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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2012 6:00:18 GMT
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mrarroyo
Been here a while! 
Our man in Miami!
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Post by mrarroyo on May 4, 2012 10:14:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2012 12:16:39 GMT
Quote "Alex Kethel from New Zealand" ;D I am sure the rest of the article is accurate though.
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Post by dalethorn on May 5, 2012 15:28:08 GMT
The article does have a few holes worth plugging. One is the "read only" server that only Naim can restore to. Bad idea. Baaaaaad idea. Your main server or whatever stores *your* files should be under *your* control, and backup software should never, ever write over top of a file that already exists on source or backup, unless the intent is deliberate on your part. And having just *one* "mirror" backup is also a bad idea. You need two, and I question the concept of mirroring, for the simple reason that my backup drives are not my mirrors, they are my archives - my permanent collection. If anything is a mirror, it's my server or other music player hardware.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2012 16:13:30 GMT
t.b.h. I found the article a bit disappointing. Firstly Alex Kethel get's mentioned but appearantly there are 2 Alex kethels one in Australia (the one we love to bits) and one from New Zealand. Unfortunately the guy from New Zealand get's mentioned as the one that had send the files through the internet. Also I don't think Alex received any credits for his efforts. Another thing is the ratings of SQ (while we all know, including me) that the rips are O.K. they are 100% SQ to me for instance. rip 1 was merely 50% SQ, rip 2 had improved to 75% and the latest rip (with JLH) was found to be 65%. (This can easily happen with subjective assements but isn't fun and part of the game I guess). Acc. to M.C. sound quality of 150% is achievable and 100% is considered standard CD quality. With this in mind I find M.C.s article even more dismissive than my ramblings as I would give 100% SQ (I don't think you can get more out of a CD than is on there). The conclusion also was a bit meagre in a technical sense and it appears Alex his files were only used as independent confirmation of what they already new. The technical explanations are not there at all and it doesn't appear as more research is done afterwards.. but perhaps in a follow up. The conclusion (don't know if I am allowed to quote from the article) is also pretty 'open' and non-conclusive but only 'reporting' what they found: It's particularly interesting to try and understand the means by which the power supply quality for a ripper's drive mechanism can be transmitted as sound quality differences in music files.
Computer people tell us: this not possible an we must be imaging it.
However, we are merely reporting what we have found.
Sadly no explanations or research as to why and where it may come from (nor is it in their interest) I secretly hoped there would be 'more' and the score of 50% to 75% is rather disappointing. I don't think Alex is done much justice by this HFC article.  Let me be clear on this... I am not bashing Alex nor his efforts it's just my opinion of the article. My viewpoints about M.C. have not changed. |
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Post by dalethorn on May 5, 2012 18:52:48 GMT
Could I have been talking to Alex's evil twin? Maybe he's like the 'Lazarus' guy in Star Trek - you only get one of them at a time, and one time it's the good guy and the other time it's the bad guy. Better keep them apart - if they meet they could cancel each other out in a huge explosion.
(just kidding, in case you didn't know)
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2012 21:27:13 GMT
Quote "Alex Kethel from New Zealand" ;D I am sure the rest of the article is accurate though. I don't have sux with ship. I prefer my lamb with mint sauce. The article was greatly weakened by the failure to include the results of the 3 minute blind A/B/A/ listening sessions, a few of which were posted in HFC Forum.But Greg ALREADY knows that all of the other members of our listening group are able to hear the differences between .wav files with identical check sums that have been featured at recent GTGs. He even admitted hearing differences at a GTG in January last year (?) between 2 24/96 tracks of "Claire Martin-Too Darn Hot". Greg doesn't accept that they have identical binary content because he hasn't yet taken me up on my offer to check them out directly from my P.C. A round trip between us is around 2 hours though, so that is a good reason why he has yet to do so. Alex That statement is incorrect. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 5, 2012 21:39:09 GMT
I'll just slip in a reply I made to something in the "staff room" section of this forum.... no reason it shouldn't be on public view... totally unrelated to this thread but I feel it may be related in a way? I hope so. My friends KNOW I sometimes speak before I think and they KNOW that when I go off on one it will only be short term and I'll bounce back the following day with my tail between my legs 
I am getting a little bit pissed of with the recent trend where people are expected to "prove" a point (even BEYOND reasonable doubt) and if the measurements don't change the sound cannot be different type of thing.... even Alex and his "rips", it's all got to be proven beyond doubt before it is accepted as true.
