps (German audio with tubes) and Audiostatic electrostatics. Marvelous soundstage where I felt I could stand up and walk around the musicians before my own opened eyes. Since then I had to have electrostatics. It became my love for Quad esl.
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nando
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The Frying Dutchman
Always look on the bright side of life
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Post by nando on Oct 7, 2019 21:46:12 GMT
I’ve had my hearing checked. It’s fine! Actually it’s more than fine. I have the hearing of a person under the age of 30. I’m 41. Conclusion is that I should be capable of hearing differences in cables. And up until now I don’t.
I’vr made another CrapCable, the CoilLink mkI. This beauty is 2x 5 meter of wire of a spool on which it was delivered. The wire is a whopping 0,05 mm2. Only about 10 strands of very thin copper treads. It breaks only looking at it. The CoilLink mkI replaced the ChainLink mkI in exacly the same place. And again, the music playes fine. No difference detected (yet).
Funny was that the resistence of the 5 meter of this wire was 3,6 Ohm and when it was wound on the coil it measured 7,8 Ohm.
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