XTRProf
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Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 17, 2012 4:13:06 GMT
Have been wanting to ask this for a long long time. Both can do Windows and Linux, right, except Apple OS. So shoot ...............
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jul 17, 2012 12:49:52 GMT
This thread may upset the Fanboy clubs on either side.
but my view is. Depends on what you need it for. Intel is the fastest, but also the most expensive. AMD are slightly slower but cheaper.
There's more to just the cpu, depending what the application is, and that can be more relevant to the chipsets available to either. not to mention add in cards.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 17, 2012 15:29:24 GMT
This thread may upset the Fanboy clubs on either side. but my view is. Depends on what you need it for. Intel is the fastest, but also the most expensive. AMD are slightly slower but cheaper. There's more to just the cpu, depending what the application is, and that can be more relevant to the chipsets available to either. not to mention add in cards. My opinion is identical to that of pagan. A couple of years ago, when intel was selling it's crappy Pentium 4 series, AMD even had the overall advantage both in speed and energy efficiency. Today, intel is the clear leader in absolute processing power and energy efficiency. But you pay more. AMD is the de facto leader for cheap processors with integrated graphics. AMD's APU series was very successful. Almost all CPU, which I currently have, are from intel though. Why? Simply because intel had the better offers for what I'm doing with these computers. I REALLY appreciate AMD and I think competition is a very good thing. Especially if only two major competitors are left. intel has used a lot of dirty tricks in the past to keep AMD small. AMD is a much smaller company with much less money but is still able to compete with intel in some areas. I guess, it's appropriate to say that AMD makes a very good job. I'm still jobless, but because I have a lot of parts around, I'll build another computer in the next few months. Most likely it will be an AMD Trinity APU based system. This would be cheap (it should be possible for me to afford it even now) and makes it possible for me to use the parts which are lying around. I have already a case, a PSU, fans and other parts here which are waiting to be used. If you want the best performance regardless of the price, then you should take intel at the moment. If you want the most energy efficient systems, then intel is also the better choice in most situations. But AMD has still some advantages: Their "Bulldozer" architectue isn't exactly good for typical desktop applications, but it performs better with some server tasks. Their Opteron CPU's with Bulldozer architecture are selling rather good. AMD's APUs are very interesting since they provide low- to midrange processing power with good integrated graphics. intel is still not able to provide integrated graphics which could compete with AMD. The most interesting thing is the price though: AMD is often slightly cheaper for the same amout of processing power. On the other hand, your electricity bill we a bit higher with AMD. BTW: Apple was thinking of using AMD APU processors from the "Llano" generation for it's MacBook Air series. The main reason why Apple didn't do that: AMD was not able to sell them the APUs in the needed quantities. Sometimes, live is really hard.
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XTRProf
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Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 17, 2012 15:51:52 GMT
So overall Intel is the clear winner nowadays but AMD is not so far behind as well. One day, I will also build up an AMD DT based system to try as well for another room AV and gaming system as I already have 2 Intel based PC. Btw, can an old 250W PSU still be enough to power an Intel or AMD based system? Or I should change to at least a 500 Watter? I still have an old spoilt Pentium 3 DT lying around. It's time to dismantle it and get it ready for new things to come when I'm earning again.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 17, 2012 15:54:17 GMT
Then is an AMD based system still good enough for mainly an AV with gaming capability? What series are there in the current AMD range and for what end (Low, Mid and High End)?