People being blindfolded, gagged, strapped to chairs, hooked up to oscilliscopes, men in white coats taking notes... what the f@@k does any of this have to do with enjoying music?
Of course it's good to have healthy debate but to take it into a "laboratory" setting for conclusive proof is just going a bit too far AND it takes the enjoyment out of the music too...
FFS, it's not the equipment that should be under scrutiny, it's the listener! Trillions of people out there, all with different perception, different hearing abilities, different ears (remember that the human ear is as unique as fingerprints), different states of mind, some stressed, some happy, some relaxed, some sad, some mad, some insane, some drugged, some drunk, some sober, some sombre, some depressed, some manic..... believe me (and this is FACT!) put 100,00 people in front of a live band and they will ALL have a different perception on what they saw and heard.... the "band" may have been technically perfect but the atmosphere, the vibe, the surroundings etc. will have been digested by each individual differently.
It annoys me intensly that we speak so much about the "equipment" but fail to realise that it will be listened to by trillions of ears, and each pair (being a unique acoustic shape) will hear things slightly differently.
A semi deaf person may actually get MORE out of a recording than a person with perfect hearing, much the same as a blind man can sense what's going on around him better than a fully sighted man.
A guy who is "zoned" into the vibe will get more from his transistor radio than a stressed out accountant listening to his latest "£700" 1 metre length of interconnect.
When we can accept the FACT that we are ALL individuals it will then become crystal clear that it's our "perception" of sound that matters (to us in an individual sense).... to have an "expert" tell us that changing a capacitor for a different brand / different value has no effect is actually quite insulting. That is one pair of ears telling a trillion ears that they are mistaken BUT if it sounds good to their ears then carry on... it's all in your mind but that's ok, whatever floats your boat type of thing.
It's got f@@k all to do with audio "religion", voodoo, science, fact, fiction.... it's all to do with the FACT that we are ALL very complex beings with unique auditory sensory skills, the human mind (fortunately) is not as clinical as a computer... it has emotions, it has passion, it has love, it has feelings..... to try and match up a piece of equipment to all these individual, living, being, breathing, walking, seeing, hearing emotional roller coasters is IMPOSSIBLE and I'm sure 99.9% of people would agree that they are unique?
There is nothing more "unique" than emotions, and music stirs the emotions AND the senses..... think of an old tune you liked back in the day, you can even smell and taste that time in place.... it's unique to you..... Can you remember what you were doing in 1983 from looking at a capacitor? erm.... nope!
Rick was so loved here (by me anyways) because he knew that we weren't all the same... we are all unique.... similarly he, like me, managed to pick up that not all capacitors "sound" the same... different brands, different chemical compositions equate to different "house" sounds.... could be that the two of us were two in a trillion (I am not discounting that) and we could both notice quite substantial tonal signature changes between different breeds of capacitor (and resistors).... Rick would ALWAYS back up any of his personal preferences with a "your mileage may vary", "use your own ears" type thing.....
What is pissing me off at the moment is not you Frans, it's the way this forum is veering off toward annoying people all trying to PROVE that they are correct.... NOBODY is correct, we are all little piss ants in the scheme of things, quasi "molecules" in the arsehole of the universe..... inconsequential, carbon footprint taxed arseholes who only have one true qualification in life and that is guaranteed death.
I am not a subjective / objective listener..... I enjoy music. Some days it sounds like crap, other times it takes me to a new level of being.... all depends on what mood I am in.... it's got f@@k all to do with anything OTHER than my ability to receive and zone in.....
If props like Peter Belt's rainbow foil, incense sticks, LSD, Magic mushrooms, ambient lighting, booze, snorting coke out of a hooker's belly button, a dusting of shake and vac on the carpet, a prince albert in your bell end or a simple "cap upgrade" do it for you then YOU are NOT wrong!
