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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 23:56:30 GMT
These days, with blank BluRay discs available for $3 or $4, archiving your favourite CD albums to BluRay discs as a secure back up may be an option. I have been investigating ways to obtain the best possible copies stored on BluRay that could then be extracted to a PC again, and sound either very close to the original , or the same as the original. Initially I tried just copying .wav files only from several CDs to a BD-RE , rather like just one big CD. When copied back to the same Corsair that they came from, they were clearly not as good as the original .wav files that were ripped using Safe Mode.Copying the CD folders to the BD-RE , and then back again gave a noticeable improvement. However, first saving them as an Uncompressed Zip, and then extracting the folders sounded closer to the originals.("zipcreator" Uncompressed option) I would be interested to see what other people with a BR writer and an erasable BD-RE disc find, and whether this last option was actually an improvement. Is archiving your most valued CDs to several BluRay discs for archival purposes a viable option ? Alex
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Apr 22, 2012 1:00:39 GMT
With HDDs quite cheap, the best option is still with those. In fact, I was on the way to consider a high performance HDD NAS server until you know what kept me at the side line now ..............
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 1:14:55 GMT
With HDDs quite cheap, the best option is still with those. In fact, I was on the way to consider a high performance HDD NAS server until you know what kept me at the side line now .............. Chong Sorry, but I don't agree. Many people find that HDDs can become unreliable after 3 -5 years of regular use.Besides which, in my experience, unless you use them with a decent linear PSU, there will be degradation, whether internal or external use.I am taiking about safe archival off site, like put away in a cupboard for backup purposes, and only about your absolute favourites, not the whole library, many of which may not be played again for years, if ever.Also, when you copy from a HDD to another HDD there will be some degradation despite what some may wish to believe. Alex P.S. Chong Check your email re HFC report.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 1:28:32 GMT
With HDDs quite cheap, the best option is still with those. In fact, I was on the way to consider a high performance HDD NAS server until you know what kept me at the side line now .............. Hi Chong, You are 100% right. My backup drive is only powered up when I actually do the backup, it is then stored away from the computer in case of a disaster. This drive will probably last for 100 years. regards
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 1:36:55 GMT
Chong and only about your absolute favourites, not the whole library, many of which may not be played again for years, if ever. Alex, Just for the record I actually listen to all my CDs, I don't only listen to a few favourites. I do complete backups because I don't want to have spend the time to rerip all my CDs in the event of a hard drive failure. regards
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 1:39:08 GMT
With HDDs quite cheap, the best option is still with those. In fact, I was on the way to consider a high performance HDD NAS server until you know what kept me at the side line now .............. Hi Chong, You are 100% right. My backup drive is only powered up when I actually do the backup, it is then stored away from the computer in case of a disaster. This drive will probably last for 100 years. regards Greg Chong is talking here mainly about a high quality NAS server. Pigs might fly ! ;D If the bearings haven't seized, those cheap and nasty Asian SM electros will most likely be useless, as will the HDD itself because of them.Very few pieces of electronic gear will still be serviceable after far less time in storage. P.S. Yesterday my son tried to re-use a recovered and properly stored PATA HDD from my previous Pentium 4, that had no problems at the time of changing over to my present PC. It was unusable.And yes, he is far more experienced in this area than I am.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Apr 22, 2012 1:57:02 GMT
Sorry, but I don't agree. Many people find that HDDs can become unreliable after 3 -5 years of regular use.Besides which, in my experience, unless you use them with a decent linear PSU, there will be degradation, whether internal or external use.I am taiking about safe archival off site, like put away in a cupboard for backup purposes, and only about your absolute favourites, not the whole library, many of which may not be played again for years, if ever.Also, when you copy from a HDD to another HDD there will be some degradation despite what some may wish to believe. Alex P.S. Chong Check your email re HFC report. Oh, with RAID! Don't need to go pick up and check for errors now and then the discs from the cupboard. Just remote and play if needed. Anyway, those CDR and others also don't last forever. In fact, the idea of they are indestructable for very long gives them an over confident feeling of not checking them for errors before all are gone. Also can be as a backup HDD perspective too and done in the fashion of Greg. More cost effective when stored away and will last equally as long or even longer. But by then, what new storage format has already come out?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 2:07:46 GMT
RAID ? What a joke for long term. Been there, done that. Nothing's for ever ! I have 24K Kodak Gold CD-Rs stated as 300 years, and 24K Kodak Gold DVD-Rs stated as 100 years archival. Do I believe that ? Not any more than anything our political leaders tell you ! ;D All storage medium should be checked regularly so that you can make a new copy before the original becomes useless. Even Hybrid SACDs such as one from Norah Jones can develop problems like little splits at the circumference.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Apr 22, 2012 2:15:38 GMT
