leo
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Post by leo on Oct 6, 2012 23:36:33 GMT
Had a few people ask if i'd tried the pcm5102 dac chip, it was new to me but after a quick search around it seems they are becoming popular. Anyway I had a look at the datasheet, not the greatest spec but it looked so simple to try. Not really had any time for diy in a while so thought I'd give it a go for the laugh. I simply set it for I2S input and ran it from the modded QA550 SD card players I2S output. One of the interesting features of the PCM5102's is the selectable digital filters so I added a socket and shorting plug on the required chip pins to allow for comparing. The black socket allows to try different voltage sources. I gave it several hours before listening to it. I was expecting it to be a pile of shite but was quite surprised , the sound was quite pleasant. It reminds me of my TDA1541 based Audial dac but doesn't dig as deep into the recordings yet as that one imo. Bass doesn't go as deep . This thing is so cheap and simple to use though, I'll play around with it to see if its got more to give. All the info needed is in the datasheets incase anybody gets bored and wants to try one .
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Oct 7, 2012 7:34:42 GMT
Leo So what's next? play around with the filters then try dome low noise/impedance psu's for the dac V+'s
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 12:50:11 GMT
Hi Leo How’s it going? No time for DIY well you can join the club on that front. But I’m still collecting a few winter warmer DIY projects for the time when the work grinds to a halt this end. (more on those later) for today I have special dispensation from the commandante for a take it easy day off. Pcm5102 yes I’ve read a little on this chip over on DIYA (Patrick’s work) and it seems to have divided opinion as most things always seem to do. www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/192727-pcm5102-2vrms-ground-centered-direct-output-two-digital-filters.htmlthe low latancy filter option looks interesting It has some interesting features the most interesting of which seems to be that it generates its own master clock so makes for simple PSU and connection). From what I’ve read the bass can be improved a little by increasing the cap size on the charge pump so that could be worth thinking on. The thing I find really intriguing is your association sound wise with your TDA1541 based Audial dac. Well that’s one that I’ve not heard but would have liked to check out and from what I’ve read its NOS done properly. JK has also used the 5102 in his DAC32 I think with Hiface front end and battery PSU which has had some nice reviews (six moons for one) Battery powered portable seems like a neat idea to me and one that I may have a go at once the weather gets bad (garden landscaping and concrete slab laying postponed when that happens). I’m curious That black board that you have the 5102 on? Take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Oct 7, 2012 16:56:57 GMT
Leo So what's next? play around with the filters then try dome low noise/impedance psu's for the dac V+'s I tried it with a WM8804 today so it could be used with other spdif sources. The sound was definitely worse, using it straight I2S from the QA550 was far better. I'll need to look further into this but for now I'll keep it I2S direct. I also tried the standard passive filter on the output but liked it best without . I tried 3x separate regs for the pcm5102 but didn't notice much improvement over using a single one so I decided to keep a single one. I can try different type regs now as well as a battery. Theres also an audible difference between the two digital filters so that switching comes in handy
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leo
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Post by leo on Oct 7, 2012 17:30:23 GMT
Hi Leo How’s it going? No time for DIY well you can join the club on that front. But I’m still collecting a few winter warmer DIY projects for the time when the work grinds to a halt this end. (more on those later) for today I have special dispensation from the commandante for a take it easy day off. Pcm5102 yes I’ve read a little on this chip over on DIYA (Patrick’s work) and it seems to have divided opinion as most things always seem to do. www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/192727-pcm5102-2vrms-ground-centered-direct-output-two-digital-filters.htmlthe low latancy filter option looks interesting It has some interesting features the most interesting of which seems to be that it generates its own master clock so makes for simple PSU and connection). From what I’ve read the bass can be improved a little by increasing the cap size on the charge pump so that could be worth thinking on. The thing I find really intriguing is your association sound wise with your TDA1541 based Audial dac. Well that’s one that I’ve not heard but would have liked