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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 18:30:31 GMT
P.S. Try something like those little blue chip 100nF monolithic under the PCB. Hi Alex Good thinking Batman yup got hooked up in the everything must go on the board trip so thanks for the suggestion. those Vanguard do look tempting especially at the price. my Trident turned up today so waiting for the Italian Stallion case to arrive and good to make a start. I'm still waiting on the Buffer to arrive for Will's PK. Oh whist on the subject. I've been having a play with various cables (diy and commercial) and the same sensitivity to cabling stood out in much the same way as with Will's PK. the 5102 seems just as picky as the PK about not liking to drive capacitance very much. the Tellurium's which sounded glorious with the BIII sounded flat as a turd with the 5102. measured pretty high cap wise also. so i dug out my cable armory and had a play. i settled on Chord Chameleon 2 which IMHO gave the best sound balance with my great RG challenge just a whisker behind. both fairly low capacitance. VDH the second sounded a little sat on with this DAC and the Mundorf a tad whispy. So my suggestion leaving cable metals behind for a moment. is silver, copper, string whatever, be sure to use a low capacitance cable with this DAC. same goes for the PK IMHO. take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Dec 13, 2012 18:59:58 GMT
Excellent stuff Shaun and thanks for the updates I've read the Gold 0.3ppm Vanguard is 3.3-5v where as the 1ppm is only 5v. The gold one was only a few pounds extra so I ordered it, it arrived today. I'll try it in the Burson module as this makes things quick and easy. The first thing I'll do is try the divided by 4 output to run the QA550. I can compare it against the Tent XO currently in there. If that all works ok I can also run the other output to the PCM5102 Oh thanks to Alex for making me aware of the 0.3ppm version
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 23:22:53 GMT
Hi Leo I'm looking forward to your opinions re the clock. Does the Burston have a buffered OP? just wondering what those two chips are for. the Burston looks nice BTW. if we could have some details of the divide down circuit that would be nice (flip flops I'm assuming). I'm not in need but others may be interested. having used the 9023 and 5102 i just can't quite get away from the idea that there relatively low OP current (cable driving ability) is a bit of an Achilles heal for these chips. i liked the 9023 better with the DCB1 buffer but that's a little on the big side for every day use. i have the buffer on order for Will's PK but I'm thinking of trying an nice compact Op amp based buffer for the 5102. any hints in the right direction would help. a little nudge in the required direction and the ability for a little more even handedness with cables could be good. 3V3 would be better for me as that's where the Tent and Trident are at so the Vanguard gold looks a good bet. I'll be swapping in the Trident tomorrow which may be interesting. take care
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 0:23:50 GMT
Although I am using the .3PPM TCXO in Leo's photo at +5V, the original ebay seller mentioned only +5V .Perhaps Leo can clarify this ?
Although many DIYers use them without a buffer stage, they will alway be picky about the cable capacitance seen,and the sound will vary according to the type and capacitance of the interconnects used.That is NOT good for repeatable results.Some preamps and power amps may not like the resultant higher level wideband crap from some DAC chips either. DAC chips in general are NOT designed to directly drive interconnmects, and may in some implementations suffer damage. Alex
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Post by leo on Dec 14, 2012 18:06:57 GMT
Hi Shaun, It looks like the Burson buffers the output as well as divided by 2 and 4. I'll try and draw it out, I need some simple circuit drawing software for me little netbook. I think I need to try alternatives for the divider. Reason being I now compared the divided 4 out of the Burson against the 11.2896mhz Tent into the QA550. I think the Tent was slightly better. Either the divider on the Burson isn't the best or the Tent is just a better XO. To be fair the difference isn't huge though. The plan was to just try the Burson and then build something using a PH shunt and divider knocked up on vero after I knew it worked . Running the 45.1584mhz output into the PCM5102 certainly does change things, I'd agree with your findings. For me the biggest difference is the extra clarity and better focus, I can hear this better focus mainly with vocals Regarding a simple buffer the easiest thing I can think of is 1x dual op-amp for L&R set for unity gain with the dac straight in the non inverted input. The supply may be the snag unless you can fit a dual supply, if not a single supply with coupling cap or maybe try a rail splitter? Dac doesn't sound half bad though and still lots for us to try eh
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Post by leo on Dec 14, 2012 18:21:41 GMT
