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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 15, 2007 21:35:33 GMT
Have built a 0.5metre pair of these today www.gspaudio.co.uk/set_up/cable_1_hi-fi_interconnect.htm and they are actually extremely transparent in use. I didn't exactly stick to Graham's recipe 100% as I'm a great believer in using what you've got. Instead of the CT100 cable I used some WEBRO H109F I had kicking about, the longitudinally overlapped screen is CU Foil (copper), the braid is 54% CU (copper) and the dielectric is 5 cell PE. The capacitance is 56pf/m.... pretty close to the CT100 if not better. The only other changes I made were to strip the stock copper inner conductor out and replace it with a 24K gold plated 1.0mm copper conductor.... I've had this stuff for quite some time and can't remember where I got it but it is 99.9999% OFC with a genuine 24K gold plate. I fed a length of 0.6mm pure silver wire through and terminated it as per the CuGa tutorial, the only difference being I used WTB phono plugs. Took about 20 minutes to make up a 0.5M pair and I'm glad I took the time to do it! You probably all know what I think of "high end" interconnects.... a damned rip off! These CuGa cables cost about £20 (or therabouts dependant on what you have to hand) and are bastard good. The pair I have just made are not stricly "CuGa" as there is an element of 24K gold involved so these are better described as "CuAgAu" where CU = copper, AG = Silver and AU = gold. The solder used was lead / tin so you can add an SN for the tin and a PB for the lead so a more apt name for my particular bastardisation would be "CuAgAuPbSn" (pronounced "kewg-op-bus-en") Fck' it! I can't make a trendy word out of that I'll have to incorporate some iron, some steel and a bit of brass neck Nice cable Graham Pure silver and 24K gold plated OFC copper about to be fed in. Terminated
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Post by gns on Sept 15, 2007 22:25:15 GMT
By pulling out the stock centre conductor and putting in the 24ct gold plated OFC, it'll have made the insulation less tighter onto the conductor. Add to this the "non-volatile" nature of the gold plate, and the insulation has no chance of bonding to it. The net effect is a greater improvement in removal of skin-effect losses. I'm sure a lot of people may consider this explanation garbage, so why is it overhead power lines aren't insulated? Exactly! (no not because it saves money! They're uninsulated as insulation uses some of the power, because there's no such thing as an insulator - just poor conductors [elementary science])
If you make with stock CT100, the centre conductor loosens slightly over time, and with flexing, and I observed an improvement qualifying the above, which tends to suggest that cable "burn-in" is not bullshit either.
Another thing I noticed was that by laying up both channels with the sleeve printing in the same direction, and by connecting source to destination in the direction of the print, the image and togetherness of the musical performance was far better than not bothering to do so. This last bit I cannot explain. A bit more advanced than elementary science I guess?
As Gold is by far the poorest conductor of electricity in the "coinage metals group", Silver being the best, but Copper being the second best (and bloody good!), maybe it could be a good idea just making another set using the stock cable without the Silver wire? The skin-effect with copper should be better than the almost pure 24ct Gold plating and so the Silver may not be so necessary. Worth comparing?