to check out and from what I’ve read its NOS done properly. JK has also used the 5102 in his DAC32 I think with Hiface front end and battery PSU which has had some nice reviews (six moons for one) Battery powered portable seems like a neat idea to me and one that I may have a go at once the weather gets bad (garden landscaping and concrete slab laying postponed when that happens). I’m curious That black board that you have the 5102 on? Take care Hi Shaun, I'm doing ok thanks, how about yourself? The forum is running really slow my end, its timed out a few times I tried replying for some reason. I've really been slacking with the diy projects lately must try and do some more at the weekends now the weathers getting cold Me and my other half usually visit the National trust places at the weekends. I'd say the PCM5102 sounds quite different to the ES9022, its probably more towards the TDA's, so far its sort of like a cheaper and less refined version to my ears. Its certainly not on par with the Audial but I have to remember its only knocked up basic. Maybe it'll get better after a little tweaking? Obviously we have less options with these all in one chips . For a cheapo though its pretty damn good and is so easy to try out. I want to try some better supplies next. Ta for the tip regarding the charge pump cap. So far I use a 3.3uf Wima on the charge pump, 10uf Oscon on the vneg and AVDD with 100nf ceramics on the other pins as shown in the datasheet. Just mainly bits from that scrap box. As mentioned above no output filter is used. I also liked low latency filter best. I did read JK was using the PCM5102, it would be an ideal solution to use with the Hiface making a nice compact package, well done to him The little adapter board is a 20pin SSOP Winslow W9597RC , I got it from a friend, may have been ebay? I can check if you like?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 23:18:00 GMT
Hi Leo Yes we are both life members of the NT here(wedding gift) but don’t get much time for that stuff with all of the house stuff going on. ‘’I'd say the PCM5102 sounds quite different to the ES9022, its probably more towards the TDA's, so far its sort of like a cheaper and less refined version to my ears’’. Yup I’ve heard it compared to Peter Daniels NOS DAC also so no bad thing there. I still use Will’s PK ES9023 and of course the Buffalo which I’m still loving so building another same sounding DAC just don’t really excite me that much. Now a NOS sounding DAC well that’s more interesting IMHO. ‘’its certainly not on par with the Audial’’ It would be a miracle if it was as good as the Audial is reported to be but building the best is not everything now is it. Learning a little more is better. Oh the other thing that I read was that increasing the PSU to 3.6V helps some of the charge pump imbalance (think I read that right) which is pretty much why ESS did the same thing for the 9023. Worth a go but without the board to try for myself before recommending it well. Not my way but the data sheet states 3.6V max if I remember rightly. ‘’As mentioned above no output filter is used’’ Well as you mention it ;D I have one of the Joachim Gerhard Filter Buffer for ES9022 (Patrick) on order to try out. I still prefer that DAC with a buffered OP. but that's a long way off also. Thanks Leo but I had a closer look at the picture and realised it was a tssot/ssot to dip adaptor. I’ve ordered 2x 20 pin from Ebay for use later. ‘’I tried it with a WM8804 today so it could be used with other spdif sources’’ Interesting How have you clocked the WM8804?(grandmother and eggs come to mind but i thought i'd ask) ‘’Maybe it'll get better after a little tweaking’’ MMmmm as you say not much room for tweaking which could have something to do with the 5102 internal clocking arrangement. So the PSU may be the best place to start (a nice shunt?). I think that I read somewhere that that internal clock can be switched off (I may be wrong). In which case you could try SYNC to the SD reader’s XO just for fun. Maybe Wills implementation of the 9023 has the edge in that respect IE it has a nice quality XO and dedicated PSU to drive it along. So if you don’t mind a slight delay I’d like to join in. Take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Oct 8, 2012 19:13:41 GMT
Hi Shaun, Will's PK dac is an excellent little thing, I use it mainly with the Headphone amp, being so compact its great to use upstairs or plug into the pc etc. If you remember the ES9023 died in mine so I had to fit the ES9022 for now until I get a replacement. I still use the modded BII and the Audial AYAII, I like both of those dacs , its nice to swap things about when you fancy a change. I really want to try the SEN I/V with the BII at some stage, I still feel the Legato output stage is the limiting area now with my BII. With the WM8804 I tried the 5102 with and without the clock but I still think the ES9022 coped better here used with the spdif chip, maybe that ES9022 Jitter Eliminator actually does do something Using the 5102 with the QA550 I2S changes things though IMO, I'm now not sure which I like best between the cheapo's. The 9022 is like a MC cartridge and the 5102 is like a MM if that makes sense I tried a LiFePO4 battery with the 5102, theres definitely an improvement there! It sounds more tidy, more rythm, more space between instruments. You get that higher end sound. I'll probably borrow one of the series regs and also a shunt from the BII to see how well those compare. I'll update things when I can
