pagan
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Post by pagan on Oct 22, 2012 1:11:06 GMT
Alex It just shows don't it. You posted while i was just finishing writing(spell checking) my post.. Still undecided whether I keep them or not. For what they're missing at the top,,,, they do everything else very well. Allan The electrostatics are a pain for amps
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 1:36:02 GMT
Hi Allan Yes, I agree with that, but I couldn't live with that rolled off top end. Perhaps a little digital EQ, but that is likely to cause a little degradation to ultimate SQ and rule out use of cPlay etc. Regards Alex
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Oct 22, 2012 10:06:06 GMT
Interesting, unless they have changed the design my HE500 are not lacking in the top end. Even when compared with Stax Lambda Pro. So no idea what is going on with you newer pairs, mine being over a year old.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 10:11:03 GMT
Personally, i can not see how these HP`s can possibly be perceived as sounding bright, compared to the Senn HD800`s and to a lesser extent the Grado PS1000`s, they are to my ears, positively dull in the top end department. Just shows how much our ears differ from each other regarding SQ. Mick. Hi Mick I heard Allan Pagan's pair twice on the weekend. Yesterday I drove them from my Class A HA/preamp using an output resistance of approx. 18 ohms. They were very nice indeed, BUT they sure don't sparkle at the top end. The area aound 12kHZ is what gives Stax that seductive sound with female voices, but these drop dramatically at 10KHZ, and even before that are a little down. If they fixed up that area a bit they would sound great, not just very good.That sudden drop from 10KHZ is evident in the graph. Both Allan and myself were in agreement here.They fell flat in the 01:00 to 01:04 section of "Yello-Bostich (Reflected) which should sound quite 3D sounding, for an example. Any perceived brightness issues with the HiFiMAN 500 are highly unlikely to be due to the headphones themselves. The low capacitance silver cable and the interaction with the amplifier used perhaps ? Kind Regards Alex Hi Alex, Interesting. Do you by any chance have a graph of the HE6`s, i chose these over the 500`s, as to my ear, they gave the added bonus of a brighter top end and a more defined bass, but still retaining the excellent mid-range of the 500`s. The mid-range of the HiFiMAN`s range of ortho`s is the best i have heard, apart from the Audeze LCD`3`s which i thought were slightly better all round, only down point being the cost. The laws of diminishing returns certainly came into play on the Audeze from my point of view. ATB. Mick.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 10:33:01 GMT
Interesting, unless they have changed the design my HE500 are not lacking in the top end. Even when compared with Stax Lambda Pro. So no idea what is going on with you newer pairs, mine being over a year old. Miguel With iTunes, flac, and some amplifiers, you may not realise that something is missing! In the attached composite graph, you will see the the HiFiMan although damn near perfect (!) up to 1kHz, droops around 5dB or so until around 8kHz. In Telecommunications for maximum intelligibilty of the human voice, the area from around 300HZ to 2,800 or 3,000HZ should be as flat as possible, The exception is with some loudspeakers where a small decrease around 2KHZ as with our speakers is of benefit. One of the reasons why some Stax models sound so good with female voices, is the small peak in response around 12KHZ, The HiFiMans nose dive very abruptly at 10KHZ ! You will notice that the AT W1000 although not as smooth in their response, are nowhere near as abrupt in dropping to 15kHz, and do not drop rapidly from 1kHz. Nevertheless, IMO, if they reduced some of that premature mid to HF droop, they wouldn't be just good headphones, but great headphones. I understand they also claim a response to 50KHZ! Í would love to see the dB specifications for those claims. Regards Alex Attachments:
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Oct 22, 2012 12:31:22 GMT
Alex "digital EQ" blasphemy I might as well upsample, re-sample, down-sample a MP3 I prefer to hear what the muso does, his idea on his sound, good bad indifferent. Miguel The Stax or ESP950's arn't perfect. The detail that can be resolved on electrostatics is what I thought the ortho's could do, maybe I need to listen to the HE6's to see if they are there. How much did your HE500's break in over time, did hey improve in high frequency resolution over time? I like the HE-500, decent solid build, comfortable, maybe a big heavy but didn't seem a problem to me. The thin silver cable was a pain, twist's itself in knots, too stiff. On listening to some known tracks, the singer couldn't really sparkle, seemed to loose some emotion in the voice. The sound was there but maybe the higher harmonics weren't. This was over this weekend, and tried a variety of amps. Allan