I have 24K Kodak Gold CD-Rs stated as 300 years, and 24K Kodak Gold DVD-Rs stated as 100 years archival. Do I believe that ? Not any more than anything our political leaders tell you ! ;D All storage medium should be checked regularly so that you can make a new copy before the original becomes useless. Even Hybrid SACDs such as one from Norah Jones can develop problems like little splits at the circumference. X3!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 2:27:07 GMT
Hi Chong, You are 100% right. My backup drive is only powered up when I actually do the backup, it is then stored away from the computer in case of a disaster. This drive will probably last for 100 years. regards Greg Chong is talking here mainly about a high quality NAS server. Pigs might fly ! ;D If the bearings haven't seized, those cheap and nasty Asian SM electros will most likely be useless, as will the HDD itself because of them.Very few pieces of electronic gear will still be serviceable after far less time in storage. P.S. Yesterday my son tried to re-use a recovered and properly stored PATA HDD from my previous Pentium 4, that had no problems at the time of changing over to my present PC. It was unusable.And yes, he is far more experienced in this area than I am. I am sure if Chong is implementing a high quality NAS then he will also be implementing a high quality backup procedure. Come on Alex, you know what I mean. A device that is not powered up will last as a reliable backup device for many, many years. Far longer than it will be viable option because of changing technology. I cycle my backup drives, I bought a new one a couple of weeks ago and the old one is now the main drive for music. My first backup drive was actually a PATA HDD and I had problems when I upgraded my system and tried using it as an external USB drive on a SATA system. The wav files were actually modified by the operating system. This was proven by listening tests, checksums and looking at the waveform via software. The time stamp and filesize remained unchanged though. The overall sound quality of the files did not degrade but there was noticeable audible (and visible) clicks. I wasn't able to work out exactly what caused the problem but I could in the end replicate it at will. Toss the PATA HDD. regards
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 2:44:23 GMT
Hi Greg And you knew what I meant too. Neither yours nor Chong's posts, have any real bearing on the title of the thread. The original backup files are normally the physical CDs. Many of these earlier ones are likely to have deteriorated due to manufacturing defects such as pinholes due to earlier printing inks and atmospheric conditions, perhaps even a film on them due to escape of minute amounts of gases from the plastic CD case ? (really!) It makes sense to me to back up those more valuable ones with newly burned copies. No electros or moving parts to deteriorate, shock resistant if in the proper storage cases etc. Like HDD storage, not obsolesence proof though. Just like SATA replaced PATA, HDDs from yesteryear are unlikely to be compatible with later technology, perhaps as little as 10 years from now ? Regards Alex
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Post by elysion on Apr 22, 2012 14:53:38 GMT
There is NO digital medium that will last forever. Of course, there are digital media that will last comparatively long. But I guess, everyone will agree that the life of every digital medium will end somewhen. The main advantage of digital media is that we can copy the data from an old medium to a new one. We can also have the same data on more than one medium, what is often called "backup". Since the data is digital, the quality is NOT degraded by copying as long as the media have a real file system that ensures data integrity (an audio CD for example has NO real file system, that's why we have to "rip" the data there and why simple copying is not possible). A CD-ROM containing data has a file system that uses also some space on the media. The same blank CD will have a lower capacity if it is used with a filesystem (for example ISO9660, Joliet, HFS+ etc.) in comparison to an audio CD. The original question in this thread was if BluRay media are suitable for the backup of ripped audio CDs. Of course, BluRay is suitable for that task. The real question is though, if BluRay is the best media for that task. IMO that's mostly a question of value for money and how you'd like to use your archive. From that viewpoint, a good NAS system with at least RAID1 AND an additional backup (RAID is NOT a backup, it only increases the availability of a system) is probably at the moment the best compromise. I know: Some here will probably even question that digital data can be copied without a loss, but I'd advice them to do what they think is right in their opinion. I don't have the intention to change someone's mind (even if they should be wrong). Personally, I'm absolutely sure that digital data can be copied without problems, of course only as long as the used hardware is working correctly. Sure, a dead harddrive won't give good results... Optical media has certainly also the advantage that it is not sensitive to electro-magnetic influences (like harddisks for example). An almost forgotten media is probably still the safest media around for long time storage, but almost no one uses it today: So called MO disk, "MO" means magneto-optical: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optical_driveI've had quite a few MO drives in the past. At the moment, I have only one brand new and unused "Gigamo" drive left. It's a 3.5" device with 1.3GB capacity and a 50-pin Ultra-SCSI interface. Practical use is very limited though (old interface, slow as hell, media is hardy available now and the technology itself is almost dead at the moment). Windows had often problems with MO disks (back in the past) since many MO disks had not a standard sector size of 512 bytes (it was often 2048 bytes). On the Mac plattform, MO drives have been used rather often, but the technology was not cost-effective since the introduction of CD-R's and CD-RW's.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 21:44:58 GMT