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2012 22:05:21 GMT
Hi Leo ‘’Will's PK dac is an excellent little thing, I use it mainly with the Headphone amp, being so compact its great to use upstairs or plug into the pc etc. If you remember the ES9023 died in mine so I had to fit the ES9022 for now until I get a replacement’’. Yes I totally agree Wills DAC is just superb especially when the cost is considered and blew my CA DACmagic all the way to a friend’s house. i really learned something building that DAC Those made for blue ray chips are great value and great sounding. with the 22 There was a slight problem reported with the negative OP from the charge pump which caused a small amount of clipping on that side. Apparently that’s what changed with the 23 just sight jump in Vin MAX. A little more V on the OP + AND – helped the headroom enough to get past said clip. Maybe why the chips sound a little different but a common thing with the charge pump arrangement apparently. i thought at the time that the slight increase in IP V would make not much difference and wondered why they had bothered. now i know Could be the same with the 5102 so could be worth looking at when you have time. Interesting that the battery made a difference and gives hope for the quality PSU insert fix thang. Let’s hope so. ‘’I still use the modded BII and the Audial AYAII, I like both of those dacs , its nice to swap things about when you fancy a change’’. Yup that’s my thoughts also; change is as good as a rest any time you want to have a change from the AYA well im here I have the Legato with ‘’look ma no OP caps’’ with buffer and to my ears in my set up it sounds fab. I remember your description of the buffalo sound (immersed in the music) yup that’s my take. It does almost everything really well. So much power and control coupled to such wonderful musicality. Big and expansive deep and wide well I could go on but OT? Mmmmmmmmmm lovely ‘’with the spdif chip, maybe that ES9022 Jitter Eliminator actually does do something Using the 5102 with the QA550 I2S changes things though IMO’’, Have you got that music PC up and running yet? If yes then that’s going to give you mucho flexibility to try some hi res stuff which could sound even better. Interesting to compare with the AYAII fixed at 16/44. Not that specs tell any of the story here but interesting to try. Have you checked out USB/I2S yet? That may work out pretty well and what I’m thinking of for the 5102 in time. JK seems to have the knack of being able to squeeze these budget DAC chips pretty hard and as you say ‘’good on him’’. I really loved the loan of Syd’s JK HIface. it was a real eye opener for me PC music wise. how nice it would be to (lightly) pick JK's brains on the 5102 DAC chip on its way errr to the holding projects bay. ‘’The 9022 is like a MC cartridge and the 5102 is like a MM if that makes sense ’’ Makes perfect sense in a MC = inner detail but can tend towards brightness unless carefully used. MM=lusher and warmer but not as much insight into the recording (showing my age) but maybe a little more musical. Something like that. The world is full of same sounding DAC’s so having something a little different is nice. ‘’I'll update things when I can ’’ No rush my end we have plenty to be getting on with this end if it stops raining. Time to start the rain dance Take care
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 8, 2012 23:46:34 GMT
Have been looking for some SMD adaptors. That's an interesting find. Where did you get it from and how much. I'm looking out for some 28 pins one to mount the TI/BB DAC chips that I have and also 8 pins SMD adaptor with removable capability for the SMD that can be soldered on a PCB with SMD form factor. Yup, you guess it right. For changing OP amp and DAC chips to try just like as in DIP form factor.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2012 21:34:20 GMT
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 10, 2012 3:10:30 GMT
Thanks. That and the SMD form factor type (if available) that can unclamp and clamp SMD just like the the DIP type plug and unplug. As I'm writng of SMD adaptor, must be with SMD foot prints at the bottom so that that SMD removable device adaptor can be soldered onto a SMD PCB. Top layer is where the SMD clamp and unclamp action is for removal like that of a DIP socket. Only for the DIP at the bottom is of the PTH form factor for soldering onto a PTH PCB.