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 17, 2012 16:55:46 GMT
It is really very depending on how much you are willing to spend and what you are doing with it. So I can't give you a universal answer. Since you already have computer which have a processing power above most AMD APU processors, I guess intel would suit you better. But if you only want another PC which doesn't have to be a speed champ, the upcoming AMD Trinity APU's could be a nice option. I have only the intention to build another PC since I have already most of the needed parts here. I need only a new motherboard, a CPU and some memory. That's the reason why I can afford it. I'm almost sure, I'll take an AMD Trinity (desktop) APU for this project. This PC won't have a lot of power, but it will already come with pretty good integrated graphics. For low-cost PC's, I'd suggest to wait a few months. AMD is releasing the desktop variant of it's Trinity APU generation somewhen in the 3rd or 4th quartal. Most sources say in October. Some OEM (like the German ALDI supermarket) even sell pre-built systems with such APUs, but their are not available for retail sale so far. Intel will be releasing it's Core i3-3xxx CPU somewhen in the next months. So far they have released only the CPU's of the Core i7-3xxx and i5-3xxx series. For cheap PC's, I guess the race will be between the Trinity APU's and the i3-3xxx CPU's. I wouldn't recommend to buy the currently sold "Llano" APU's unless you get them extremely cheap. Your 250W PSU should be fine for most Trinity APU's if you look alone on the wattage. But some older PSU's just don't have the needed connectors. You have to check with the manual of the mainboard you want to choose for compatibility. Don't expect to use this PSU at all if you have plans for an additional graphics card, a lot of additional components or overclocking with an AMD K-series CPU. If your 250W PSU is in ATX form factor, I guess it must be quite old since most PSU's sold in the last few years are at least 300W. If you want more than a guess, please post a picture of the PSU and the label on it. Perhaps also of the cable tree with the connectors. When that old PSU was used a lot over years, I'd suggest to go for a new one anyway. The electronlytics in PSU's are also subject to ageing. There's not much verified information around about the Trinity APU and the i3-3xxx series. I can't say exactly how the situation will look in a few months. Gaming performance of a Trinity APU will always be a bit limited since the processing power isn't up to par with intel's high-end CPUs. But built-in graphics are not bad and you can always go for an additional graphics card with more power. For the i3's, you need always an additional graphics card. Built-in intel graphics are too slow for decent gaming. If you want a really powerful system, the answer is simple: Go for an intel i5-2500K, i5-3570K, i7-2700K or i7-3770K CPU. These babies are real powerhouses. The Core i-2x00K series is better for overclocking and runs a bit cooler (hence better overclocking capabilites), while the Core i-3xx0K series has the better stock speed and uses less electricity under load. In idle mode, all intel CPU's behave very well regarding power efficiency. If you go for something like that, your 250W PSU is of NO use. Remember also that these intel babies need an additional graphics card with a lot of horsepower to show what they really can. I wouldn't buy/build such a system with less than 16GB RAM. The RAM is almost ridiculously cheap if you compare the cost with the other components. Since we both don't have a job at the moment, a CPU of the upcoming i3-3xxx series or a Trinity APU will probably be the best thing to buy. This way, we'll get fair performance for a good price (overall a very good value). The i3-3xxx will probably have the edge in CPU power, while the integrated graphics of the AMD APU's will be superior. Perhaps Alex is also joining us somewhen. But I guess, he'll be looking for a decent powerful new PC as replacement of his old PC. Just seen from the available processing power, it's easy to outperform his current system even with an entry level i3-CPU, but you have to remind his current system is already a couple of years old. For a pensioner, it's always hard to afford new gear. BTW: It's still a good idea to search a couple of computer mates in Singapore. This way, you could very likely compare a few systems and hear other opinions. In the end, it's only you that can decide what's right for your needs. I can only give suggestions. To be honest, everyone has it's preferences and demands differ often. What is fast enough for one person, isn't fast enough for the next person (even when playing the same game). This is a good address for reviews: www.anandtech.com/You won't find everything reviewed there, but they make really good reviews. Mostly, I agree fully with them, but sometimes my personal preferences differ somewhat.
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Jul 17, 2012 18:27:32 GMT
Pretty well all of the PCs in my house (which has now got to 10 or more) are 5 years old or so. I therefore have nothing new to add to this old argument. Intel were always seen as the benchmark and AMD the new upstart which used price to compete. I think that has changed alot. I agree entirely with the fact that its what you use the PC for that may make one or other better (a close mate does 3D and always buys Intel) though for the majority its irrelevant - I've just picked an IBM X60 laptop for £37 and whilst it will need a bit of memory (say £15) it will be just as good at travelling to London as a brand new machine !!. Probably better due to the composite case.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 17, 2012 18:51:29 GMT
These Lenovo/IBM ThinkPads really do last long, don't they? Is the battery still OK in yours or had you to buy a replacement? I've purchased a ThinkPad X121e early this year. Main reason was the quality and that parts are available at least five years. I had not too much money to spend and I wanted a small and really mobile notebook. I've found it with the X121e which is something between a high-end netbook and a subnotebook. Tablet computers are not for me, I like to have a "real" computer with a good keyboard. The more advanced small ThinkPads like the X220/230 or the X1 are way too costly for me. Especially at the moment. I know quite a few people which like the ThinkPads. They are not as elegant (and maybe not as advanced) as those from Apple, but they are real workhorses. Some ThinkPad models are also known for good Linux compatibility (my X121e with i3 for example). I run it with Xubuntu 12.04 LTS. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Jul 17, 2012 22:45:31 GMT
It'll probably be knacked so another £15 !!. I've picked up the X60 as it matches a T60 I already have (£70 with 2 PSUs and a docking station !!!). The build quality is unmatched on both. Not only that but you have the best laptop keyboard ever; the new laptops simply cannot match the older IBMs and the specs of the T40s on make them more than adequate for travel. Both mine have XP licenses so I'll stick with Windows but I have downloaded 12.04 to try it on my desktop; my last install was 10.04.