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 13:01:56 GMT
Interesting, unless they have changed the design my HE500 are not lacking in the top end. <clip> So no idea what is going on with you newer pairs, mine being over a year old. Hi, Miguel I concur. To my ears, my brand new HE-500 are anything but rolled-off at the higher frequency range. If anything, the stock silver cable contributed to their slightly peaky top end. This is why I recabled them with the Cardas 4x24 AWG Cable. I do not want to start any arguments here -- my opinions are based strictly on my subjective hearing perception. I am extremely pleased with my new HE-500 the way they are now. To my ears they sound fantastic, and I intend to keep them! As I have said before, while there are similarities among us all, there is a multitude of differences, and what is good for the goose may not be good for the gander. Best Regards! Israel Sent from my iPad
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 20:41:24 GMT
Hi Israel and Miguel We also need to take into account here, that the gear that Allan and myself were using for listening was way above normal in resolution, channel separation etc. We weren't simply listening through a sound card ,or using iTunes and lossless files, but using very high quality ripped .wav files saved to USB memory ,AND played from System memory, NOT a spinning HDD , using cPlay and via a couple of highly revealing DACs and very high quality,low noise amplification, that also included the preamp from a Marantz preamp and power amplifier combination costing $14K retail. So it's not just differences in individual hearing, as I feel sure that both of you would have come to the same conclusions as Allan and myself if you were listening through the gear we were using. Kind Regards Alex
P.S. We were also able to compare their performance with what we heard using the same source material, through the expensive Marantz gear and the Infinity speakers with Raal tweeters. Miguel Does iTunes play directly from System Memory?
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Oct 22, 2012 22:13:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 22:22:55 GMT
The 1st amp/dac combo I use retails for $9,600 the 2nd amp/dac combo I use retails for $8,500 so I would say the gear I am using is of at least mid to upper mid range. Cheers. Miguel You didn't say what you played the tracks with, whether the files were lossless or non compressed AIFF, or whether you played them using iTunes. Does iTunes, assuming you are using that, play from System memory which permits an improved S/N ratio? I presume you are using valve amplification as well ? Alex P.S. The frequency response graphs paint a different picture to what you are reporting.They are around 5dB down from a smidgin past 1kHZ to around 8kHZ for starters.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 5:16:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 6:25:56 GMT
What I find interesting about many of these reports in other forums, is that rarely are details given about the source material, whether high res, flac, or wav, whether analogue out from a soundcard, or via a high quality DAC, or even the playback software used, and whether play is from system memory using Asio. Where does anybody even give the output impedance of the amplifier used to drive them ? An amplifier such as Frans C.H.Amp would be ideal here, as the output impedance is user selectable. It makes a world of difference! They are VERY bass heavy when driven from a 120 ohm source impedance. Allan and myself also tried them from an expensive Marantz preamp, which I would have to assume was driving them from a relatively low source impedance, a 120 ohm source impedance,k and an 18 ohm source impedance from my Class A HA which is more than capable of driving them, due to 100mA current available in Class A and from + and - 20V supply rails.At 18 ohms source impedance they sounded very nice indeed, but a little too easy going. They were clearly lacking in HF extension as the graph shows,and as evident from comparing the same material through the Infinity speakers with 100kHz Raal tweeters. They were very clean sounding though. Mick also reported a lack of HF extension as well. As others have reported elsewhere, they are very fussy about the amplification used with them, and they were markedly less sensitive than my AT W1000 headphones, as we had to turn the attenuator up several notches further.Unless others who test them make it clear what exactly they were using to drive them,the source material, and the source impedance of the driving amplifier, as far as I am concerned their reports don't mean too much to me. Alex
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Oct 23, 2012 9:42:49 GMT
Apple lossless in an iMac or CD's using a Meridian 506.20 player.