Christian Sorry, but I don't agree with you, neither will a couple of dozen RG members and others.Copying the ripped files to another location does degrade them.Recording Engineers Barry Diament (ex Atlantic Records, and now Soundkeeper Records) says that the master sounds better than subsequent copies, despite identical data. He claims the speed that master is burned at also plays a part, with 1 x speed sounding best. The Feb and March issues of TAS, also stated that converting and copying degrades, likewise the report on my findings that were published in in HiFi Critic Vol.6 No.1 by Martin Colloms. Regards Alex
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Apr 22, 2012 23:11:03 GMT
Alex, I KNOW that you don't agree with me on that. That's why I have also added that those that don't agree with me on that should do it like they think it is right. It's absolutely not my intention to start another endless discussion between those that believe in bits and checksums and those that don't. A NAS with a couple of big harddisks and at least RAID1 is at the moment probably one of the better solutions to deal with a lot of data. At least if the buyer believes in digital data integrity. The others are having most likely similar problems as in the analogue universe. BTW: Can you or anyone else explain me why letters in the RG forum posts don't change with time and why everyone sees the same on the forum? It's also digital and the data from the RG forum travels around the globe.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 0:23:02 GMT
Alex, I KNOW that you don't agree with me on that. That's why I have also added that those that don't agree with me on that should do it like they think it is right. It's absolutely not my intention to start another endless discussion between those that believe in bits and checksums and those that don't. A NAS with a couple of big harddisks and at least RAID1 is at the moment probably one of the better solutions to deal with a lot of data. At least if the buyer believes in digital data integrity. The others are having most likely similar problems as in the analogue universe. BTW: Can you or anyone else explain me why letters in the RG forum posts don't change with time and why everyone sees the same on the forum? It's also digital and the data from the RG forum travels around the globe. Christian I forgot to mention that recently in the jPlay Forum, "screenmusicargentina" reported similar to me, without knowing about my reports, and even uploaded a couple of original guitar music files with identical check sums. Marcin, the co-developer of jPlay which plays files on your favourite OS from system memory has already verified my claims after extensive tests with him under controlled conditiuons, including P.C. restarts. Unlike some smart arses who try to make me look stupid with comments of "ghost bits" etc. I have never claimed that the binary bits have changed. People like you work with digital in areas where minute timing differences,( PSU induced "Jitter"etc.) don't matter. So, no planes are going to fall out of the sky, recent model cars with engine management systems, will still work, and failed traffic lights won't cause gridlock, because of what more and more people are now finding.As for your beloved DBTs, they have now been debunked by an eminently qualified Professor in a recent post in C.A. I provided that link in another thread this morning. BTW, even RG had to be reloaded very recently. All threads had Zero posts and I was the only member showing. Regards Alex
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Apr 23, 2012 0:59:42 GMT
I've seen that. The interface had chance then somewhat (with entries like "user of the month"). I guess they've been testing some future changes. It's nothing really unusual. Most websites need periodic maintenance and ProBoards is well known to change things quite often (remember the Gigya Socialize crap with Facebook login etc.?). Then media for archiving would also not be affected. You're implying then that it would be relevant for music playback and not for storage. Timinig is almost irrelevant for storage alone. Anyway, I'm almost sure that we will never completely agree on this topic. But I still like you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 1:09:41 GMT
Christian You are putting words in my mouth again. I certainly do however appreciate your expertise in the normal digital areas where timing etc. is not so critical. It's also interesting to see the many full on posts from fairly experienced C.A. members re their highly expensive USB leads, and even forceful claims about one particular brand of coax SPDIF lead sounding quite a bit better. Apogee wyde eye cable www.apogeedigital.com/products/cables.phpRegards Alex P.S. If you get the kind of globe trotting job that your qualifications suggest you should be capable of grabbing, look me up in Sydney (if I haven't croaked) and I will demonstrate to you the error of your ways! ;D
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Apr 23, 2012 17:41:04 GMT
Alex, let us simply agree, that we don't agree... I have no intention to find a job outside Switzerland and I guess that my qualification was not a problem so far. (I'm quite sure that I'd get fired instantly in IT if I'd tell that two files with the same checksums don't behave equal.) But like I have stated above, it's NOT my intention to start another fight. I really appreciate your knowledge, but it seems that we don't agree on everything. IMO that's not a problem. No one forces us to agree on everything. And IF I have the time and money to visit you in Australia, I'd be much more interested to have some solder practice with you. In the last few months, I've had not the time AND the location for soldering. Perhaps I'll have more time for that in the next few months (hopefully I have not...), but I still have to find a suitable workshop/location for soldering. Soldering is a no-no in my apartment. That's disappointing since I have most of the needed equipment already here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 21:14:17 GMT
Christian I have 4 friends that work in IT and have heard the differences, but they probably wouldn't be game to tell their bosses either. Regards Alex
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