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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2007 23:00:25 GMT
"I find it very hard to believe that a eastern european maker with 2 'brothers' involved, are making better sounding products cheaper, than the british and american heavy weights."
Krisno Headphone amplifiers are more of a niche product. However, it is now possible that the Heed, which I understand may now be outsourced (?), may no longer be of the same quality as the original units that our members have listened to and enjoyed.For example, it may now be using an inferior power transformer, unless they have reverted to the original transformer. Many people find the Heed on a par with Graham Slee's "Green Solo" , and although perhaps not as accurate, may have a larger soundstage in some cases. Whether this is correct or not, is a different matter again. I suggest that you try and listen to both these units and decide for yourself. If of course, you have a higher than average disposable income, you may wish to try the Classe and the Krell. SandyK BTW, I am relying on memory for a few of the statements that I made about later Heed amplifiers, and my memory isn't what it used to be !
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Post by krisno on Nov 17, 2007 23:25:38 GMT
But anyways, I am just elaborating a little. Like I said, I have spent many years in eastern europe, some that many of you probably don't have. And well, everything they do is utterly crap. The universities, the products(the few they make), etc. There is not a single good 'polish' brand for instance that I know of. Do you guys know of any? But well, the Heed is hungarian... and btw, I read mrarroyo's first post on this thread, and he said the Heed went for $350 before. The X-van V3 is $500, so of course, it's probably great value. But me for instance will actually pay more for the Heed to Norway than the X-Can V3. And then I get the brand which sells on ebay in norway, so I got it. I won't comment anymore, I just tried to ask some questions, and elaborate a little on the 'break in' , 'tube rolling' etc, which on the first one the AKG engineers say is just lots of bullsh... and the latter one, well the creator of Xcan says the tubes won't matter much at all. Also interesseting to see some forum members say that the little pinkie just gets so much better over time. I cannot understand that at all. The current is the same. It's just having a non-hifi perspective on things. I am medical doctor, so well, maybe I like the 'measured evidence' of things beeing as they are, not subjective 'feelings' Anyways, I dont know about the Heed. I almost bought it, but I will be happy with the xcan and the little pinkie. The only thing I wont be happy about is the size. The Heed is alot smaller.. So thank you guys , I am finished on this forum now. And thank you Mike for nice service and price and soon to be delivered little Pinkie. Getting the same performance for 1/3 of the cost of the X-PSU and taking less desktop space. Excellent!! mrarroyo; and by the way, you made som excellent reply on yours first and second posting. Excellent! It's a pity you couldn't keep it like that, I never said anything to make you angry. I just said that Headroom balanced looked nice and has lots of quality stuff in it. Frustrating behavoir some grown up people. Wonder how it would be for my patients if I went hay-wack every time I think the patient says something stupid, which is every 3rd second they open their mouths. Lastly, about the Heed without transistors. B&W 802 speaker is by many considerd the best speaker in the world. And used in alot of recording studios globablly... The damn crossover filter in the B&W's weigh 5kilo's or somethinig. with just loads of transistors and wires. Embrace the transistors, they are what makes the sound what it is.. the Heed has 2 ? Cya...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2007 0:33:04 GMT
Krisno
Engineers are renowned for making statements like that. Most (but not all) engineers are completely against subjectivism. However in recent times, some of the more enlightened engineers have investigated some of the subjective claims using more modern test equipment and techniques, and found there is in fact a basis to many of the claims. Some of the engineers at National Semiconductor, are from this new breed, and the results show up in their latest I.C. designs. To ignore the vast amount of anecdotal reports about different manufacturers valves having slightly different sound signatures is rather foolish. After all, they do not all use the same materials in construction, and like many other commercial products, they aren't all manufactured to close tolerance, particularly, the internal electrode support. Just like transistors, there are also valves built to MIL SPEC tolerances of performance and reliability. Regarding the Little Pinkie getting much better over time, I would have to agree with you on that . It will however immediately outperform lesser transformers. Unfortunately, you don't appear to have been with this forum long enough to have read some of the informative articles by the award winning design engineer, Graham Slee. Graham would have been able to give indepth , and accurate, answers to many of your statements.
SandyK
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Nov 18, 2007 1:10:14 GMT
Did I read your post correctly Miguel that the Heed is absolute junk? Must be a very different amp than the Heed I have had since it was introduced (and used with 701s). I was being sarcastic! BTW, good to see you posting here.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Nov 18, 2007 1:17:47 GMT
Engineers are renowned for making statements like that... Those damn good for nothing engineers! Wait, I am one. ;D Mechanical engineer, that is.