You are in the ZONE.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2012 22:02:57 GMT
Mike Have you been talking to Rick ?  As you would be aware, Rick had one ear that had suffered from exposure to gun fire. That is also what Rick reported.To make things perfectly clear, I am not just defending my own findings, I am attempting to show that all of the other subjective reports, whether on headphone cables, different types of capacitors and resistors, different PSU bypassing, different types of opamps etc.should not be dismissed simply because they can't be measured using typical measurement techniques. In other words, I am attempting to keep RG the way it was when I first became a member. This forum has it's roots in subjective improvements, and Mike has a helluva lot of very happy customers to back up this up. Alex P.S I will be offline for several hours due to family commitments. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2012 22:15:04 GMT
This also brings us back to another factor. When you've been on this forum for a while you get a feeling for who hears things or has certain prioroties in a similar way to you, as has been pointed out before. The opposite is also true, I know if a particular member says something is great, chances are I won't be so keen. Ultimately everything is try-it-yourself but a short list out of so many possibilities is a great help.  |
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 5, 2012 22:22:15 GMT
Me too  I've been away for a long time (as far as the forum goes) but I'm back and will make sure we return to the basics which (IIRC) were "maximum bang for your buck" and giving good advice on how to achieve that..... You have been so consistent Alex, you really are a valued (and loved) rock in this Grotto.... you have helped shape this place so if you feel it needs pruned (in any dept.) then get your shears out mate  No need to ask..... just do it, you are in charge of the joint  Thanks Alex, I'd love to fly over to OZ and take you out for dinner but am worried that you'll be too busy on the computer to have time for "me" |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2012 22:28:33 GMT
Hi Mike
Never too busy to spend time with a fellow RG member.
I have already met another RG member , and he took my prototype SC HA back with him to the U.K.
I have also shared a couple of most enjoyable afternoon meals with Jon Clancy and Greg when Jon flew his big bird into Sydney.
Kind Regards
Alex
P.;S.
My initial post , with pictures posted by Mike. were about subjective improvements to the Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3.
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 5, 2012 22:36:44 GMT
Spill the beans! I'll still love you if you say it's me Your sausages taste great! The latest sausage drop wasn't the best though, the last shipment was the best (the local butcher).... the latest sausages were pretty "chewy" and decidedly sour to the taste..... not a patch on the last sausage. I even fried them (till crispy) but they weren't a patch on the butcher's sausage.... Going to send you a haggis and black pudding over. Mike. |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2012 0:05:12 GMT
Hi Alex, I don't really didn't want to be drawn into this conversation again, but you have said a few things publicly I need to clear up. But Greg ALREADY knows that all of the other members of our listening group are able to hear the differences between .wav files with identical check sums that have been featured at recent GTGs. I am not quite sure, but from recent conversations, I think you claim to be able to hear a difference. I have talked to Geoff and he backs up some of your beliefs. I have no idea what conclusion Dave has come to as I haven't discussed it with him. I firmly believe 100% that bit identical files can not sound different, full stop, end of story, YMMV. This is my belief but I don't want to change anyone else's opinion. We all form our theories based on our education and experiences, that is why it is completely reasonable for people to have opposing opinions. He even admitted hearing differences at a GTG in January last year (?) between 2 24/96 tracks of "Claire Martin-Too Darn Hot". At our last GTG I was only interested in comparing DACs. I have no idea where the source material came from as I was not interested. I have no recollection on doing any tests comparing bit idenetical files, YMMV. I do remember saying to you that I thought Dave's system was sounds as good as I have ever heard it. See how 2 people sitting side by side in the same room can have completely different recollections of the same reality. Greg doesn't accept that they have identical binary content because he hasn't yet taken me up on my offer to check them out directly from my P.C. The reason why is, it is impossible for bit identical files to sound different, IMHO, YMMV. I have done tests myself and confirmed this to my satisfaction, YMMV. I don't need to be converted to the other side. I get a lot of enjoyment from listening to music, so I try not to post very often spoiling it for others with opposing views. I agree with Mike on this topic (if I am interpreting his posts correctly). A round trip between us is around 2 hours though, so that is a good reason why he has yet to do so. The trip is not the problem.... but I do have a problem sitting in another man's bedroom listening to music, call me old fashioned. regards Greg |
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XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
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Post by XTRProf on May 6, 2012 5:43:39 GMT