It could be argued that the Gold plating would win through after many years, because the Copper surface would eventually build Copper salts and slowly lose its skin-effect, and the Gold plate would simply stay the same. However, there is much less air polution in the UK (we're told) these days, so that may just be academic.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2007 23:48:05 GMT
Graham and Mike
Interesting stuff ! I think this thread deserves more prominence due to not only Mike's pictorials, but Graham's explanations. Too many people may miss this thread due to slipping down the lists, and only being noticed by the everyday viewing members. Alex
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 16, 2007 11:50:35 GMT
Graham, these guys seem to rate gold very highly www.vividaudio.net/ic-gold.html the proof of the pudding is in the hearing and to my ears the gold plated copper / silver combo works very nicely. I will, of course make up a standard copper / silver pair and have a listen as soon as the phono plugs arrive. As it goes, what with the gold only being "gold plated copper" it may have advantages over copper on its own. You mention the skin effect, the gold plate will reduce that and remember the signal will also be travelling through the copper under the gold plate (as well as the plate itself) so we actually have the signal going through copper, silver and gold. May be worth trying 0.5mm gold plated copper as it would be extremely loose inside the H109F. Bloomin' great cable with a lot of possibilities though, there's a lot of different things you can do with it
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leo
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Post by leo on Sept 16, 2007 12:11:26 GMT
A technique some do is to swing around their co-axial based interconnect cables over their head to loosen up the conductors Seriously though, I know a few folks who do that to new I/C's
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leo
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Post by leo on Sept 16, 2007 12:20:41 GMT
I'll give Grahams recipe a try when I get some more silver, currently use none shielded I/C's at the mo the usual double helix solid core enamel wire around a stripped co-axial core. Also tried it with solid silver pairs Obviously these are not suitable to be near mains leads etc
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 16, 2007 13:47:28 GMT
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Post by gns on Sept 16, 2007 14:03:49 GMT
Without reading it all over again, I remember reading it before and thinking just how sensible these guys are! The CuGa Go-Between Interconnect Project, plus the Cusat50 (non-silver) and Agsat90 (silver reinforced) Interconnects (our commercial versions of the CuGa) follow very similar wisdoms, whereas unshielded cables are just RF and hum traps, that usually cause manufacturers like me many headaches - customers are fooled into thinking unshielded cables are some form of magical invention, and it must be our kit that is causing hum and radio pick-up... It just goes to show that the public are being dumbed down ready to be "slaughtered"
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leo
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Post by leo on Sept 16, 2007 14:26:12 GMT
Yes, must admit to falling into that regarding the no shield ;D mind you I don't get any hum at all, not really tried many other cables tbh so will give the Cuga's a go next
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Post by xerxes on Sept 16, 2007 15:00:44 GMT
I've had excellent results with unshielded RCA-RCA cables. I've never had any problems with noise or hum. I currently have a pair of Isolda DCT300 unshielded RCA cables between my CD player and Pre-amp. I've made a few pairs of DIY unshielded cables using cotton and teflon covered single core copper conductors and these have sounded pretty good, pretty close to the Isoldas, too close given the price difference. I still prefer the Isoldas overall, but there really isn't that much in it and id I didn't already have the Isolda cables, I wouldn't buy them now for the very, very slight improvement over some of my DIY attempts.
The Hypex power amp modules I use actually came with a length of Belden 1800F for connection from the amp modules to the XLR socket on the rear of the amp, so I thought it made sense to use the same cable all the way back to the pre-amp and have a pair of Blue Jean balanced, shielded cables using Belden 1800F between my pre amp and power amps.
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Post by serverbaboon on Sept 16, 2007 16:57:00 GMT
Graham or anyone can you tell me what the purpose of the silver wire is in your cable. I notice that in another thread you mentioned that you could make the cable without the silver wire so I was wondering what characteristics the silver adds. I got the silver wire but the cable I got from someone at work has a solid white core so I hadn't made the cable up. Going off the other thread I will try using the cables I have, and when I get some cable with the air space make a set of them to compare with.
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Post by John Cadman on Sept 16, 2007 22:32:37 GMT
Yes, must admit to falling into that regarding the no shield ;D mind you I don't get any hum at all, not really tried many other cables tbh so will give the Cuga's a go next No need to bother making it yourself now you've won the thread of the month competition.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2007 22:44:18 GMT
Miguel The Blue Jeans cables are a good economical alternative for people like yourself in the U.S.A. Just be aware, that the LC1 cables may not be ideal for everyone. I tried them and found them a little too bright in my system, compared with similar types to Graham's cable, but probably, not quite as good. I tried them between the MF X-DAC V3 and the preamplifier. However, they would probably work very well with valve type equipment , which is much more reliant on the quality and length of it's interconnects. Don't forget though, that green Solo etc. ,may sound even better with the GSP Audio cables, as Graham wouldn't have tuned them to perfection, using just any old interconnects. Alex
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 16, 2007 22:52:03 GMT
Yes, must admit to falling into that regarding the no shield ;D mind you I don't get any hum at all, not really tried many other cables tbh so will give the Cuga's a go next No need to bother making it yourself now you've won the thread of the month competition. You beat me to it John!