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 18, 2007 12:07:43 GMT
I know the Heed circuit and its about as simple as it gets, it does sound quite good for what it is but theres other units out there that is better, infact quite a lot better. Can the Heed be improved upon, of course it can! looking at its layout and PSU's is the clue , problem is its going to raise the price a fair bit. Lots of people still own the Heed and are happy with it so good for them IMO
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 18, 2007 12:18:04 GMT
BTW people who claim not to be able to hear a difference between something like an Edicron valve and a NOS Mil spec Mullard must have very poor hearing.
I've compared different brands of small double triodes and the larger output valves here and everybody who was here clearly heard a difference
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Post by dw6928 on Nov 18, 2007 14:16:23 GMT
I bought my first desktop amp (Heed for $340) on the recommendation of a new friend (Mrarroyo). Obviously it is superseded by many other amps in its class but at the time, for the money, it was a wonderful buy. It has held up flawlessly and runs all of my headphones (701s, Denon D2000, Ultrasone 2500 and Senn HD650...all recabled by the way) extremely well. I have run through about 10 portable amps in the same time period but the Heed just keeps hanging around. One day I will step up in class and in dollars but until then, it serves quite well. I do understand there may have been some qualitative "compromises" since the original intro, but that may be rumor.
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Nov 18, 2007 14:24:42 GMT
lso interesseting to see some forum members say that the little pinkie just gets so much better over time. I cannot understand that at all. The current is the same. It's just having a non-hifi perspective on things. I am medical doctor, so well, maybe I like the 'measured evidence' of things beeing as they are, not subjective 'feelings' any "part" with a function be it mechanical or electronic is nothing until it is mated with other "parts" which are then put to some use.In the case of mechanical parts there will be a certain amount of stiffness as the parts wear into each other and this may or may not be measurable depending on the severity of the wear but is there just the same. even a shoe is "stiff" until someone actually walks in it even though it is still a shoe once broken in and remains that until it becomes a "worn out" shoe with the cachungs (where the sole flaps with each step making a "cachung" sound ) well it is the same for electronic parts but in this case it is electrical current doing the "breaking in" so the parts can settle in and perform the task at hand. ever notice there is a smell to new electronics when they are used for the first time ? That it is there for a while and then suddenly it is no more ? Yup."Burn In" baby
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Post by krisno on Nov 18, 2007 15:15:22 GMT
You might be right... But if there is no measurable difference, I wonder if the human ear can hear it. The human ear is not a flawless design. It's mechanical stuff, I would believe that the differences in 'electron transport' is on such a micro level that human ears and nerves cannot pick it up. But I can agree to one thing, the little pinkie will increase the sound of the X-can alot compared to stock wallmart, because of the inferior power the stock wall-mart delivers. But then again, I actually just orderd the little pinkie on the reviews I have read on the X-Can and Stereophile 'Do not consider the X-PSU an accessory'. Tubes probably need alot of power, as I see the sizes of the PSU on stuff like Woo Amp 6+, and other 'tube amps'. So little pinke will be great. But I can guranatee, that I will not hear any difference on a little pinkie used for 6months and a little pinkie that is brand new. But maybe that's me. I can paste this little mail from AKG engineers about the 'break-in' of AKG K 701. "From our experience and knowledge we cannot confirm that there is a burn in effect of the transducers taking place. Normally, the sound of headphones changes only over many years and then mainly caused by the ear pads (less low end since the ear pads get more densely by sweat etc.). However, during the first hours of use of headphones, the ear pads - in the beginning a little stiff - start to accommodate to the users ears and head and the sealing becomes better, as a result the bass can be increased a little, on the other hand the distance between the headphones and the ear may become closer, i.e. fewer air volume between ears and headphones is available and thus less bass. " Have a nice weekend.. and again thanks for nice replies. I am not here to 'shatter' the dream of the Hifi guys. I like Hifi my self, and I can hear differences on cables used in expensive steroe's etc. Whcih I never thought I would hear. Sometimes quite vastly, but I never experienced a burn-in effect, ever. But maybe, burn-in makes electrons pass through amplifiers easier over 'time'. But I still don't believe this difference is audible to humans with normal ears. MAYBE a person who has been blind the last 20 years can hear the difference.... 'Fortunatly', few of us will ever experience that, and with what a cost? Kris
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Nov 18, 2007 16:39:06 GMT
Kris,
The Heed may be built in Eastern Europe but I suspect a lot of the Musical Fidelity gear will be constructed in China, not exactly made in the UK.