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 16, 2012 22:38:26 GMT
Not much to update, what I can say is the more I listen to this the more I like it. Its not perfect but then agaiin what is? I'd like to try a 49.152mhz XO next.
Anybody having problems with the forum? a while now its been running really slow for me . I was wondering if its my netbook ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2012 23:56:53 GMT
Hi Leo
well i have the parts aand just need to get the iron out and hope for no magic smoke come switch on time.
have some tasks to get out of the way and then my next project will be the 5102.
did you get round to trying other PSU's
i have a Tent Shunt to play with come my birthday so it may be fun to try that out.
take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 17, 2012 0:01:08 GMT
Hi Shaun,
Let us know if you need any help or whatever;) its so simple to build you've not really lost much if it doesn't suit
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 17, 2012 0:34:54 GMT
Hi Leo well i have the parts aand just need to get the iron out and hope for no magic smoke come switch on time. have some tasks to get out of the way and then my next project will be the 5102. did you get round to trying other PSU's i have a Tent Shunt to play with come my birthday so it may be fun to try that out. take care I still mainly use the Paul Hynes mini series reg from the B2 AVCC, I've left the voltages a little higher (3.5v) Not sure what other caps etc to try, it sounds ok as is although I'm sure more can be had out of it A T0-92 sized reg from Maplin gave a noticeable hit in sound quality even when well filtered. A simple shunt reg based around simple TL431 wasn't that great either. Not tried a zener, transistor based yet. ANR26650 battery was better than Maplin reg and cheapo diy shunt. PH shunt reg was a lot better than the diy TL431 so I bet your Tent shunt wll be spot on, let us know how you find it You'll have to excuse delayed response, the speed is painfully slow not sure what the problem is.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 10:27:23 GMT
Hi Leo ‘’You'll have to excuse delayed response, the speed is painfully slow not sure what the problem is.’’ You must have stopped using those ‘’go faster stripes’’ that I sent you. ;D After having a look through the DATA sheet I’ve managed to work out pretty much most of it and was quite pleased that I managed to understand most of it. If I may just go through my settings with you just for my own piece of mind. XSMT (soft mute) LOW DEMP – LOW FMT – LOW FLT- I plan 47k on that from the 3V3 and a jumper to ground SCLK is of course grounded to use the 5102's internal clock. I’m hoping that the settings that I’ve proposed above are not wildly out. Have a look through and let me know if i have a smoke machine. Take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 17, 2012 18:51:47 GMT
Hi Leo ‘’You'll have to excuse delayed response, the speed is painfully slow not sure what the problem is.’’ You must have stopped using those ‘’go faster stripes’’ that I sent you. ;D After having a look through the DATA sheet I’ve managed to work out pretty much most of it and was quite pleased that I managed to understand most of it. If I may just go through my settings with you just for my own piece of mind. XSMT (soft mute) LOW DEMP – LOW FMT – LOW FLT- I plan 47k on that from the 3V3 and a jumper to ground SCLK is of course grounded to use the 5102's internal clock. I’m hoping that the settings that I’ve proposed above are not wildly out. Have a look through and let me know if i have a smoke machine. Take care Hi Shaun Its supposed to be 100mb broadband down here , damn things timed out several times I tried to reply XSMT (soft mute) LOW Mines set to high DVDD) DEMP – LOW YesFMT – LOW YesFLT- I plan 47k on that from the 3V3 and a jumper to ground Yes, thats how I did mine, allows easy comparing the filters SCLK is of course grounded to use the 5102's internal clock. I fitted a cut up DIL socket on the i2s lines just to allow series resistors , links etc . I have run the SCK to ground and then tried to the QA550 SCK. both worked ok. I also ran direct to a Tent 11.2896 (only value I had which worked) If possible may be worth allowing an option to fiddle for comparing later? if not just go to ground. Cheers, Leo
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 17, 2012 18:59:03 GMT
I'll draw a schematic later how I did mine, parts used etc. Obviously its only a quick knock up, it needs some tweaking.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 23:47:05 GMT