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Oct 23, 2012 10:30:39 GMT
Might be just down to horses for course, so to speak.
Everyone has there own preference for sound and what they listen for.
As I've noticed with some reviewers, you see the type of equipment similarities that they prefer in their reviews. You can get a general idea of their preference.
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Post by colinb on Oct 23, 2012 13:21:19 GMT
Hi Guys, Just a quick update on how I am getting on with my He500s. They still seem a slightly bit bright to me (tested with different amps and sources) compared to the other headphones I have. My HE500 is a very early one that is very well run in. Perhaps they’ve tweaked them and the latest ones sound a little different. Having said that its no brighter than a new driver type HD600, and is less bright than a lot of my HD250IIs.
The sub bass is really super on these headphones. There is superb depth, - something the similarly toned HD600 completely lacks. It’s on a par with the LCD2s and quite a lot better than the particular Stax O2 Mk1 system I currently have.
The transient speed and micro detail on these headphones is very good. I've not heard another orthodynamic like that (and I’ve heard quite a few, including many vintage ones (which require more damping). The transients and fine detail get close to electrostatics in my opinion, but with a very musical sound. The LCD2s have good transients and fine detail and but it seems to be quite “masked” or artificial sounding in comparison.
I do notice that at times the sound is perhaps very slightly over musical, or over euphonic sounding, but I prefer that so much more than the more clinical/analytical presentation of the LCD2s. This is a very minor complaint though.
They have a very “realistic” sound, that give the illusion of transporting you to the recording location if you close your eyes. I love that. Though the HD600 has a pretty similar tone/FR to my ears, they give virtually none of the realism I get with the HE500s. The audible distortion is way less on the HE500, and I'm sure that's part of what gives it a much more realistic sound.
So at the moment for me the HE500s are in and the LCD2s are out. I just sold the LCD2s in fact, - I can’t hack the clinical/unforgiving sound or the way the midrange is a bit hard to my ears (I think Franz explained why this was from the FR graph, - in terms of the way the bass matches up relatively with the midrange).
BTW Mick I agree the HD800 is a lot brighter, as are most Grados with their U shaped Frequency Response (apart from the rare HP1000 series phones)
Cheers, Colin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 14:23:00 GMT
Hi, Colin Thanks for your very informative update on your HE-500! As I had said before, while there are differences among us all, your hearing FR curve and mine seem to have some similarities. As you, my ultimate goal in HP shopping is, first and foremost, MUSICALITY! FR response charts, etc., while important, are secondary, and I refer to them only after having come to subjective conclusions about an HP pair's attributes! I am glad to hear that you are pleased with the HE500. Going further into the burning-in period, mine now sound very satisfying, played through Frans' designed Horizon amp with my new Cardas cable. For me, being a trained professional classical musician, realistic musical reproduction is the ultimate goal, and getting sidetracked with more and more charts and measurement, while of value, is a waste of my time on earth! I defer this to the electronic geniuses, one of which we at RG, have, unfortunately, and very regrettably, lost recently! Cheers! Israel Sent from my iPad
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Post by colinb on Oct 23, 2012 22:17:12 GMT
Hi Israel, Yep, FR graphs only tell a small part of the story, but for me it can sometimes be a useful tool. I never was keen on the way the HD800 graph looked peaky in the treble. When I tried that headphone I could certainly hear it and its sounds horrible to my ears. I suppose for me that linear/even type FR and musicality are high up on the list of what I'm looking for in a headphone. Having said that, - the LCD2 and LCD3 graphs look virtually identical. I would not buy the LCD3 as the price is too high for me, but I would hope its more musical sounding than the LCD2, which sounds very analytical and bit "grey" to my ears. I am loving the HE500, - it produces proper music and is a really great all rounder in so many departments. Cheers, Colin Hi, Colin Thanks for your very informative update on your HE-500! As I had said before, while there are differences among us all, your hearing FR curve and mine seem to have some similarities. As you, my ultimate goal in HP