Although I am using the .3PPM TCXO in Leo's photo at +5V, the original ebay seller mentioned only +5V .Perhaps Leo can clarify this ? Although many DIYers use them without a buffer stage, they will alway be picky about the cable capacitance seen,and the sound will vary according to the type and capacitance of the interconnects used.That is NOT good for repeatable results.Some preamps and power amps may not like the resultant higher level wideband crap from some DAC chips either. DAC chips in general are NOT designed to directly drive interconnmects, and may in some implementations suffer damage. Alex Hi Alex, Theres a few places which show the golden Vanguard can be ran at 3.3-5v. It seems to be working ok here at 3.3v, I don't think my scopes high enough bandwidth to properly look at it www.vocativeaudio.com/Accessories.html
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 18:24:48 GMT
Hi Alex ''Although many DIYers use them without a buffer stage, they will alway be picky about the cable capacitance seen,and the sound will vary according to the type and capacitance of the interconnects used'' yes that's pretty much what I've found with these two DAC's. even though the 9022/3 and 5102 both have a built in op amp for easy implementation. but they where also designed to be cost effective and where mA cost £ PSU wise i suspect that they pared things down as much as possible current wise. wide band crap well i think that the PK benefits a little from the OP caps but that's just a personal thing. TBH both of these little chips sound good and are easy to implement. I'm looking forward to trying the OP buffer on Wills PK as i think that it may hold part of the answer cable choice wise. I've found that treated in the same way as a passive (pot in a box) pre cable wise the 9023 and 5102 sound exceptional in different ways especially for the cost of the chips. still I'm rebuilding the PK right now so I'll post on that when i have the buffer installed. take care
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 22:29:10 GMT
Hi Shaun, It looks like the Burson buffers the output as well as divided by 2 and 4. I'll try and draw it out, I need some simple circuit drawing software for me little netbook. I think I need to try alternatives for the divider. Reason being I now compared the divided 4 out of the Burson against the 11.2896mhz Tent into the QA550. I think the Tent was slightly better. Either the divider on the Burson isn't the best or the Tent is just a better XO. To be fair the difference isn't huge though. The plan was to just try the Burson and then build something using a PH shunt and divider knocked up on vero after I knew it worked . Running the 45.1584mhz output into the PCM5102 certainly does change things, I'd agree with your findings. For me the biggest difference is the extra clarity and better focus, I can hear this better focus mainly with vocals Regarding a simple buffer the easiest thing I can think of is 1x dual op-amp for L&R set for unity gain with the dac straight in the non inverted input. The supply may be the snag unless you can fit a dual supply, if not a single supply with coupling cap or maybe try a rail splitter? Dac doesn't sound half bad though and still lots for us to try eh Hi Leo I've not had time to check out the Trident today but maybe tomorrow if all goes to plan. good stuff on trying the burston and brings an interesting question. what has the biggest impact on the SQ? PSU or clock. what are you powering the Tent OX with? just out of interest. is the burston a series or shunt? PH shunt sounds interesting I'm pretty sure that the differences between clocks at this quality level are going to be small but I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the Vanguard with a different supply. SQ sometimes I'm reading the paper and forget to put on the specks. yup i can still read it but with a reminder from my Wife i put them on and Wham everything snaps into focus. same when i put the Tent shunt/OX in. thing is i can't help thinking that a less expensive way would be better in the spirit of things so I'm hoping that the Vanguard may be good enough. on the dual supply er no problemo on that. i need to tidy my build up a little and i have room. yes sounding pretty impressive especially for the price and simplicity of build. and still a few things to try take care
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 23:15:35 GMT
Hi Shaun Where these simple DAC chips may really shine, is with perhaps a 100R output resistor and a selected value output cap to earth, and then integrated into the same case as the preamp via the selector switch. Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2012 13:07:44 GMT