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XTRProf
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Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 17, 2012 22:51:40 GMT
Wow, you guys really like former IBM Lenovo LT, eh? My niece still has one which she bought new for her uni usage about 4 years ago. I don't know why but it took a long long time to boot when compared to my HP i5. I don't have a good impression of the Lenovo because of that. What model I really don't know as I didn't bother to find out. Perhaps I will and ask here to find out more of it's value (good to keep?) now.
Elysion, I will be dismantling my old spoilt Pentium 3 today and will post a new thread on this later to see what is good to keep or change.
Freddy, you have > 10 PCs? Why need so many to know as a busy body? You doing LAN ganming?
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 18, 2012 0:13:22 GMT
It'll probably be knacked so another £15 !!. I've picked up the X60 as it matches a T60 I already have (£70 with 2 PSUs and a docking station !!!). The build quality is unmatched on both. Not only that but you have the best laptop keyboard ever; the new laptops simply cannot match the older IBMs and the specs of the T40s on make them more than adequate for travel. Both mine have XP licenses so I'll stick with Windows but I have downloaded 12.04 to try it on my desktop; my last install was 10.04. Admittedly, some of the newer Lenovo models don't match the build quality of the older models. The cheaper "IdeaPads" and the Thinkpad E-series aren't built to the same standard for which the ThinkPads have been known. But they make still very rigid notebooks. The T- and X-series for example. My X121e is a bit between the very costly high-end X-Thinkpads and the E-Thinkpads. But it's probably the cheapest notebook they had to offer which has a decent build quality. It's not carbon, titan or magnesium which was used for the case, but it's so small that this doesn't matter. It feels very robust. The change with the keyboards of some models has got a lot of bad critics, but those critics never have tried the new chiclet type keyboards. You won't find another device in the netbook or subnotebook class with an equally good keyboard. The don't use the chiclet type keyboards with all models though. Some have still the other type. BTW: If (X)Ubuntu 12.04 LTS won't work well on your ThinkPads, then go for example for 10.04 LTS or maybe a different flavour of Linux. In your case, I'd suggest to use Xubuntu or Lubuntu which use XFCE respectively LXDE desktop environment. These will run better on hardware without fast graphics. I run Xubuntu 12.04 LTS even on a ASRock ION 330 nettop. This one has an Atom 330 CPU which is overclocked to 2.0GHz, has 4GB RAM and Nvidia ION graphics. At least regarding the CPU, your ThinkPads should have more horsepower than the tiny Atom. Enough RAM is always a good idea. 2GB would be certainly sufficient to work nicely. Wow, you guys really like former IBM Lenovo LT, eh? My niece still has one which she bought new for her uni usage about 4 years ago. I don't know why but it took a long long time to boot when compared to my HP i5. I don't have a good impression of the Lenovo because of that. What model I really don't know as I didn't bother to find out. Perhaps I will and ask here to find out more of it's value (good to keep?) now. Elysion, I will be dismantling my old spoilt Pentium 3 today and will post a new thread on this later to see what is good to keep or change. Freddy, you have > 10 PCs? Why need so many to know as a busy body? You doing LAN ganming? Chong, your niece's Lenovo could simply suffer from a screwed up Windows installation. Windows is known for slow boots. Maybe it's also a limited hardware configuration (not enough RAM, a slow harddrive, or even an overall slow model). The entry level models from Lenovo aren't as good as the better ones regarding build quality. But they have to make such models, just because the other manufacturers are selling a lot of very cheap notebooks and netbooks. At least, we have have a choice when buying Lenovo. Personally, I don't like the HP notebooks. Even the better models from HP aren't really my taste.
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