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Post by krisno on Nov 18, 2007 17:03:03 GMT
You have misunderstood the point completly.
The Heed is made, sourced, and designed by 2 brothers in eastern europe. (Eastern europe has never ever made anything good as long as I can remember). The Heed is also a LOW VOLUME product, keeping costs high.
Musical Fidelity and NAD, designed by british engineers, made in Taiwan, but also with PRODUCTIONS OF SCALE. Making each 'X-Can v3' alot cheaper in production, than a low volume product like the Heed.
The thing is that MF and NAD and B&W can afford making good sounding products, with alot of nice 'transistors', because the scale of production(high volume), make it 'cheaper' for them to make it. If the brothers made the X-CAn V3, i expect the cost to be twice the MF price.. But that is my personal thought...
It's all about 'mass volume'. That is why Hifi is expensive, but a very good sounding stereo from Dixon's sound very good too, but at 1/5th of the cost.. Go figure..
And yes, I would go for a Taiwan product(the MF) any day, compared to eastern european crap. Chinese though, I wouldn't touch it, but they are getting better...
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Nov 18, 2007 17:57:41 GMT
But if there is no measurable difference, I wonder if the human ear can hear it. The human ear is not a flawless design. It's mechanical stuff, I would believe that the differences in 'electron transport' is on such a micro level that human ears and nerves cannot pick it up.there is a very large body of evidence that suggests quite the opposite that even a human ear that has deteriorating upper octave response can "sense" the absence of notes and in fact is far more accurate in judging what is right than any bench instruments yet devised by humans to emulate it. Take two measure the same and on a qualitive basis and you usually will have two amps that sound totally different.Does this mean measurements or meaningless ? Nope.Just means we do not always know what or how to match what we hear with what we measure on the bench and is why a wise designer will formulate a design on paper,build a mock ups that are tweaked to have good on paper performance THEN do the final "design" tuning by ear.Changing a part or two may or may not have a measurable effect but there is no doubt that the swap will have audible consequences and why high end audio is 90% science sprinkled with 10% art
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2007 20:07:37 GMT
"there is a very large body of evidence that suggests quite the opposite that even a human ear that has deteriorating upper octave response can "sense" the absence of notes and in fact is far more accurate in judging what is right than any bench instruments yet devised by humans to emulate it." Several Sydney based members who have heard my extensively modified Class A Preamplifier, Class A amplifier,AND X-DAC V3, and met me, should be able to vouch for that statement. I have Industrial type hearing damage from 44 years in Telecommunications, yet I believe that I can pretty accurately judge what is right. (or wrong) SandyK
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Nov 18, 2007 22:47:10 GMT
Just because you can not measure something does not mean it does not exist. Alternatively just because two measurements are the same are the pieces of gear comparable in looks, build quality, cost, weight, etc.
There is much more out there than just measurements. At the end of the day you either experience it and then believe or you do not. The interesting part is that many who have not learned what to look for may say something does not exist because they do not know what to look or listen for. The opposite is true as well, someone spends $15,000 on a power cord and "hears" a difference. Maybe he does or maybe he is justifying the $15,000 purchase.
Truth is some believe and others do not in burn in. Thank God we have not discussed if a piece of electronic gear sounds the same the moment you turn it on versus after 1 hour of warming up.
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Nov 19, 2007 10:26:11 GMT
You have misunderstood the point completly. The Heed is made, sourced, and designed by 2 brothers in eastern europe. (Eastern europe has never ever made anything good as long as I can remember). The Heed is also a LOW VOLUME product, keeping costs high. Musical Fidelity and NAD, designed by british engineers, made in Taiwan, but also with PRODUCTIONS OF SCALE. Making each 'X-Can v3' alot cheaper in production, than a low volume product like the Heed. The thing is that MF and NAD and B&W can afford making good sounding products, with alot of nice 'transistors', because the scale of production(high volume), make it 'cheaper' for them to make it. If the brothers made the X-CAn V3, i expect the cost to be twice the MF price.. But that is my personal thought... It's all about 'mass volume'. That is why Hifi is expensive, but a very good sounding stereo from Dixon's sound very good too, but at 1/5th of the cost.. Go figure.. And yes, I would go for a Taiwan product(the MF) any day, compared to eastern european crap. Chinese though, I wouldn't touch it, but they are getting better... Maybe I have misunderstood your point but do we agree on the following? a) You can't judge a product (headphone amp) without listening to it. b) You can't judge a product (headphone amp) on where it was made. Especially without having ever heard it.