Hi Shaun Where these simple DAC chips may really shine, is with perhaps a 100R output resistor and a selected value output cap to earth, and then integrated into the same case as the preamp via the selector switch. Regards Alex Hi Alex i agree in part with the above especially for Will's PK but i think that the 5102 can live quite nicely without the OP filter. just a hunch but I'll try fitting one at some point to hear the difference. i think that with this DAC it's just as much about knowing the rules of the game IE keeping to low capacitance cables and not going toooo mad with the cable length. anyhow so today i had a little play with PSU for the Tent OX. interesting started with the internal PPL, let things warm up and had a listen. then i wired in the XO and adjusted Will's nice linear PSU feeding the XO PSU to 5V25 for the trident. yup made a nice difference to the clarity of the sound. more detailed with more depth to the sound. all together a noticeable improvement IMHO. So next i set Will's PSU to 7V for the Tent PSU unfortunately it sounded all together better than the Trident with more air and errrr how to put it. liquidity? the sound was a little more fluid and had a little more fine detail. i say unfortunately because the Trident is half the cost of the Tent but for a lower cost unit the trident gives enough improvement to make the change to Tent hard to spot initially. it's only with extended listening that the difference becomes more apparent. so as a cost effective option the Trident sounds pretty darn good but it's just that i heard the Tent first so i know what I'm missing. i would like to try the Trident with the Vanguard gold as a lower cost option so I'll get one ordered up and make a board for it. Vanguard looks like a 14 pin DIL fitting? which should not be so hard to make up. what has surprised me the most is how sensitive the cheap 5102 is to changes. the Salas with PPL IMHO sounded better than the linear i had used for testing. but for me the biggest jump was the external OX with a decent PSU. well the sound per £ just makes me gasp. the 5102 is sounding pretty expensive at the moment. I'd put this little DAC against commercial stuff costing 3 times as much with more than a little confidence. just confirmed how important the PSU can be and makes me wonder how much commercial manufacturers throw away for the sake of cost and construction ease. good job Leo a great sounding DAC at a good price which can be improved in stages. ideal for a beginner like me so now I'll try the same thing with Will's PK which should be interesting as it has slightly different needs compared to the 5102. with ESS9023 from what I've read here is more interested in Phase noise and the 5102 may be more prone to jitter problems. just waiting on the case for the rebuild on Will's PK take care
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2012 13:30:37 GMT
Yes indeed it will. A blow by blow pictorial account would be very informative
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2012 14:27:46 GMT
Yes indeed it will. A blow by blow pictorial account would be very informative Hi Chris no worries on that front. i have the PSU's, clock and DAC board fitted to the bottom plate so i'll post a picture of that within the next few days. just waiting on the OP buffer and case to arrive and then good to go. take care
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2012 17:07:10 GMT
Hi Shaun, following your exploits on this thread with interest. What OP buffer are you waiting for? Looking forward to your blow by blow. Alan
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2012 20:33:55 GMT
It also makes it very simple to make a layout that takes both sizes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 0:36:40 GMT
Hi Shaun, following your exploits on this thread with interest. What OP buffer are you waiting for? Looking forward to your blow by blow. Alan Hi Alan I've posted on the PK thread to keep things simple. Hi Alex ''It also makes it very simple to make a layout that takes both sizes''. yes agreed and I'll start working on that board pretty soon. take care
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 16:12:04 GMT
It also makes it very simple to make a layout that takes both sizes. Hi Alex I've ordered the 45Mhz Vanguard gold and have started on the new multi clock board layout keeping in mind your suggestions I've managed to shrink the board a little also. OK just a quick question in the details provided by the eBay seller the TCXO has a 15pf cap between OP and ground. i do remember from our past discussions that you mentioned an XO ''tuning cap'' and was wondering if such a cap was needed here. i can leave a space for a plug in cap if it's needed otherwise I'll take it out and save on board space. all new to me it will be interesting to compare it to the Tent. take care
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 21:26:08 GMT
Shaun Why not mount the 15pF cap under the PCB along with the special 100nF bypass cap ? Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 23:13:15 GMT
Shaun Why not mount the 15pF cap under the PCB along with the special 100nF bypass cap ? Regards Alex Hi Alex yes i was thinking of that but was wondering if that cap is specific to the Vanguard? if so I'm thinking of using some turned sockets (thanks Leo) so that i can plug in different values that may be required for other clocks. just hoping to get a little more flexibility out of the board. thing is with the 100nf it's not needed for the Tent shunt as it has one built in to it's OP so i may need to try the same trick with that one also. I'll try to find a way of posting my artwork for a little guidance on layout. thanks take care
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2012 12:17:15 GMT
Hi All the Vanguard TCXO arrived this morning so I'll be trying that out over the next week with the Tent shunt and Trident PSU's. take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Dec 25, 2012 19:43:49 GMT