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Post by gns on Sept 16, 2007 23:20:34 GMT
Graham or anyone can you tell me what the purpose of the silver wire is in your cable. I notice that in another thread you mentioned that you could make the cable without the silver wire so I was wondering what characteristics the silver adds. I got the silver wire but the cable I got from someone at work has a solid white core so I hadn't made the cable up. Going off the other thread I will try using the cables I have, and when I get some cable with the air space make a set of them to compare with. Some kit, especially valves, sounds a bit soft, and the high conductivity of Silver, especially of the skin-effect, reinforces the high frequencies more than Copper. With solid state, the result is usually a hardening of the SQ, but that all depends on the system's performance. If the system sounds a bit too soft, then Silver reinforcement is probably a good thing. Some manufacturer's go the whole hog and make all-Silver I/Cs, but I can't get on with them as I find them excruciatingly bright and hard. In many cases a good copper I/C is better and IMHO, good shielding is essential - you may not hear the RF, but I assure you it's there! Try looking up RIAA and IEC Vinyl: Different Sound Balances of Vinyl Records Or "Why things sound like they do" at the Graham Slee Projects website help desk
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 18, 2007 17:05:22 GMT
By FAR the best so far! Crystal clear, extremely open, a noticeable improvement. What are you talking about I hear you ask........... The same H109F cable but this time with the centre conductor stripped out and one length of stripped cat5 in its place, not in the same place either, in one of the bigger outer cells so the cat5 is extremely loose. I got the monster plugs for £1 each and must say I really like them, these will not be going anywhere as there are "2" clamps to secure the cable and boy do they clamp it! So, about £4.40 for these interconnects and they certainly are the clearest I have heard for a long while.
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Post by serverbaboon on Sept 18, 2007 17:12:43 GMT
Where did you get your monser plugs from?
Is that solid cat5e or stranded.?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Sept 18, 2007 17:15:17 GMT
Where did you get your monser plugs from? Is that solid cat5e or stranded.? Got them off ebay and, yes, solid cat5.
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Post by serverbaboon on Sept 18, 2007 22:21:54 GMT
Seeing the cat5 mod reminded me off a bunch cat5 projects on the tnt site, the link is below. There a a couple of other diy projects such as mains cables, and some amps which I don't think encroaches on any of the rockgrotto stuff. Might be a bit too much unshielded cable twisting for Graham though. ;D www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/tweaks.html Incidentaly there are a good few reviews of Graham's kit and his ROHS interview he mentions in another thread.
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Post by gns on Sept 19, 2007 4:33:05 GMT
If you want RF modulated music then use bell-wire! You don't actually hear a radio station, but with any unshielded cable you are actually listening to RF modulated music. When one signal modulates another it produces an alias or undertone or group thereof, and some of that becomes audible - i.e. alters the sound. If you really want to alter the sound there are a number of drugs that will do that for you. For example:- Cannabis: From memory, it will really soup up the sound, making it far-out and out of sight, man! LSD: Even better. This can really turn an old portable mono cassette recorder into a super-fidelity rig! Try breaking the tape and sticking it back together with tiny strips of insulating tape. Our "student engineering days" player automatically chewed up tapes which was even better! Sections used to play with the tape reversed so you could hear Black Sabbath backwards in the middle of Led Zeppelin - sent shivers up the spine, man. Wow that was really cool jive. You could go into the woods in spring time with the bluebells in flower and float among them with Hendrix playing Purple Haze - honestly, he was there! Right there among the bluebells playing his guitar with real attitude! Do both Cannabis and LSD at a Roy Harper concert sat right behind the desk with the sound and lighting engineers! Whoah! Handing round the joints - those engineers - boy could they skin up a Camberwell carrot! But back to the sound - we were in orbit! Boy, could Roy hang on to a high note! Guys! Do you really understand that you are creating the equivalent of drugs? A make-believe world? Drugs can do it far better for you. Pity they're bloody illegal.... And used so irresponsibly these days
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Post by serverbaboon on Sept 19, 2007 20:19:35 GMT
I can hand on heart say right now, that at no point in time have I ever indulged any sort of illegal, music altering er unshielded cables.
4.33a, wtf don't you ever sleep?
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