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Post by rowuk on Nov 19, 2007 13:23:11 GMT
High end audio is 90% marketing and 10% reality. The reality can be pretty ugly and have nothing to do with the sound either!
One can maximize the odds by learning to read the specs. That also involves considering the source of the specs. Graham Slee has some excellent parallels between published spec of op amps and their suitability in the circuit.
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Post by krisno on Nov 19, 2007 15:51:22 GMT
Nigel
I agree...
But experience leads the way. I will not get a amp which gets good ratings on a 'forum', if its from eastern europe and I have to order it via Finland. I just won't... It might sound good, it might not.
I honestly believe that the Heed is not worth the money, that it is not a musical amp, as it lacks the 'fine transistors'. Transistors make the sound. But I might be wrong.. but the thing probably is analytical yes.
Also I won't buy 'the first product' somebody makes, even less, when 2 brothers... But it's a niche thing, so yes, the heed might be excellent. I won't get it anyways..... I never seen a single good eastern european brand. Product produced in eastern europe for the 'big guys' on spec, can be good... but hungarian brands? hehe. I will never ever buy it, and pay the same as for MF or NAD products.
The build quailty just seems 'cheepish'. But well... As you said, I never heard it, and never will. But I just wanted to explain why I would never get it...
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 19, 2007 16:34:10 GMT
Whats considered as fine transistors? using anything too fancy in the Heed circuit would be a waste due to its design, this is not meaning to say the circuit is poor BTW. I've heard circuits much more complex than the Heed yet some sounds worse yet some other more complex circuits do sound a lot better.
Anyway so the Heed is definitely crossed off your list, theres a shit load of other options out there
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Post by PinkFloyd on Nov 19, 2007 18:05:23 GMT
I honestly believe that the Heed is not worth the money, that it is not a musical amp, as it lacks the 'fine transistors'. What on earth is a "fine transistor"? Sorry man but you've totally lost me there just slamming a load of "fine transistors" into a circuit does not a "fine amp" make... if you read what Rick said above it's 90% science and 10% art (or pot luck some may say!) never judge anything by it's design / looks / pedigree and always use your ears before opening your mouth
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rickcr42
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Post by rickcr42 on Nov 19, 2007 18:37:47 GMT
I don't agree.
Graham has posted NUMEROUS times on part selection and aiming for a certain "sound" yet not a single "spec" changed when capacitor "A" was swapped for capacitor "B" because they were the same in value which tells me he is no lab rat spec whore as many are (sell on specs alone,some of which canmake the most gawd awful sounding yet well measuing gear)
You can design with a target in mind but only a fool would say the design is finalized without doing a "sonic eval" using many examples of the same "type" parts unless already so experienced in the process that person already KNOWS what passive part ying will work with what active stage yang (sonic balance).
there is also the wild card of system synergy that comes when you mate any electronics meant to interface with electromehanical transducers that have "know" sonic profiles so for instance a phono stage that rules with an audio technica phono cartridge may not be the best choice for use with a Grado phono cartridge even if they SPEC identical may sound day and night different.
the same holds true of headphones and headphone amps and speakers with power amps and why some "sytems" can sound better than far more expensive ones assembled totally from spec sheets while disregarding interplay between the parts and their spectral balance.
A SINGLE coupling cap can and will change the sound of the entire system while the data will remain constant...............
there is no "best" anything only good partnerships and even those can go from sounds good to orgasmic in the mating with the trick being to hit on the combinations that work for a particular system
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2007 22:13:41 GMT
"just slamming a load of "fine transistors" into a circuit does not a "fine amp" make... "
e.g. Despite all the years of using the finest transistors in a Differential Pair, which is commonly used in the majority of modern power amplifiers, they still haven't learned how to coax the very best performance out of them. Not even the renowned Douglas Self, whose books are reference material for many designers, appears to have worked out how. SandyK
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Post by dc on Nov 19, 2007 22:48:40 GMT
and by the way... in my experience the heed canamp doesn't sound analytical at all.
far from it, it's quite a musical amplifier
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Nov 19, 2007 23:21:37 GMT
and by the way... in my experience the heed canamp doesn't sound analytical at all. far from it, it's quite a musical amplifier And at the $340 price a major bargain.
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Nov 19, 2007 23:53:34 GMT
Personally, I wouldn't touch it. It's made in Eastern Europe.
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