Wow, I didn't know Alex had migrated to New Zealand to escape. I'm not for or against Subjectiveness or Objectiveness as I'm ZenTech, more Zen than Tech. There is every true in some ways of Subjectiveness and Objectiveness. But only up to a point. Anything that is not clear to my mind will revert automatically to Subjectiveness as I wanted the reproduction to be close to Live. Shouldn't we and rightly so? I really do wish it's as simple as 1+1=2 but until this point that has not happened yet although close. Btw, do we realise what Martin Collom has for his reference system? Check again here: I always respect what the Wilson can do as I had heard many demos in Hifi shows showing the differences very clearly between cables, equipment, etc. It's just that revealing. In fact, all who attended the demos showed the same stance and descriptions of the changed sounds, be it more accurate or vice versa, as me and so I'm not in hallucination. There were definitely changes heard. Btw, I'm moding the V2 and the changed from 3.3pf ceramic to 10 pf polystyrene presented the MOST BIGGEST change to the sound closer to Live. Yeah, change and not necessary more accurate as in specs and I like it very much although there seemed to be a reduction in the depth but defintely not in width. Yeah, very hearable and not a wake up blur blur position. This is what voicing an equipment by objective Hifi engineers is all about. However, I worry too about the bandwidth and oscillation as Frans had good heartedly pointed me to. So I will conduct an objective check on this when my more Objective measurement setup is fully geared and running. Yup, that's where I will be going in 2012. So it's still all about not going over the limit in both directions, the Subjectiveness vs the Objectivness. Yeah, ZenTech! Beyond that is just proving to your ego devilish religion you are in!  |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2012 5:50:55 GMT
If you think it sounds good - IT IS
If you think it sounds bad - IT IS
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Post by dalethorn on May 6, 2012 7:13:04 GMT
"I firmly believe 100% that bit identical files can not sound different, full stop, end of story, YMMV."
This is what I have always believed, until recently. With 37 years of programming experience from the bit level on up, I don't think you can get anything in digital data past me. But the identical files I received (which were in fact identical) were identical on my system in two (all?) important ways. The bytes were exactly the same, and since my computer wrote both files to the same harddisk on my computer in the same session, any other factor associated with the files' contents would also be the same.
But then I considered the other person's system. Assuming (perhaps wrongly) that both files existed on the same harddisk and neither was radically different in cluster allocation than the other, then they should sound the same. Then I began to think of other factors - things that we would not consider to be relevant factors, but player software just might, if we don't know everything the software does from the source code level. I can't begin to tell you how many programs I've debugged, my own and other programmers' too, where I found a failure point and realized "this can't possibly be a failure point because....", and yet there it was. Change a line or two of code and the problem goes away.
So I can't say for sure that two identical files (content-wise) can sound different in any given circumstance, but when even a filename difference (legal filenames) can trigger unexpected actions in some computer software, you can't rule out the possibility.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2012 8:35:24 GMT
Though it has got nothing to do with this topic and I was specifically mentioned openly I feel I have the right to respond openly as well and share my points of view with the community myself.
Does this mean you are coming back on your earlier decision ?
You only like to listen to music, some like to tinker with computers and DAC's others like to play around with tubes or only SS, power supplies, capacitors, some like to discuss what they found and how and don't want it questioned others are OPEN to opinions of others and like to se BOTH sides addressed in a friendly manner.
Some like to discuss why this is so, some like 'the magic' others like the science part.
What the f@@k does any of of this have to do with music ?
It 's got everything to do with it as you listen to electronics, computer files, headphones with different sound/properties, speakers, room acoustics and above all individual preference and TASTE !
Sorry that we all are NOT exactly similar as YOU nor think alike.
Not to some it isn't.. the biggest problem here is that laboratories tend to make all differences disappear.
Like walking in a doctors office and suddenly not feel what was bothering you.
I completely agree with everything you wrote
Oh... sorry I thought this forum was ALL bout equipment. In the early old days you did most of the reviewing and modifying.
Completely in agreement, that's the beauty of NOT having to believe in audible differences it creates a completely stress free listening zone where we do NOT worry if it could be improved by cable A or B or part Y or Z.
I can enjoy music free of reservations and hope others would be able to experience this too.
To have an 'expert' tell us something different than we value to be true true is often found insulting to those who consider themselves 'experts' as well.
Those who would like to learn from experiences (by others or 'experts') might appreciate different viewpoints and make up their own mind.
Going into a church and ONLY hearing about the God that they believe to exist may not be the best way to learn about facts of life. However, if you talk to people from that church they feel they learn everything they want and will ever need. This creates wars and single sided thinking.