That didn't take long to come Shaun . Let us know what you think. I'll be surprised if its as good as the Tent. Obviously the Tent has the advantage in my setup being run from the Paul hynes micro shunt and fed straight into the QA550 without being divided (11.2896 mhz Tent versus the divided 45.1584 mhz Vanguard) I've not put a cap on output mine, nearest values I have is 10pf and 22pf so may try them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2012 16:25:23 GMT
That didn't take long to come Shaun . Let us know what you think. I'll be surprised if its as good as the Tent. Obviously the Tent has the advantage in my setup being run from the Paul hynes micro shunt and fed straight into the QA550 without being divided (11.2896 mhz Tent versus the divided 45.1584 mhz Vanguard) I've not put a cap on output mine, nearest values I have is 10pf and 22pf so may try them. Hi Leo speedy delivery on the Vanguard. i must say though the Tent clocks have done the business on the 5102 and Will's PK. Both are sounding pretty impressive ATM in quite different ways. I've just hooked the 15pf on the OP of the vanguard because the little snippet of info published by the vendor shows one. I'll try with and without to hear if it makes a difference. on Alex's recommendation I've made a multi-clock board with a 14 pin DIL for quick swapping the clocks. mmm I've found that the PSU does make some difference and i could hear the change from Tent shunt to Trident. not huge but there all the same so it may be worth trying the Vanguard with PH before choosing clocks. the XEN buffer on Wills PK sounds great ad avoids the cable sensitivity I've noticed with these two DACS. i may just have to go for another without the filter to try with the 5102. on the division side of things I'm still preferring ASYNC with both of these DACS so an optimized clock/PSU arrangement for each device would be my choice. oh i forgot to ask what are you powering the 5102 chip with? I'm still using Salas and very happy with it but I'd love to try batteries at some point. take care
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Post by leo on Dec 26, 2012 22:36:33 GMT
Hi Shaun,
I borrowed one of the BII AVCC regs to use with the 5102 which is currently a Paul Hynes mini series reg. After comparing the shunt against the series reg I personally liked the series better on the BII AVCC (analogue section) and the mini shunts on the digital sections eg the XO.
The main psu I use running the QA550 and 5102 is a little weedy tbh, I'll try a shunt with the 5102 soon as I beefed it up to take the extra current of the shunt. I'll also try the shunt with the Vanguard XO and report back if it makes any difference.
My torch uses a couple of A123 LiFePO4 batteries so I tried one of those with the 5102, it sounded quite nice but I liked the reg better. Maybe things will change after trying out alternative decoupling caps. Maybe the batteries work best with a particular decoupling combo?
I've not really felt the need to use a buffer with the 5102, I'll probably give it a go though, something simple.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 14:53:01 GMT
Hi Leo
yes i had a little play around with regs for the Tent XO and the Tent shunt sounded best IMHO with the Trident not to far behind. using the series 317 to power the XO sounded pretty bad in comparison to the shunts.
likewise i found the 5102 a little vague sounding with a series reg but better with the Salas shunt.
i have a spare Salas +ve board and mini kit should you become bored with pulling the legs off of spiders you'd be welcome to it. I've found them to be pretty good and very versatile.
all that's needed your end is a few caps, diodes and a multiturn pot.
let me know
i can post it out to you.
I'll be looking at trying the Vanguard with the Trident mostly for a more cost effective solution.
as i said previously the Tent XO shunt combination works well with the 5102 and Will's PK.
now that's interesting as the 9023 is more sensitive to phase noise and the 5102 to jitter. (i think)
I'll get round to the Vanguard once the Family thing is out of the way.
take care
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2013 16:22:35 GMT
Hi All
i finally got round to trying the 45Mhz Vanguard today with Tent shunt and after a short listen I'd say to my ears that it looses a little fine detail compared to the Tent XO.
it also sounds a little more rounded in my set up but the differences are not huge.
maybe not big enough to justify the price differences between the two units.
I've also tried with Will's PK with interesting results.
take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Jan 5, 2013 23:50:23 GMT
Thanks for the update Shaun, I found the Vanguard a little more rounded here too although its better than the stock XO. Think I'm going to keep the Tent running the QA550 (nstead of divider with vanguard) and use the vanguard just with the 5102.
Wouldn't mind trying the Salas +ve and mini thanks, I can send it you back after knocking it up and given it a go.
Oh, I dug the hiface out, should really get that rigged up to this thing, I'm interested to know how it compares against the QA550 as a source
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