Hi Leo ''I fitted a cut up DIL socket on the i2s lines just to allow series resistors , links etc .'' good idea ''I have run the SCK to ground and then tried to the QA550 SCK. both worked ok. I also ran direct to a Tent 11.2896 (only value I had which worked) If possible may be worth allowing an option to fiddle for comparing later? if not just go to ground.'' I'm just thinking of using a link on SCK just to get things started (hopefully). it looks pretty easy to move things around after lift off. so I'll have a bash at building her up on Mon or Tues by which time the green house should be finished or be on the fire. a schematic would help to clarify things still further and would be useful as a reference but I'm just looking for a start at the moment. i usually try to use the following method working first. tweaking second. my expectations are not racing ahead of me so I'm not expecting much something that makes a sound will be a good place to start. what i find hard to believe is that with all of the nice reports on the SQ of the 5102. so few people have actually built one. maybe people think that it's toooo cheap to be good. maybe it is but I'm interested to find out thanks for the tips take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 18, 2012 0:53:07 GMT
Hi Shaun, Be interesting to hear what you think of it, certainly try a few different i2s sources if you can. I was quite surprised at how the sound varied with different sources. TBH I'd never have bothered to try this chip if a mate hadn't asked me, it looked so cheap and easy I didn't mind giving it a go. Good luck with the green house Cheers, Leo
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 10:18:18 GMT
Hi Shaun, Be interesting to hear what you think of it, certainly try a few different i2s sources if you can. I was quite surprised at how the sound varied with different sources. TBH I'd never have bothered to try this chip if a mate hadn't asked me, it looked so cheap and easy I didn't mind giving it a go. Good luck with the green house Cheers, Leo Hi Leo Yes it's pretty surprising how different I2S devices can sound and interesting how many people hear that. especially as we know that bits are errrr bits. i have four and can easily pick them out SQ wise. maybe the converter chip, psu and board layout all play a part in the resulting SQ. the PSU sure played a big part on the Amanero that we've been working on that's for sure. I have a M2Tec Hiface MK1 that I'd like to try to get I2S from at some point but I've read how fiddly that can be so no rush on that. i was meaning to ask you to ask you what you have I2S wise? i have a few boards knocking around if you'd like to try one. you know where i am. yes the idea of trying a DAC that costs a little under £10 to make was a no brainer for me and the possibility that it may sound OK is just a bonus. I'm not expecting stellar performance but the experience with prototyping work and learning a little more of the language will be invaluable for me. I did order in two 5102 chips so if the first one lets out the magic smoke I'll try again. otherwise I'd be more than happy to let that go to a good home if anyone is interested. I'm one of those guys that learn by doing and reading as i go. so this is a nice opportunity to expand my knowledge a little. i remember how it was for us SMD greenhorns when we started building Will's PK DAC. Well we've come a long way from that place. take care
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 15:51:52 GMT
How I wished you were interested in DSD. I had this idea of building a cheap DAC using the TI DSD1793 IC (5€ at Mouser) and the Amanero as source and micro controller. There are plenty of cheap DACs for PCM but none for DSD.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 16:51:09 GMT
How I wished you were interested in DSD. I had this idea of building a cheap DAC using the TI DSD1793 IC (5€ at Mouser) and the Amanero as source and micro controller. There are plenty of cheap DACs for PCM but none for DSD. "Build it and they shall come" ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 18:02:12 GMT
Unfortunatley I don't have any of the skills needed for it, if I did I'd have built one as soon as the Amanero's I2C tools and firmware were released.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 18:04:20 GMT
How I wished you were interested in DSD. I had this idea of building a cheap DAC using the TI DSD1793 IC (5€ at Mouser) and the Amanero as source and micro controller. There are plenty of cheap DACs for PCM but none for DSD. Hi Javier I'm most interested in DSD and just working my way up to it. you could have a snoop on the net and find some DIY version of the TI DSD1793 IC and post any interesting results here. ''Skills they shall come" anyhow Leo's Marmite DAC built and ready for testing tomorrow let's hope it does not become Marmite on toast. for me it's been an exercise in prototyping and a refresher in SMD chip work so all useful stuff. I'll post a progress report tomorrow working or no take care
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