shopping is, first and foremost, MUSICALITY! FR response charts, etc., while important, are secondary, and I refer to them only after having come to subjective conclusions about an HP pair's attributes! I am glad to hear that you are pleased with the HE500. Going further into the burning-in period, mine now sound very satisfying, played through Frans' designed Horizon amp with my new Cardas cable. For me, being a trained professional classical musician, realistic musical reproduction is the ultimate goal, and getting sidetracked with more and more charts and measurement, while of value, is a waste of my time on earth! I defer this to the electronic geniuses, one of which we at RG, have, unfortunately, and very regrettably, lost recently! Cheers! Israel Sent from my iPad
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 1:46:11 GMT
Hi Israel, Yep, FR graphs only tell a small part of the story, but for me it can sometimes be a useful tool. I never was keen on the way the HD800 graph looked peaky in the treble. When I tried that headphone I could certainly hear it and its sounds horrible to my ears. I suppose for me that linear/even type FR and musicality are high up on the list of what I'm looking for in a headphone. Having said that, - the LCD2 and LCD3 graphs look virtually identical. I would not buy the LCD3 as the price is too high for me, but I would hope its more musical sounding than the LCD2, which sounds very analytical and bit "grey" to my ears. I am loving the HE500, - it produces proper music and is a really great all rounder in so many departments. Cheers, Colin Hi, Colin I want to make sure that I don't come across as "anti-chartist" or "anti-technologist"! Charts are very important to the people who make headphones -- perhaps to some, just as important as empirical testing. I however, am not one of them! I am a musician who, like many of us, is in pursuit of the best possible subjectively satisfying Hi Fi gear. I am in full appreciation of the tremendous advances in sound reproduction in the 21st Century. Without the electronic genius of a few great minds with their charts and sophisticated testing devices, us consumers (including many pros in the music profession, who pay premium prices for highly touted high end gear), wouldn't have access to headphones such as the HE-500, as well as the LCD2, LCD3, and others. Also, just for the record: IMHO, the price paid for HiFi gear rarely has anything to do with SQ! Often the returns are diminishing to the point where much of the money spent pays for overhead, and very little for realistic sound reproduction. The true HiFi gear that deservedly commands a premium price is the exception rather than the rule. In my lifetime I have seen and heard extremely expensive HiFi gear belonging to millionaire friends, which, because of lack of discriminating taste, and faulty hearing abilities to the actual SQ, and NOT to the inflated floor walker's sales pitch ;D , in the end sounded mediocre. To these people, $500,000 to $1,000,000 is pocket change, and is living proof to me that money not always buys the best! Recognition and appreciation of quality, and a discriminating pair of good ears should come first, and if one can afford to pay the price for well deserving high end gear, then EUREKA!!! Cheers! Sent from my iPad
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 2:07:12 GMT
Hi Israel I was going to let it go, because I didn't want to get offside with you, but I am NOT a chartist. I was simply using this chart to highlight what both Allan and myself noticed with far better than average rips and equipment than most. Yes, we were being picky, but $720 is a lot of money for your average DIY person to spend on a pair of headphones. Neither will I disagree with anything you say about replacing silver content cable with pure oxygen free copper cables.I don't feel the need to use silver to try and squeeze a little more from components. I would hope that you are one day able to listen to your recordings through a good DAC , not just a soundcard's analogue output ,if that is what you were using.If you are using Windows on your computer there is also the ability to use Asio based software which markedly improves S/N ratio and allows low level detail and ambience to be further above system noise.Although your are a classical person, you may be aware of Dire Straits "Love Over Gold" album from before the Loudness Wars ? The beginning of the title track has some very low level 3D sounding material which really comes into it's own when you are able to bypass the Windows Mixer and play from System memory. i will now leave you guys alone in this thread, as I certainly do not wish to upset anybody. Kind Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 3:11:34 GMT