Agreed, yet when looking at those pictures that seem to turn or appear to be different in reality than from perception is the same for every person eventhough one may need glasses or not and even if we have just one eye or not.
So even when everyone is unique it appears we all have certain things in common as well.
agree 100%, memory is flawed, just like auditive memory.
You mean Szoze, Greg (in some cases), Lark (who already left) and the worst of all me …. and some others that 'popped in' made a few remarks got bantered and left as well.
This forum is 99% subjective and will always be so.
There will always be people around that disagree with you or anyone else on this forum that posts their opinions or findings regardless of the way they achieved that.
Whether or not someone gets offended or even pissed off by it is... well ..personal.
I understand questioning findings and hearing is 'not done' but not allowing it, getting pissed off lately and wishing these people to disappear (prune them out, preferably done by someone else) is something else entirely to me.
If you don't want that anymore You need to set rules like 'objectivity cannot be discussed here and only subjective findings are allowed' on the opening page.
In that moment it is clear to everyone that only subjective findings are allowed and you have every right to ridicule every other opinion and I and others will know it is a church that cannot/should not be entered by other religions (the NwAvGuy religion so to speak).
I am 100% in agreement and I also enjoy music... trouble free and thus easier to home in the zone for me as well... never listening out for flaws unless I put my analysis hat on... you know the pointy hat with 'donkey' on it.
I am ALL for it, just don't take it so far it starts to affect your life in a negative way.
Exactly my opinion as well... placebo or not if it improves experience I am all for it.
Does that also imply the ways we improve perception cannot be discussed and what those improvements are or come from?... even if it annoys certain people ?
It is realy quite simple everone is different and opinions can vary as much as the individuals vary.
Deal with it !
Shutting them up/bantering or pruning them out is not the answer... a friendly debate that allows more than one vision is.
I suggest this thread is used for discussing the HFC article.
Alex didn't open the thread to turn it into another war as he clearly expressed in the opening line.
I assumed this was also true for owners, admins and been a whiles but seeing the discussion already went there I thought I'd chime in also
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2012 8:54:14 GMT
I can relate to that. Once I saw an attractive Asthma Specialist who was in her 30s. She put the usual different "dabs"on my arm and then left my arm resting on her leg while she waited to see which caused a reaction.She was sitting opposite me.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2012 9:17:08 GMT
Objectively he's in Ausrralia.
Subjectively he's in New Zealand.
He's a 'quasi' old worlder.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2012 10:36:03 GMT
Objectively he's in Ausrralia. Subjectively he's in New Zealand. He's a 'quasi' old worlder. Blimey mate, he's gone swim-about |
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Post by clausdk on May 6, 2012 17:10:44 GMT
This thread and the other ones about subjective and objective is a clear and vivid reminder why I have spent so little time here the last year or so....
I won´t take sides but it is a bit sad seeing this forum is slowly and surely killing it self...
Over .. .. well nothing but stubborness..
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Post by freddypipsqueek on May 6, 2012 20:35:38 GMT
Dale - To me if the files are the same yet sound different on playback then there must be another factor.
Speaking as a lawyer the article lacks evidence. Having said this I don't think it matters.
Alex - Presumably you had private medical insurance !!.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2012 21:22:45 GMT
Freddy As I previously stated, the article would have been more acceptable if they had included the results of the Blind A/B/A 3 minute sessions that were posted in HFC Forum. MOST people would accept the results of these sessions as being meaningful, after all, they are the kind of things invariably demanded by EEs.and other qualified people.It would be very hard to manipulate the results of 6 listening sessions with different listeners.No, it isn't absolute proof, but probably better than some of those in your field have provided on many occasions ! ;D We often read cases of people who have been wrongly incarcerated, being later released and paid large amounts of compensation.Some have even been executed and DNA evidence has later found they were not guilty. Regards Alex REMINDER. |
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Post by dalethorn on May 6, 2012 22:29:03 GMT
Dale - To me if the files are the same yet sound different on playback then there must be another factor. Speaking as a lawyer the article lacks evidence. Having said this I don't think it matters. Another factor - true. Lacks evidence - true. Matters? - Jury is still out. |
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I've been away for a long time (as far as the forum goes) but I'm back and will make sure we return to the basics which (IIRC) were "maximum bang for your buck" and giving good advice on how to achieve that.....