Hi Israel I was going to let it go, because I didn't want to get offside with you, but I am NOT a chartist. I was simply using this chart to highlight what both Allan and myself noticed with far better than average rips and equipment than most. Yes, we were being picky, but $720 is a lot of money for your average DIY person to spend on a pair of headphones. Neither will I disagree with anything you say about replacing silver content cable with pure oxygen free copper cables.I don't feel the need to use silver to try and squeeze a little more from components. I would hope that you are one day able to listen to your recordings through a good DAC , not just a soundcard's analogue output ,if that is what you were using.If you are using Windows on your computer there is also the ability to use Asio based software which markedly improves S/N ratio and allows low level detail and ambience to be further above system noise.Although your are a classical person, you may be aware of Dire Straits "Love Over Gold" album from before the Loudness Wars ? The beginning of the title track has some very low level 3D sounding material which really comes into it's own when you are able to bypass the Windows Mixer and play from System memory. i will now leave you guys alone in this thread, as I certainly do not wish to upset anybody. Kind Regards Alex Hi, Alex Thank you for the clarification. And, No! I didn't intend to label you as chartist. It is just that I tend to rely on what I hear more than what the charts indicate. I also appreciate your suggestions a while ago about downloading some high resolution classical music files. I did look up some catalogs online, but the content, unfortunately not always was promising to be of high caliber performance-wise - a priority for me. As a serious musician, with all humility, for example, I would much rather listen to an old Low Fi Mono recording of a truly great performance of Mahler's Ninth Symphony, as conducted by Bruno Walter in the late thirties, than a super-detailed version of a mediocre performance! While fidelity is very important to me as well, and I am in hot pursuit of it, to me, it is of secondary value, because musical content is my prime objective! There are, however, some promising music files in the download catalogs such as Carlos Kleiber's recording of Brahms 4th Symphony with the Vienna Philharmonic, which I have in CD format, and think very highly of, but at the site I looked at, it was not available at a high sampling rate. I will, however try to find the right combination of both attributes, and any suggestions from you will be most welcome! Thanks again! Cheers! Sent from my iPad
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 3:17:05 GMT
Hi Israel How about one of Rabbit's favourites, the LPO recording of Resurrection in 16/44.1 ? I ripped that for Ian and can UL it if you want to check it out. Kind Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 3:49:37 GMT
Hi Israel How about one of Rabbit's favourites, the LPO recording of Resurrection in 16/44.1 ? I ripped that for Ian and can UL it if you want to check it out. Kind Regards Alex Hi, Alex Is it the LSO recording of Mahler's No. 2 Symphony, "Resurrection" with Solti conducting, or an LPO recording? I own the Solti recording in CD format, and I like it very much! Solti, who passed away a few years ago was one of the great conductors under whose baton I was fortunate enough to play as Principal Flute! One of the highlights of my pro career, which I will never forget! He made me work harder than any other conductor ever had, and I recall loving every second of it! Being touched by genius to me is a true blessing! Either way, I would welcome a chance to hear your version. I do recall reading a post by Ian about the opening bars with the dramatic Double Basses slam! I am not sure, however, if it is the LSO one. Thanks for your kind offer! Israel Sent from my iPad
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 4:04:34 GMT
Hi Israel It is the LPO with Klaus Tennstedt -Conductor Yvonne Kenny-Soprano, and Jard Van Ness-mezzo soprano. I will do a fresh rip and UL it in the next couple of days. Presently I am feeling lousy due to some kind of flu like virus. Kind Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 4:47:36 GMT
There is no rush! I have been battling a bad virus for the last four weeks as well, and I know what it is like! Fortunately, it hasn't affected my hearing! Just the rest of my body!
Feel better soon!
Israel
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 5:13:29 GMT
Hi Israel They are now ripped and ready to send as Uncompressed Zips. My UL speed is fairly slow , so I will try with CD1, and if too slow, try again in the morning our time. Kind Regards Alex
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